On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:37:47 +0000 (UTC),
(Melanie L Chang) wrote:

Do you mean you longe them the way you would a horse?


I think so. Knowing little about horses, it's an assumption.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

In article ,
Janet B wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:37:47 +0000 (UTC),
(Melanie L Chang) wrote:
Do you mean you longe them the way you would a horse?
I think so. Knowing little about horses, it's an assumption.

You longe horses in a circle, and try to work on relaxation
and gait quality.

Do you do "Choose to heel" exercises?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

"[Social Security] will be bust in 10 years" -- George Bush, in 1978

On 1 Mar 2005 08:24:09 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:


You longe horses in a circle, and try to work on relaxation
and gait quality.

Do you do "Choose to heel" exercises?


ok, not doing a longe in a circle - changing direction to make the dog
responsible for finding heel position, rather than nagging with collar
popping or luring with food or toys. I;ve seen "choose to heel"
described in different ways, so I'm not sure how to answer that. But
yes, doing longe work with a dog helps them figure out that they
better pay attention because the crazy human takes off in another
direction, and praise comes (at least from me) for being in the right
place - heel position. It's Koehler.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

Janet B wrote in
:

But
yes, doing longe work with a dog helps them figure out that they
better pay attention because the crazy human takes off in another
direction, and praise comes (at least from me) for being in the right
place - heel position. It's Koehler.


Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!

You meanypants!

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR
arfenarf at hotmail dot com

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:53:09 +0000 (UTC),
(Melanie L Chang) wrote:


Would you mind describing a longing session? It sounds like something
that might be handy for urban dogs.

http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/

I admit to modifying this to some extent, depending on space
constraints, etc. When demonstrating to a class, I'm working in a
smaller area, and usually with a 6' leash. It's not as complete a
"dog decision" as the full Koehler version, but it works. Then I do a
little wandering instead of straight line walking, backing up, moving
side to side - that sort of thing, and dazzle the class with how
quickly a strange dog has learned to pay attention and work with me
;-D.

It's much more useful than trying to start out with a dog at heel, and
popping or treating or cajoling in some way (or being a tree). The
dog learns very fast and effectively and actually works WITH the
handler instead of against the handler. It leads to the dog more
naturally accepting heel position as a default.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

Melanie L Chang wrote:

Janet B ) wrote:

: I think so. Knowing little about horses, it's an assumption.

Would you mind describing a longing session? It sounds like something
that might be handy for urban dogs.

I think Melanie is asking about horse longing, not dog long-lining using
the Koehler method to show the dog that his head gets yanked off if he
doesn't pay attention (sorry, but ptui. Been there, now have a much,
much better way to teach dogs to want to be with me).

Horse longing is using a long line to move the horse around you in
circles at varying gaits. Walk, trot, canter. Most of the time you use a
longe whip in one hand and have the line in the other. I think about a
20-30 foot line. You start training with the horse in close, moving in a
circle, then widen the circle, using the whip (gently) to help the horse
learn to change gaits. It's very important to work both sides equally so
the horse doesn't muscle too much on one side.

I can't imagine it being too difficult to teach the dog to walk, trot,
and canter on command, and it might indeed be a good exercise method for
dogs in cities, etc. It also might be helpful for dogs that are strongly
left or right sided, to help them learn to bend and move easily in both
directions.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:12:19 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:



I think Melanie is asking about horse longing, not dog long-lining using
the Koehler method to show the dog that his head gets yanked off if he
doesn't pay attention (sorry, but ptui. Been there, now have a much,
much better way to teach dogs to want to be with me).

Dogs wanting to BE isn't the issue - dog's HEELING as default is.
I've never yanked a dog's head off.

how do you teach heel as default Robin?




--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

Janet B wrote:

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:12:19 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:



I think Melanie is asking about horse longing, not dog long-lining using
the Koehler method to show the dog that his head gets yanked off if he
doesn't pay attention (sorry, but ptui. Been there, now have a much,
much better way to teach dogs to want to be with me).


Dogs wanting to BE isn't the issue - dog's HEELING as default is.
I've never yanked a dog's head off.

how do you teach heel as default Robin?

My biggest guide to teaching heeling is Dildei and Booth's Schutzhund
Obedience, Training in Drive. That book details how to train a dog to
offer a heel (drive you) to get a desired reward. Most schutzhund
obedience now centers on teaching the heel as a behavior the dog learns
to offer, with tremendous attitude, energy, and attention. Other sources
are the JoAnn Fleming-Plumb tapes, Ivan Balabanov, and the Bernard
Flinks tapes available through Leerburg.

Basically, instead of teaching the dog that if he doesn't pay attention
he will get a correction and bad things will happen; instead of trying
to trick the dog so I can get a correction in to teach him this, I teach
it from the opposite perspective--if the dog offers me what I want, very
good things happen.

I teach a very high desire for a particular toy, and I have certain toys
that are only seen when I'm going to play with my dog. When the dog has
learned to be practically hysterical with excitement when she sees the
toy because she knows a fabulous game is going to start, I then simply
put the toy on my left shoulder and walk a few steps. The moment she
falls into line, I drop the toy. I then transition, over time, to having
the toy under my arm, to having it invisible under my arm, to
randomizing the toy drops, to asking her to offer more and more accuracy
in order to get the drop. I don't need a leash for this and rarely use
one--the dog is glued to me, actively engaged in figuring out what she
needs to do to get me to drop that toy. I leave it up to the dog to
figure that out and to work to get it. It starts out being pretty easy
to get the toy, then gets harder and harder. Over time, the toy is faded
completely until the dog can heel under huge distraction (gunshots,
crowds, etc.) without so much as a flicker. I can heel Cala through a
crowd and halt so close to a total stranger that her head and ears are
plastered to his leg, and she literally will not flick an ear or blink.

Properly drive trained dogs can heel under the most distracting and
stressful situations--heel into gunfire, heel next to a bad guy they
know is going to offer them a bite. They offer the heel as a default
behavior. In fact, one of my problems with Viva in agility has been that
when she gets confused she comes roaring in and slams into heel
position, offering me a heel to try to push me to give her what she
wants--better direction on the course.

Clicker and food training can also work for this, but even if I start a
puppy with food, I prefer to transition to a toy because prey/toy drive
is a more active and intense drive in most dogs than food drive. There's
loads more to it, this doesn't even qualify for the reader's digest
version it's so lacking in detail. But I hope you get the gist. The
books and tapes referenced above go into much more detail.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:23:03 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:

There's
loads more to it, this doesn't even qualify for the reader's digest
version it's so lacking in detail. But I hope you get the gist. The
books and tapes referenced above go into much more detail.


thanks. i;ve seen some dildei tapes, but not the others.

I do want to say that when I do longe line work, *I* DO praise for
figuring it out, which usually at least BEGINS rather quickly. I
don't know tht die-hard koehlerites do.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...ence/my_photos

not dog long-lining using
the Koehler method to show the dog that his head gets yanked off if he
doesn't pay attention (sorry, but ptui. Been there, now have a much,
much better way to teach dogs to want to be with me).


ITA, been there and done that and have found a much easier and faster
way without having to rely on a collar OR leash Much easier on the
dogs neck and my arms