We recently adopted a stray border collie/lab mix that showed up lost
at my dad's house. His Newfoundland attacked her with full intentions
to kill her. We were not able to locate her owners and she couldn't
stay at my dad's.

She seems to be very intelligent and well trained. She usually only
needs to be corrected once. She doesn't have a strong herding
instinct and works very well with the kids. The only problem, she is
very sensitive and if she feels neglected or thinks she is abused, she
jumps the fence and takes off. We gave her a bath and found out she
hates water (felt abused), off she goes. She also will take off if I
fail to walk her at least twice a day. We have a 1/4 acre yard, she
has plenty of room to exercise and she prefers to be outside.

She never goes far, and seems to return on her own, but in a busy
city, this is dangerous. She knows her boundaries and only takes off
if she is punished or doesn't get her walks.

Would an invisible fence help keep her contained? Or is there
something I can try with training. My fear with invisible fence is
that she would perceive it as punishment and take off for good.

Thank you for your suggestions.

She is a mix of one *extremely* active breed that really isn't suited for
most homes and a moderately active one.

She needs *a lot* of exercise, it sounds like when she gets the exercise she
needs she has no inclination to run off. I'd bet she left her old home and
made her way to your dad's b/c she wasn't getting the exercise she needs,
few Border Collies do.

If you cannot devote the amount of time needed to fulfill her exercise
requirement you should think about finding her a home where they can.
Agility/obedience competitors, joggers, cyclists, anyone who spends a great
deal of time doing an activity that can include a dog make the best homes
for Border Collies, IMO.

You could probably force her to stay on the property without giving her the
proper amount of exercise but the frustration will express itself in a
variety of nasty ways--barking, chewing up the house, going to the bathroom
in the house, digging, self-mutilation, etc.

--
Kristen &
Kali CD, CGC, TDI, TT
http://www.kristenandkali.com



"Virginia" wrote in message
om...
We recently adopted a stray border collie/lab mix that showed up lost
at my dad's house. His Newfoundland attacked her with full intentions
to kill her. We were not able to locate her owners and she couldn't
stay at my dad's.

She seems to be very intelligent and well trained. She usually only
needs to be corrected once. She doesn't have a strong herding
instinct and works very well with the kids. The only problem, she is
very sensitive and if she feels neglected or thinks she is abused, she
jumps the fence and takes off. We gave her a bath and found out she
hates water (felt abused), off she goes. She also will take off if I
fail to walk her at least twice a day. We have a 1/4 acre yard, she
has plenty of room to exercise and she prefers to be outside.

She never goes far, and seems to return on her own, but in a busy
city, this is dangerous. She knows her boundaries and only takes off
if she is punished or doesn't get her walks.

Would an invisible fence help keep her contained? Or is there
something I can try with training. My fear with invisible fence is
that she would perceive it as punishment and take off for good.

Thank you for your suggestions.

She is a mix of one *extremely* active breed that really isn't suited for
most homes and a moderately active one.

She needs *a lot* of exercise, it sounds like when she gets the exercise she
needs she has no inclination to run off. I'd bet she left her old home and
made her way to your dad's b/c she wasn't getting the exercise she needs,
few Border Collies do.

If you cannot devote the amount of time needed to fulfill her exercise
requirement you should think about finding her a home where they can.
Agility/obedience competitors, joggers, cyclists, anyone who spends a great
deal of time doing an activity that can include a dog make the best homes
for Border Collies, IMO.

You could probably force her to stay on the property without giving her the
proper amount of exercise but the frustration will express itself in a
variety of nasty ways--barking, chewing up the house, going to the bathroom
in the house, digging, self-mutilation, etc.

--
Kristen &
Kali CD, CGC, TDI, TT
http://www.kristenandkali.com



"Virginia" wrote in message
om...
We recently adopted a stray border collie/lab mix that showed up lost
at my dad's house. His Newfoundland attacked her with full intentions
to kill her. We were not able to locate her owners and she couldn't
stay at my dad's.

