I mentioned some of this in the first discussion, and
some in private email; but people are still responding
to my initial message, and there's a lot of discussion
to wade through. So here is the latest.

I've been spending time with Koko, myself.

I've been working lots of overtime, so I often come home late,
and sleep in the guest bedroom so as not to interrupt my wife's
sleep. That's the room where Teenager has moved Koko' cage, so
I let her out and play with her a bit. So far, I can then go to
sleep with Koko closed in the room out of the cage (sometimes
on the bed).

My wife and I also had some time together with Koko this weekend.
We kept Koko with us all day, mostly leashed to me or to living
room furniture.

I bought her a bunch of chew toys. She was pretty much out of
tough or hard things to chew on. I'll try to stop by a butcher
shop before she runs out again.

I don't know why Teenager spells the name this way. AFAIK, Coco
is apropos for a Choc Lab, but Koko doesn't mean anything.

We all talked about Koko on Sunday morning. No more muzzle,
except perhaps when toddlers visit. (Today, we had a three
year old over for several hours and kept Koko around with no
muzzle.) No more putting her outside when we are at home,
except when we go outside, usually to put her on the dog run
grass for a few minutes to take care of her business. No
more letting her near the pool when she is outside. (We may
let her in the pool when we go swimming, but we don't that
much; if we do, we'll make sure she has plenty to drink
before and available during.) Apparently, the cage stays
in the guest bedroom; I'm not fighting that, right now. I
haven't brought up training. I'll wait until the overtime
stops, and then take her myself. They didn't agree about
keeping water available all the time -- regulating it a bit
makes it easier to know when she will need to urinate. When
I spend time with her, I can keep water around and make sure
I take her out often, as I did this weekend and at night last
week. Their arguments about this and about leaving Koko
outside during weekdays (see below) are sound, but I'm open
to more comments about these issues.

Koko appears to be house-trained, because we haven't had an
incident since I started posting to this newsgroup.

I leave at about 6:00 to 6:30 to drop Teenager at school on my
way to work. My wife gets up and leaves between 7:00 and 8:00.
She brings Teenager home at about 16:00. I can try to keep Koko
in our master bathroom while I get ready and while my wife gets
ready; but until she gets home, Koko stays outside. If we keep
her inside, caged or otherwise, we will have a urine problem.
If anyone sees a way around this, please advise.

When we are away for shorter periods, we can keep Koko
in the cage. We tend to stay at home when not at work.

We have a "bridle" that includes a thin strap that fits around
Koko's jaw just below her eyes, though not the length of the
jaw, like a muzzle would. This gives us more control. They
don't see a problem with it; it's not cruel like a muzzle.
Any thoughts on this? I haven't seen them use it for a few
days, but then I'm the one who's been spending time with Koko.
I bought a harness, but I don't see a need for it, and they
don't think it will help any like the bridle does. Who has
seen or used such a device? Comments?

Today, I watched for Teenager to bring Koko to her cage, when
her high school friends came over. I told her no. Of course
that didn't stop her, but I just took Koko's leash from her
and kept the pup with me. At some point, probably in a few
months, we will have an argument about Koko, and Teenager
will have to deal with the fact that she has made the family
pet my responsibility instead of her own.

Summary:

As I see it, the major issues at this point are (1) leaving
Koko outside from 6:00 or 8:00 to 16:00 on weekdays, which
ties in with whether working families should own dogs;
(2) training classes; (3) general training and education;
and perhaps the bridle and water regulation.

Some people who have posted messages to this thread think it's
OK for us to have Koko, as long as we make an effort to make
the pup part of the family and spend most of our time at home
with her. Others think if no one is at home during the day
most of the time, then it's a tragedy in the making.

Does anyone think this summary is inaccurate or incomplete?

Thanks to everyone who contributed and/or contributes
to this discussion. You're all a big help.

--
Best regards,
Mike Krantz


PS -- Notes about Koko's entry into our family:

I was out of town for a few weeks. Teenager was with her
Grandmother for a few days. They saw a breeder from out
of town selling pups at a roadside. Teenager called Mom;
Mom argued a little but gave in and said yes. She was a
month old and is now four (months). I didn't get to see
her until she was two, but she welcomed me into my house as
if I belonged there, so how could I do less for her? ;-)

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:13:00 -0500, "Michael Krantz"
wrote:

I mentioned some of this in the first discussion, and
some in private email; but people are still responding
to my initial message, and there's a lot of discussion
to wade through. So here is the latest.

