"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...



: I need a good front for my dog to land on. I"ve yet to hear a
: 'working' BC breeder talk about improving fronts on their lines.
: {Doesn't mean they don't, just that I haven't heard it.} Only work,
: work, work. Which is fine for herding, I guess, shrug but it won't
: work for me. I need a strong front assembly. {Among other things, but
: it's simpler to just discuss fronts.}

Then why do you need a Border Collie, if your requirements are really
that generic? And if all you need is a good front assembly, isn't it
possible to evaluate the sire and dam and pup in this respect from a
well-bred working litter?

That doesn't address the point. The point is that there are few to no
herding-only breeders that *I* know of who are breeding for sound anything.
And I happen to know a rather alarming number of dogs from working stock,
import bloodlines, actually doing herding, etc. who have serious
conformational and health issues. Epilepsy, bad temperaments, and a truly
astounding number of orthopedic problems--hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia,
OCD, knee problems--you name it. All from people who are in the McCaig camp
of "we don't need to test for anything because our working bred dogs
couldn't work if they had problems." Um, no, not exactly...

: Well, no. Bring up American Show Shepherds, and I tend to get a little
: red in the face, but those dogs don't really work.

Right. Agility isn't work either. It's a game.


Like herding trials aren't a game??? Give me a break. Unless you own a
big-ass bunch of sheep, make your living off sheep, and use your dogs to
work said sheep, then herding competitions are a game. Sure, it's a
different game and it's a bigger game--but it's still a game. I agree with
you that herding and agility require different skill sets. But before you
start totally dismissing agility, perhaps you should try trialling at a
higher level than you currently do. I've been training dogs for a long time,
and I've realized that agility is probably the most difficult thing I've
ever trained. Looks easy, IS rather easy at the lower levels, is incredibly
difficult if you want to have a top dog.


The vast majority of dog owners only want something that is cuddly and
easy to housebreak and won't shed too much. Do we really have to be
governed only by the lowest or most common denominator? This is another
red herring. Is there a reason why you think working Border Collies are
not selected for the qualities described above? A well-bred working dog
is selected far more rigorously for these qualities than a generic sport
dog would be.

Are they? I see lots of very poor temperaments in working/herding bred BCs,
mostly completely spooky to downright people and dog aggressive.

I actually agree with you Melanie that herding ability shouldn't be lost.
But I also agree with Deb. I don't see agility as the curse of the working
BC. I see barbie collies as the curse of the working BC, but not agility.

"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
Robin Nuttall ) wrote:

: That doesn't address the point. The point is that there are few to no
: herding-only breeders that *I* know of who are breeding for sound
anything.

We know different breeders, I guess. The serious breeders I know would
not be satisfied with producing unsound dogs.
I'm glad, truly. That's not been the experience I've seen from this area,
that's for sure. I agree that a properly bred working BC is a truly
outstanding dog--but I'm not sure that the properly bred BC that's used for
agility is necessarily less outstanding.

: All from people who are in the McCaig camp
: of "we don't need to test for anything because our working bred dogs
: couldn't work if they had problems." Um, no, not exactly...

Well, I can't speak for Donald McCaig (although he is a real nice guy, I
can't say I know him very well and he probably wouldn't recognize me if
he saw me on the street) but this is what he said on CanGen:

snip

It is a logical argument. I can see why you might disagree with him but
it isn't the same thing as what you said above.

My recollections of his writings come from reading him for over 2 years on
cangen, not just a single post. This was in the days before the death of
Dr. Armstrong. He certainly may have changed his tune, but in those days he
actively scoffed at people who did things like hip testing, and said that no
working dog would be able to do that. In fact, he stated outright that hip
dysplasia simply wasn't a problem in working BCs. Something I disagree with
obviously...

You're right. Agility is very difficult, and being much more involved in
hobby herding than in agility, my perspective is going to be lopsided. I
didn't mean to dismiss agility. I mean no value judgment by calling one
thing "work" and another "not work." Only that the activities are
qualitatively different and require different skill sets, as you said.
We don't disagree on these points.

Thank you.

: Are they? I see lots of very poor temperaments in working/herding bred
BCs,
: mostly completely spooky to downright people and dog aggressive.

Again, my experience is very -- VASTLY -- different. Do you really think,
if this is what the population of working dogs I know looked like, I would
have chosen my second dog from it? That wouldn't have been fair to me and
especially wouldn't have been fair to Solo. I suspect that the dogs you
see may be more like Solo -- bred like him -- he's what a lot of
sport/conformation people would call "working bred" but he isn't really,
he's random bred (possibly color bred) from working lines. Very often, I
have found that sports people use "working lines" as a shorthand for "not
conformation lines" when referring to Border Collies, but that doesn't
mean the dogs are well-bred sheepdogs. Of course, now I'm putting words
in your mouth, and I could be wrong.