She seems to be very intelligent and well trained. She usually only
needs to be corrected once. She doesn't have a strong herding
instinct and works very well with the kids. The only problem, she is
very sensitive and if she feels neglected or thinks she is abused, she
jumps the fence and takes off. We gave her a bath and found out she
hates water (felt abused), off she goes. She also will take off if I
fail to walk her at least twice a day. We have a 1/4 acre yard, she
has plenty of room to exercise and she prefers to be outside.

She never goes far, and seems to return on her own, but in a busy
city, this is dangerous. She knows her boundaries and only takes off
if she is punished or doesn't get her walks.

Would an invisible fence help keep her contained? Or is there
something I can try with training. My fear with invisible fence is
that she would perceive it as punishment and take off for good.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Virginia wrote:

Would an invisible fence help keep her contained? Or is there
something I can try with training. My fear with invisible fence is
that she would perceive it as punishment and take off for good.

You don't really know what your dog is feeling. Lots of dogs don't like
baths. Whether or not your dog is feeling abused when she gets once is
a matter of conjecture. The same is true of why she jumps the fence.
She could feel abused or negelected, but more likely she doesn't
perceive the fence as something designed to keep her in the yard. Since
she can jump it easily, she might think it is a fun hurdle that you put
there for her amusement.

The fact that she responds to you, learns easily and only needs to be
corrected once speaks volumes for the fact that you already have a good
relationship with your dog. Dogs that feel neglected and abused aren't
that well behaved. Those dogs just act scared all the time and can't
learn well.

Border collies and labs are certainly 2 dogs that can benefit from lots
of physical and mental exercise. That will certainly help, but your
immediate question is about using an invisible fence in conjunction with
your physical fence to keep her safely in your yard. Assuming you're
not just throwing her in the yard and expecting her to stay there
amusing hersef, I think it is a good idea. Here's an old post of mine
on the subject:

Our yard is fenced in with a chain link fence, the neighbors' wood slat fence
and
the house itself. You'd think it was solid all the way around with no way to
escape, but Cubbe was finding escapes. We'd find the hole, fix it, think
everything was O.K. again, relax and then discover that Cubbe had found another
way out. She loved her romps through the neighborhood that terrified us.
(We're near a busy street.)

We reinforced the physical fence with an invisible one. This is the type where
the wire plugs in to an electrical outlet (ours goes in to the basement through
the bulkhead), and the dog wears a special battery operated collar which beeps
when it gets too close to the wire and zaps when it gets closer still. We ran
the wire just inside the physical fence so she can get within a few feet of it
and still run around her yard.

Cubbe is only out in the yard when she asks to go out and when someone is home.
She's not closely supervised, but we do check on her often.

We're very satisfied with the way this works. We followed the instructions that
came with the fence (an off-brand) about teaching Cubbe where the wire is. The
instructions involved putting up little white flags so there would be a visual
cue as well as the beep to tell her where the wire is. The white flags were
removed over time. Cubbe got zapped exactly twice. That was years ago. Now
she runs around her yard chasing squirrels enjoying herself.

I'd call the fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that
people can debate all day so I won't touch that one. There are people who would
call a regular chain link fence inhumane.

--Lia

Virginia wrote:

Would an invisible fence help keep her contained? Or is there
something I can try with training. My fear with invisible fence is
that she would perceive it as punishment and take off for good.

You don't really know what your dog is feeling. Lots of dogs don't like
baths. Whether or not your dog is feeling abused when she gets once is
a matter of conjecture. The same is true of why she jumps the fence.
She could feel abused or negelected, but more likely she doesn't
perceive the fence as something designed to keep her in the yard. Since
she can jump it easily, she might think it is a fun hurdle that you put
there for her amusement.

The fact that she responds to you, learns easily and only needs to be
corrected once speaks volumes for the fact that you already have a good
relationship with your dog. Dogs that feel neglected and abused aren't
that well behaved. Those dogs just act scared all the time and can't
learn well.