I've been spending time with Koko, myself.

I've been working lots of overtime, so I often come home late,
and sleep in the guest bedroom so as not to interrupt my wife's
sleep. That's the room where Teenager has moved Koko' cage, so
I let her out and play with her a bit. So far, I can then go to
sleep with Koko closed in the room out of the cage (sometimes
on the bed).

My wife and I also had some time together with Koko this weekend.
We kept Koko with us all day, mostly leashed to me or to living
room furniture.

I bought her a bunch of chew toys. She was pretty much out of
tough or hard things to chew on. I'll try to stop by a butcher
shop before she runs out again.

I don't know why Teenager spells the name this way. AFAIK, Coco
is apropos for a Choc Lab, but Koko doesn't mean anything.

We all talked about Koko on Sunday morning. No more muzzle,
except perhaps when toddlers visit. (Today, we had a three
year old over for several hours and kept Koko around with no
muzzle.) No more putting her outside when we are at home,
except when we go outside, usually to put her on the dog run
grass for a few minutes to take care of her business. No
more letting her near the pool when she is outside. (We may
let her in the pool when we go swimming, but we don't that
much; if we do, we'll make sure she has plenty to drink
before and available during.) Apparently, the cage stays
in the guest bedroom; I'm not fighting that, right now. I
haven't brought up training. I'll wait until the overtime
stops, and then take her myself. They didn't agree about
keeping water available all the time -- regulating it a bit
makes it easier to know when she will need to urinate. When
I spend time with her, I can keep water around and make sure
I take her out often, as I did this weekend and at night last
week. Their arguments about this and about leaving Koko
outside during weekdays (see below) are sound, but I'm open
to more comments about these issues.

Koko appears to be house-trained, because we haven't had an
incident since I started posting to this newsgroup.

I leave at about 6:00 to 6:30 to drop Teenager at school on my
way to work. My wife gets up and leaves between 7:00 and 8:00.
She brings Teenager home at about 16:00. I can try to keep Koko
in our master bathroom while I get ready and while my wife gets
ready; but until she gets home, Koko stays outside. If we keep
her inside, caged or otherwise, we will have a urine problem.
If anyone sees a way around this, please advise.

When we are away for shorter periods, we can keep Koko
in the cage. We tend to stay at home when not at work.

We have a "bridle" that includes a thin strap that fits around
Koko's jaw just below her eyes, though not the length of the
jaw, like a muzzle would. This gives us more control. They
don't see a problem with it; it's not cruel like a muzzle.
Any thoughts on this? I haven't seen them use it for a few
days, but then I'm the one who's been spending time with Koko.
I bought a harness, but I don't see a need for it, and they
don't think it will help any like the bridle does. Who has
seen or used such a device? Comments?

Today, I watched for Teenager to bring Koko to her cage, when
her high school friends came over. I told her no. Of course
that didn't stop her, but I just took Koko's leash from her
and kept the pup with me. At some point, probably in a few
months, we will have an argument about Koko, and Teenager
will have to deal with the fact that she has made the family
pet my responsibility instead of her own.

Summary:

As I see it, the major issues at this point are (1) leaving
Koko outside from 6:00 or 8:00 to 16:00 on weekdays, which
ties in with whether working families should own dogs;
(2) training classes; (3) general training and education;
and perhaps the bridle and water regulation.

Some people who have posted messages to this thread think it's
OK for us to have Koko, as long as we make an effort to make
the pup part of the family and spend most of our time at home
with her. Others think if no one is at home during the day
most of the time, then it's a tragedy in the making.

Does anyone think this summary is inaccurate or incomplete?

Thanks to everyone who contributed and/or contributes
to this discussion. You're all a big help.

It looks as though you've made a lot of progress toward resolving some
of the problems with Koko. You may have posted the answer to this
before, and if so I apologize for the repetition: is there anyone
around, neighbor or kid or otherwise, who come come over halfway
through the day and let Koko out to potty and perhaps for a little
play? That way she wouldn't have to be left outside during the day,
and her water access wouldn't have to be restricted (which isn't an
ideal situation).