I'm too far on the outside to know. I only know what some people in my area
are getting, and they are saying these dogs are directly from imported
working stock, and that the parents/ancestors are used on sheep--are actual
herding dogs. I agree that this isn't proper temperament, but I think we can
both agree that bad temperament happens whether people do herding with it or
do agility with it, or just trot around a conformation ring with it. I think
it's a very poor idea to elevate all herding people up to a higher level
just because they herd.


I guess I just don't get it, because a Border Collie that isn't bred to
work stock is, to me, interchangeable with a whole lot of other breeds of
dog. And they're really cool breeds, that I like, incidentally. But
they're different. I know everyone thinks their breed is special. But
you know... sometimes they really are special.

But as a non-BC owner, I can state categorically that simply isn't true.
Look. The BC is absolutely, positively, NOT the breed for me. You couldn't
give me one, I wouldn't have one on a platter. However, no single person I
know thinks the BC is interchangeable with any other breed, much less a
"whole lot" of other breeds. Perhaps you don't see it because (no offense)
you haven't been around a tremendous number of breeds for a lot of years
like I have. Having been training my own dogs since the early 80s, and
having been to hundreds of conformation shows, obedience trials, and now
agility trials, I can tell you that the BC is absolutely distinct in
character. Nobody can ever mistake it for anything but a BC. Well, except
for those clunky fluffy things that go around the conformation ring.* I
honestly don't see that changing any time soon, and I don't see the agility
breeders changing it. It's simply not going to happen, especially since the
number of BCs bred outside AKC simply dwarfs the number bred for AKC events.

And no, I don't think you can compare it to the show Shepherd. Or at least,
you can't make a comparison with agility BCs and show shepherds. You might
be able to compare Barbie Collies and Show Shepherds.

*Caveat--I have seen some conformation BCs who have lovely temperaments, and
know several who are doing well in herding competitions and even some who
are used every day on real stock. But I think we all know the dogs I'm
thinking of as barbies...

"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
Robin Nuttall ) wrote:

: That doesn't address the point. The point is that there are few to no
: herding-only breeders that *I* know of who are breeding for sound
anything.

We know different breeders, I guess. The serious breeders I know would
not be satisfied with producing unsound dogs.
I'm glad, truly. That's not been the experience I've seen from this area,
that's for sure. I agree that a properly bred working BC is a truly
outstanding dog--but I'm not sure that the properly bred BC that's used for
agility is necessarily less outstanding.

: All from people who are in the McCaig camp
: of "we don't need to test for anything because our working bred dogs
: couldn't work if they had problems." Um, no, not exactly...

Well, I can't speak for Donald McCaig (although he is a real nice guy, I
can't say I know him very well and he probably wouldn't recognize me if
he saw me on the street) but this is what he said on CanGen:

snip

It is a logical argument. I can see why you might disagree with him but
it isn't the same thing as what you said above.

My recollections of his writings come from reading him for over 2 years on
cangen, not just a single post. This was in the days before the death of
Dr. Armstrong. He certainly may have changed his tune, but in those days he
actively scoffed at people who did things like hip testing, and said that no
working dog would be able to do that. In fact, he stated outright that hip
dysplasia simply wasn't a problem in working BCs. Something I disagree with
obviously...

You're right. Agility is very difficult, and being much more involved in
hobby herding than in agility, my perspective is going to be lopsided. I
didn't mean to dismiss agility. I mean no value judgment by calling one
thing "work" and another "not work." Only that the activities are
qualitatively different and require different skill sets, as you said.
We don't disagree on these points.

Thank you.

: Are they? I see lots of very poor temperaments in working/herding bred
BCs,
: mostly completely spooky to downright people and dog aggressive.

Again, my experience is very -- VASTLY -- different. Do you really think,
if this is what the population of working dogs I know looked like, I would
have chosen my second dog from it? That wouldn't have been fair to me and
especially wouldn't have been fair to Solo. I suspect that the dogs you
see may be more like Solo -- bred like him -- he's what a lot of
sport/conformation people would call "working bred" but he isn't really,
he's random bred (possibly color bred) from working lines. Very often, I
have found that sports people use "working lines" as a shorthand for "not
conformation lines" when referring to Border Collies, but that doesn't
mean the dogs are well-bred sheepdogs. Of course, now I'm putting words
in your mouth, and I could be wrong.

I'm too far on the outside to know. I only know what some people in my area
are getting, and they are saying these dogs are directly from imported
working stock, and that the parents/ancestors are used on sheep--are actual
herding dogs. I agree that this isn't proper temperament, but I think we can
both agree that bad temperament happens whether people do herding with it or
do agility with it, or just trot around a conformation ring with it. I think
it's a very poor idea to elevate all herding people up to a higher level
just because they herd.