Border collies and labs are certainly 2 dogs that can benefit from lots
of physical and mental exercise. That will certainly help, but your
immediate question is about using an invisible fence in conjunction with
your physical fence to keep her safely in your yard. Assuming you're
not just throwing her in the yard and expecting her to stay there
amusing hersef, I think it is a good idea. Here's an old post of mine
on the subject:

Our yard is fenced in with a chain link fence, the neighbors' wood slat fence
and
the house itself. You'd think it was solid all the way around with no way to
escape, but Cubbe was finding escapes. We'd find the hole, fix it, think
everything was O.K. again, relax and then discover that Cubbe had found another
way out. She loved her romps through the neighborhood that terrified us.
(We're near a busy street.)

We reinforced the physical fence with an invisible one. This is the type where
the wire plugs in to an electrical outlet (ours goes in to the basement through
the bulkhead), and the dog wears a special battery operated collar which beeps
when it gets too close to the wire and zaps when it gets closer still. We ran
the wire just inside the physical fence so she can get within a few feet of it
and still run around her yard.

Cubbe is only out in the yard when she asks to go out and when someone is home.
She's not closely supervised, but we do check on her often.

We're very satisfied with the way this works. We followed the instructions that
came with the fence (an off-brand) about teaching Cubbe where the wire is. The
instructions involved putting up little white flags so there would be a visual
cue as well as the beep to tell her where the wire is. The white flags were
removed over time. Cubbe got zapped exactly twice. That was years ago. Now
she runs around her yard chasing squirrels enjoying herself.

I'd call the fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that
people can debate all day so I won't touch that one. There are people who would
call a regular chain link fence inhumane.

--Lia

Julia Altshuler wrote:

Virginia wrote:


Would an invisible fence help keep her contained? Or is there
something I can try with training. My fear with invisible fence is
that she would perceive it as punishment and take off for good.


You don't really know what your dog is feeling. Lots of dogs don't like
baths. Whether or not your dog is feeling abused when she gets once is
a matter of conjecture. The same is true of why she jumps the fence.
She could feel abused or negelected, but more likely she doesn't
perceive the fence as something designed to keep her in the yard. Since
she can jump it easily, she might think it is a fun hurdle that you put
there for her amusement.

The fact that she responds to you, learns easily and only needs to be
corrected once speaks volumes for the fact that you already have a good
relationship with your dog. Dogs that feel neglected and abused aren't
that well behaved. Those dogs just act scared all the time and can't
learn well.

Border collies and labs are certainly 2 dogs that can benefit from lots
of physical and mental exercise.

make sure they get the recommended 45 minutes/day, as per the JULIA
METHOD OF DOG TRAINING



BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!

the michael/dogtv.com networks method of offleash dog training in the
real world

http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm


======================================
and now, for something completely different,
the LIA METHOD OF DOG (BWHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!) TRAINING


THE LIA METHOD OF DOG TRAINING
all methods by Julia Altshuler
edited by michael patton of dogtv.com networks
copyright 2001-2002


You too can have a dog trained just like Cubbe if you spend
three years training just like Lia did. [editor's note]

Dog Training, The Lia Way (featuring fear, ignorance,
incompetence avoidance, shock containment devices and
clicker training) [editor's note]



PART I (laying the groundwork) [editor's note]

---------------------------------------------------
From: Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
View: Complete Thread (47 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first
time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we
first got her before she'd had any training and before we
got the electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored
clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible
for us. She had a blast running free and chasing whatever
she wanted. For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as
we tried to catch her. Luckily there wasn't too much
traffic yesterday morning. It had snowed, and the
streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her
when she was preoccupied with her head down a hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood.She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She
gets daily indoor clickertraining sessions. She has
perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent
treats for those recalls. She gets plenty of time to run
free in the backyard. Her recalls are less reliable
there, but I've been working on them. I haven't been as
good about introducing the variable reinforcement there,
but I have been good about making sure that she's
never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat
or praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think
I'm a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask
y'all for some help in correcting my mistakes, and while
I don't mind criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping
you'll concentrate on what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time.
I'd gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave
when she escaped straight through the front door and right
in front of our noses. She was still wearing the zap
collar, but the battery was low. She gave a small yip
when she went over the wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap
collar now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the
backdoor to come in when I went to call her. From her
excited behavior, I could tell that she fully expected
to be let out the front door again so she could have
another fun romp in theneighborhood. I'm so filled with
anxiety from yesterday's escapade that I keep checking for
her every time I open the door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse about coming
when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows when
she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could
zap her when she's near certain windows inside. If I let
her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can
I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the
front door with her leash on? I don't want her to become
afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it
should happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By
this I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe
because she so obviously freaked when we used leash
corrections and scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting
the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion
once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel
for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for
Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long way since
then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never
been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming.
Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and
were having a blast clicker training her. I was
impressed with how quickly they caughton and how little
correction they needed to be consistent with the clicks
and treats. Cubbe was fine with the children; she always
has been. Just as they were getting ready to go, the 10
year old went to give Cubbe a hug. Cubbe must have felt
threatened and confined because she gave a snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't
frightened at all, and her parents who were also right
there hadn't realized what had happened. I then asked the
snarlee to rub Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that
Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship. I let
Cubbe up and all was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part
of wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments
now. Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I
think it was the right thing to do. So how do I apply
this to dealing with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia
--------------------------------------------------------






PART II (the payoff) [editor's note]

--------------------------------------------------
Subject: nipping aggression in the bud
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 04:20:49 GMT
From: Julia Altshuler
Organization: AT&T Broadband
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior

I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
where there is none. Here's what happened last April the
way I described it to a friend at the time:

I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
at the door when I let Ellie in. She's barky-protective
but then stops barking once Ellie is inside. She's never
shown any real aggression. The other night Ellie and I
went out together to run an errand. Ellie was coming in
the house with packages so I came in first and put Cubbe in
the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could get through the door
more easily. I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was
inside, I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out to
attack the intruder. Ellie was trying to be friendly.
Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
but Ellie was understandably scared. Jim ran out and got
control of Cubbe right away. I got Ellie some alcohol and
a bandage. The scary thing is that, even though the damage
is minor, it does qualify as a bite since Cubbe did mean to
do it. I guess I should just learn from it and never let
Cubbe greet someone like that again, but I'm horribly torn
up. I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog.
Now the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.

Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
room was our neighbor Nicky. I think Nicky is 11 now. He's
known Cubbe since we got her 4 years ago, has always liked
her, petted her and asked to come on walks. Nick lifted his
mask on the porch so I'd know who it was. Then I invited
him into the hall to pet Cubbe. Cubbe snarled and sort of
air snapped at him. Of course Jim was right there so no
damage was done. Nick didn't even have to draw his hand
away, and he didn't get scared. Nothing scares that boy.

I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
thing or not.

Comments please.

BWAAHWAHHAAHAHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!! [editor's note]



Is this a major growing aggression
problem? I'd guess it's territoriality about the house
and yard. What do I do about it? I usually put Cubbe on a
leash when friends come over and then walk her outside while
the friend gets out of her car, and then we walk in
together.She'll still bark when they're in the house and
then calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be doing
something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?

--Lia
---------------------------------------------------------

this concludes the Lia Method of Dog Training
BWAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAA!!!! [editor's note]





this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com




That will certainly help, but your
immediate question is about using an invisible fence in conjunction with
your physical fence to keep her safely in your yard. Assuming you're
not just throwing her in the yard and expecting her to stay there
amusing hersef, I think it is a good idea. Here's an old post of mine
on the subject:


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!
yeah, see above.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!



--Lia

Julia Altshuler wrote:

Virginia wrote:


Would an invisible fence help keep her contained? Or is there
something I can try with training. My fear with invisible fence is
that she would perceive it as punishment and take off for good.


You don't really know what your dog is feeling. Lots of dogs don't like
baths. Whether or not your dog is feeling abused when she gets once is
a matter of conjecture. The same is true of why she jumps the fence.
She could feel abused or negelected, but more likely she doesn't
perceive the fence as something designed to keep her in the yard. Since
she can jump it easily, she might think it is a fun hurdle that you put
there for her amusement.

The fact that she responds to you, learns easily and only needs to be
corrected once speaks volumes for the fact that you already have a good
relationship with your dog. Dogs that feel neglected and abused aren't
that well behaved. Those dogs just act scared all the time and can't
learn well.