I guess I just don't get it, because a Border Collie that isn't bred to
work stock is, to me, interchangeable with a whole lot of other breeds of
dog. And they're really cool breeds, that I like, incidentally. But
they're different. I know everyone thinks their breed is special. But
you know... sometimes they really are special.

But as a non-BC owner, I can state categorically that simply isn't true.
Look. The BC is absolutely, positively, NOT the breed for me. You couldn't
give me one, I wouldn't have one on a platter. However, no single person I
know thinks the BC is interchangeable with any other breed, much less a
"whole lot" of other breeds. Perhaps you don't see it because (no offense)
you haven't been around a tremendous number of breeds for a lot of years
like I have. Having been training my own dogs since the early 80s, and
having been to hundreds of conformation shows, obedience trials, and now
agility trials, I can tell you that the BC is absolutely distinct in
character. Nobody can ever mistake it for anything but a BC. Well, except
for those clunky fluffy things that go around the conformation ring.* I
honestly don't see that changing any time soon, and I don't see the agility
breeders changing it. It's simply not going to happen, especially since the
number of BCs bred outside AKC simply dwarfs the number bred for AKC events.

And no, I don't think you can compare it to the show Shepherd. Or at least,
you can't make a comparison with agility BCs and show shepherds. You might
be able to compare Barbie Collies and Show Shepherds.

*Caveat--I have seen some conformation BCs who have lovely temperaments, and
know several who are doing well in herding competitions and even some who
are used every day on real stock. But I think we all know the dogs I'm
thinking of as barbies...

But it seems like there's a new kennel specializing in
"performance-bred" "Borders" in fashion colors popping up every day.

Hrm. Red ones with green eyes, maybe?

But it seems like there's a new kennel specializing in
"performance-bred" "Borders" in fashion colors popping up every day.

Hrm. Red ones with green eyes, maybe?

Robin Nuttall wrote:

"Looks easy, IS rather easy at the lower levels, is incredibly
difficult if you want to have a top dog.

It doesn't look easy to me but I know I am as dumb as a box of rocks.g
Seriously to me Agility does not look easy because of
the left and right thing that I "do" have an issue with.

It is fun but it is also pretty hard. And I admire any and ALL
of you who compete at top levels. In fact I am in "awe"
similar to the "awe" I am when I see Schutzhund trainers
like Gary Hanrahan. But I have to admit all and all
Agility is much harder. The traps can be very difficult
especially for the likes of me. g


Gwen

Robin Nuttall wrote:

"Looks easy, IS rather easy at the lower levels, is incredibly
difficult if you want to have a top dog.

It doesn't look easy to me but I know I am as dumb as a box of rocks.g
Seriously to me Agility does not look easy because of
the left and right thing that I "do" have an issue with.

It is fun but it is also pretty hard. And I admire any and ALL
of you who compete at top levels. In fact I am in "awe"
similar to the "awe" I am when I see Schutzhund trainers
like Gary Hanrahan. But I have to admit all and all
Agility is much harder. The traps can be very difficult
especially for the likes of me. g


Gwen

From: (Robin=A0Nuttall)
And I happen to know a rather alarming number of dogs from working
stock, import bloodlines, actually doing herding, etc. who have serious
conformational and health issues. Epilepsy, bad temperaments, and a
truly astounding number of orthopedic problems--hip dysplasia, elbow
dysplasia, OCD, knee problems--you name it.

That's what I'm seeing, also.

I've been training dogs for a long time, and I've realized that
agility is probably the most difficult thing I've ever trained.

Absolutely! And every time a judge comes up with a different twist, a
new challenge, we have something else to train for... to perfect.

Debbie

From: (Robin=A0Nuttall)
And I happen to know a rather alarming number of dogs from working
stock, import bloodlines, actually doing herding, etc. who have serious
conformational and health issues. Epilepsy, bad temperaments, and a
truly astounding number of orthopedic problems--hip dysplasia, elbow
dysplasia, OCD, knee problems--you name it.

That's what I'm seeing, also.

I've been training dogs for a long time, and I've realized that
agility is probably the most difficult thing I've ever trained.

Absolutely! And every time a judge comes up with a different twist, a
new challenge, we have something else to train for... to perfect.

Debbie

Robin Nuttall wrote:

I'd get totally hammered for saying this on the dobe lists, but I
think agility is probably harder than schutzhund. Schutzhund dogs get to
train on their trial field.

Agility is definitely harder than Schutzhund as far as I am concerned.

Hands down.

Gwen