Border collies and labs are certainly 2 dogs that can benefit from lots
of physical and mental exercise.

make sure they get the recommended 45 minutes/day, as per the JULIA
METHOD OF DOG TRAINING



BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!

the michael/dogtv.com networks method of offleash dog training in the
real world

http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm
http://dogtv.com/4LANE3.rm


======================================
and now, for something completely different,
the LIA METHOD OF DOG (BWHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!) TRAINING


THE LIA METHOD OF DOG TRAINING
all methods by Julia Altshuler
edited by michael patton of dogtv.com networks
copyright 2001-2002


You too can have a dog trained just like Cubbe if you spend
three years training just like Lia did. [editor's note]

Dog Training, The Lia Way (featuring fear, ignorance,
incompetence avoidance, shock containment devices and
clicker training) [editor's note]



PART I (laying the groundwork) [editor's note]

---------------------------------------------------
From: Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
View: Complete Thread (47 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first
time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we
first got her before she'd had any training and before we
got the electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored
clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible
for us. She had a blast running free and chasing whatever
she wanted. For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as
we tried to catch her. Luckily there wasn't too much
traffic yesterday morning. It had snowed, and the
streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her
when she was preoccupied with her head down a hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood.She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She
gets daily indoor clickertraining sessions. She has
perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent
treats for those recalls. She gets plenty of time to run
free in the backyard. Her recalls are less reliable
there, but I've been working on them. I haven't been as
good about introducing the variable reinforcement there,
but I have been good about making sure that she's
never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat
or praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think
I'm a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask
y'all for some help in correcting my mistakes, and while
I don't mind criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping
you'll concentrate on what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time.
I'd gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave
when she escaped straight through the front door and right
in front of our noses. She was still wearing the zap
collar, but the battery was low. She gave a small yip
when she went over the wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap
collar now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the
backdoor to come in when I went to call her. From her
excited behavior, I could tell that she fully expected
to be let out the front door again so she could have
another fun romp in theneighborhood. I'm so filled with
anxiety from yesterday's escapade that I keep checking for
her every time I open the door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse about coming
when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows when
she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could
zap her when she's near certain windows inside. If I let
her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can
I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the
front door with her leash on? I don't want her to become
afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it
should happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By
this I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe
because she so obviously freaked when we used leash
corrections and scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting
the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion
once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel
for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for
Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long way since
then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never
been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming.
Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and
were having a blast clicker training her. I was
impressed with how quickly they caughton and how little
correction they needed to be consistent with the clicks
and treats. Cubbe was fine with the children; she always
has been. Just as they were getting ready to go, the 10
year old went to give Cubbe a hug. Cubbe must have felt
threatened and confined because she gave a snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't
frightened at all, and her parents who were also right
there hadn't realized what had happened. I then asked the
snarlee to rub Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that
Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship. I let
Cubbe up and all was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part
of wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments
now. Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I
think it was the right thing to do. So how do I apply
this to dealing with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia
--------------------------------------------------------






PART II (the payoff) [editor's note]

--------------------------------------------------
Subject: nipping aggression in the bud
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 04:20:49 GMT
From: Julia Altshuler
Organization: AT&T Broadband
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior

I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
where there is none. Here's what happened last April the
way I described it to a friend at the time:

I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
at the door when I let Ellie in. She's barky-protective
but then stops barking once Ellie is inside. She's never
shown any real aggression. The other night Ellie and I
went out together to run an errand. Ellie was coming in
the house with packages so I came in first and put Cubbe in
the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could get through the door
more easily. I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was
inside, I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out to
attack the intruder. Ellie was trying to be friendly.
Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
but Ellie was understandably scared. Jim ran out and got
control of Cubbe right away. I got Ellie some alcohol and
a bandage. The scary thing is that, even though the damage
is minor, it does qualify as a bite since Cubbe did mean to
do it. I guess I should just learn from it and never let
Cubbe greet someone like that again, but I'm horribly torn
up. I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog.
Now the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.

Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
room was our neighbor Nicky. I think Nicky is 11 now. He's
known Cubbe since we got her 4 years ago, has always liked
her, petted her and asked to come on walks. Nick lifted his
mask on the porch so I'd know who it was. Then I invited
him into the hall to pet Cubbe. Cubbe snarled and sort of
air snapped at him. Of course Jim was right there so no
damage was done. Nick didn't even have to draw his hand
away, and he didn't get scared. Nothing scares that boy.

I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
thing or not.

Comments please.

BWAAHWAHHAAHAHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!! [editor's note]



Is this a major growing aggression
problem? I'd guess it's territoriality about the house
and yard. What do I do about it? I usually put Cubbe on a
leash when friends come over and then walk her outside while
the friend gets out of her car, and then we walk in
together.She'll still bark when they're in the house and
then calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be doing
something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?

--Lia
---------------------------------------------------------

this concludes the Lia Method of Dog Training
BWAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAA!!!! [editor's note]





this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com




That will certainly help, but your
immediate question is about using an invisible fence in conjunction with
your physical fence to keep her safely in your yard. Assuming you're
not just throwing her in the yard and expecting her to stay there
amusing hersef, I think it is a good idea. Here's an old post of mine
on the subject:


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!
yeah, see above.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!



--Lia

Best of luck, I think an IF to back up your existing fence is a great
idea--especially if you are going to keep her as an outdoor dog. Why not
keep her in the house? I misread your post and was under the impression
that she's perfectly happy to stay in the yard at all times when she gets
her exercise and that the IF would be used to keep her in the yard on days
when you couldn't exercise her.

Regarding agility training--there is not better agility dog than a BC. There
are a few dogs at the training club I belong to who have "space issues" and
will snap at a dog who gets into their space. You can attend classes with
this type of dog, you just have to keep her on lead between runs, let other
class members know that she has space issues and keep an eye on her and the
other dogs (people will let their dog walk right up to her) so that they do
not get into her space. Perhaps being in a class will help desensitize her
to being around other dogs.

At our club we've adopted the "Red Bandana Policy". A training camp
somewhere started the red bandana policy to let other people recognize, at a
glance, a dog with space issues. Maybe other training clubs/schools have
adopted this as well and you could put the red bandana on her. Just wanted
to let you know that you could/should give agility a try. BC's are so easy
to train for both agility and obedience, if you try it chances are you'll
have a winner on your hands.

Kristen


"Virginia" wrote in message
om...
Thank you for the advice. I read up on Border Collies and am familiar
with the activity level required to sustain them. I generally walk
her 2 miles in the morning and run a couple of miles each night. I
prefer to leave her outside all day to roam the yard. We have just
about a 1/4 acre in town, which gives her plenty of room to run and a
3 and 5 year old to play with in the evenings. I haven't been able to
interest her in any toys or games. The only thing she likes to do is
be chased around the yard for a stick. The kids and I gang up on her,
she loves dodging us.

I would love to start her with agility, it sounds like a lot of fun.
The only problem is she is shows dog aggression (probably since being
attacked by my dad's dog). She has only nipped at another dog that
started jumping all over her. She didn't even nip enough to hurt or
mark him, but I'm sure most dog owners wouldn't like that. I started
working her with other dogs and she is slowly coming around. Now she
growls with her hair standing on end, then after a few minutes will
settle down and play.

I think the invisible fence is a must, she jumped the fence 3 more
times over Labor Day weekend, once after a squirrel, another time to
come out and play as we talked to a neighbor on the other side, and
once while we were not home and a neighbor took care of her and called
us. There is just too much traffic within range our our house and the
fence is just fun and games to her. I plan to start with the beep
only and see how she does, she seems to learn pretty quickly (except
about the fence). Hopefully we don't have to go beyond that.

Thanks again.

"KrisHur" wrote in message
...
She is a mix of one *extremely* active breed that really isn't suited
for
most homes and a moderately active one.

She needs *a lot* of exercise, it sounds like when she gets the exercise
she
needs she has no inclination to run off. I'd bet she left her old home
and
made her way to your dad's b/c she wasn't getting the exercise she
needs,
few Border Collies do.

If you cannot devote the amount of time needed to fulfill her exercise
requirement you should think about finding her a home where they can.
Agility/obedience competitors, joggers, cyclists, anyone who spends a
great
deal of time doing an activity that can include a dog make the best
homes
for Border Collies, IMO.

You could probably force her to stay on the property without giving her
the
proper amount of exercise but the frustration will express itself in a
variety of nasty ways--barking, chewing up the house, going to the
bathroom
in the house, digging, self-mutilation, etc.

--
Kristen &
Kali CD, CGC, TDI, TT
http://www.kristenandkali.com

Best of luck, I think an IF to back up your existing fence is a great
idea--especially if you are going to keep her as an outdoor dog. Why not
keep her in the house? I misread your post and was under the impression
that she's perfectly happy to stay in the yard at all times when she gets
her exercise and that the IF would be used to keep her in the yard on days
when you couldn't exercise her.

Regarding agility training--there is not better agility dog than a BC. There
are a few dogs at the training club I belong to who have "space issues" and
will snap at a dog who gets into their space. You can attend classes with
this type of dog, you just have to keep her on lead between runs, let other
class members know that she has space issues and keep an eye on her and the
other dogs (people will let their dog walk right up to her) so that they do
not get into her space. Perhaps being in a class will help desensitize her
to being around other dogs.

At our club we've adopted the "Red Bandana Policy". A training camp
somewhere started the red bandana policy to let other people recognize, at a
glance, a dog with space issues. Maybe other training clubs/schools have
adopted this as well and you could put the red bandana on her. Just wanted
to let you know that you could/should give agility a try. BC's are so easy
to train for both agility and obedience, if you try it chances are you'll
have a winner on your hands.

Kristen


"Virginia" wrote in message
om...
Thank you for the advice. I read up on Border Collies and am familiar
with the activity level required to sustain them. I generally walk
her 2 miles in the morning and run a couple of miles each night. I
prefer to leave her outside all day to roam the yard. We have just
about a 1/4 acre in town, which gives her plenty of room to run and a
3 and 5 year old to play with in the evenings. I haven't been able to
interest her in any toys or games. The only thing she likes to do is
be chased around the yard for a stick. The kids and I gang up on her,
she loves dodging us.

I would love to start her with agility, it sounds like a lot of fun.
The only problem is she is shows dog aggression (probably since being
attacked by my dad's dog). She has only nipped at another dog that
started jumping all over her. She didn't even nip enough to hurt or
mark him, but I'm sure most dog owners wouldn't like that. I started
working her with other dogs and she is slowly coming around. Now she
growls with her hair standing on end, then after a few minutes will
settle down and play.

I think the invisible fence is a must, she jumped the fence 3 more
times over Labor Day weekend, once after a squirrel, another time to
come out and play as we talked to a neighbor on the other side, and
once while we were not home and a neighbor took care of her and called
us. There is just too much traffic within range our our house and the
fence is just fun and games to her. I plan to start with the beep
only and see how she does, she seems to learn pretty quickly (except
about the fence). Hopefully we don't have to go beyond that.

Thanks again.

"KrisHur" wrote in message
...
She is a mix of one *extremely* active breed that really isn't suited
for
most homes and a moderately active one.

She needs *a lot* of exercise, it sounds like when she gets the exercise
she
needs she has no inclination to run off. I'd bet she left her old home
and
made her way to your dad's b/c she wasn't getting the exercise she
needs,
few Border Collies do.

If you cannot devote the amount of time needed to fulfill her exercise
requirement you should think about finding her a home where they can.
Agility/obedience competitors, joggers, cyclists, anyone who spends a
great
deal of time doing an activity that can include a dog make the best
homes
for Border Collies, IMO.

You could probably force her to stay on the property without giving her
the
proper amount of exercise but the frustration will express itself in a
variety of nasty ways--barking, chewing up the house, going to the
bathroom
in the house, digging, self-mutilation, etc.

--
Kristen &
Kali CD, CGC, TDI, TT
http://www.kristenandkali.com