Mustang Sally

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:13:00 -0500, "Michael Krantz"
wrote:

I mentioned some of this in the first discussion, and
some in private email; but people are still responding
to my initial message, and there's a lot of discussion
to wade through. So here is the latest.

I've been spending time with Koko, myself.

I've been working lots of overtime, so I often come home late,
and sleep in the guest bedroom so as not to interrupt my wife's
sleep. That's the room where Teenager has moved Koko' cage, so
I let her out and play with her a bit. So far, I can then go to
sleep with Koko closed in the room out of the cage (sometimes
on the bed).

My wife and I also had some time together with Koko this weekend.
We kept Koko with us all day, mostly leashed to me or to living
room furniture.

I bought her a bunch of chew toys. She was pretty much out of
tough or hard things to chew on. I'll try to stop by a butcher
shop before she runs out again.

I don't know why Teenager spells the name this way. AFAIK, Coco
is apropos for a Choc Lab, but Koko doesn't mean anything.

We all talked about Koko on Sunday morning. No more muzzle,
except perhaps when toddlers visit. (Today, we had a three
year old over for several hours and kept Koko around with no
muzzle.) No more putting her outside when we are at home,
except when we go outside, usually to put her on the dog run
grass for a few minutes to take care of her business. No
more letting her near the pool when she is outside. (We may
let her in the pool when we go swimming, but we don't that
much; if we do, we'll make sure she has plenty to drink
before and available during.) Apparently, the cage stays
in the guest bedroom; I'm not fighting that, right now. I
haven't brought up training. I'll wait until the overtime
stops, and then take her myself. They didn't agree about
keeping water available all the time -- regulating it a bit
makes it easier to know when she will need to urinate. When
I spend time with her, I can keep water around and make sure
I take her out often, as I did this weekend and at night last
week. Their arguments about this and about leaving Koko
outside during weekdays (see below) are sound, but I'm open
to more comments about these issues.

Koko appears to be house-trained, because we haven't had an
incident since I started posting to this newsgroup.

I leave at about 6:00 to 6:30 to drop Teenager at school on my
way to work. My wife gets up and leaves between 7:00 and 8:00.
She brings Teenager home at about 16:00. I can try to keep Koko
in our master bathroom while I get ready and while my wife gets
ready; but until she gets home, Koko stays outside. If we keep
her inside, caged or otherwise, we will have a urine problem.
If anyone sees a way around this, please advise.

When we are away for shorter periods, we can keep Koko
in the cage. We tend to stay at home when not at work.

We have a "bridle" that includes a thin strap that fits around
Koko's jaw just below her eyes, though not the length of the
jaw, like a muzzle would. This gives us more control. They
don't see a problem with it; it's not cruel like a muzzle.
Any thoughts on this? I haven't seen them use it for a few
days, but then I'm the one who's been spending time with Koko.
I bought a harness, but I don't see a need for it, and they
don't think it will help any like the bridle does. Who has
seen or used such a device? Comments?

Today, I watched for Teenager to bring Koko to her cage, when
her high school friends came over. I told her no. Of course
that didn't stop her, but I just took Koko's leash from her
and kept the pup with me. At some point, probably in a few
months, we will have an argument about Koko, and Teenager
will have to deal with the fact that she has made the family
pet my responsibility instead of her own.

Summary:

As I see it, the major issues at this point are (1) leaving
Koko outside from 6:00 or 8:00 to 16:00 on weekdays, which
ties in with whether working families should own dogs;
(2) training classes; (3) general training and education;
and perhaps the bridle and water regulation.

Some people who have posted messages to this thread think it's
OK for us to have Koko, as long as we make an effort to make
the pup part of the family and spend most of our time at home
with her. Others think if no one is at home during the day
most of the time, then it's a tragedy in the making.

Does anyone think this summary is inaccurate or incomplete?

Thanks to everyone who contributed and/or contributes
to this discussion. You're all a big help.

It looks as though you've made a lot of progress toward resolving some
of the problems with Koko. You may have posted the answer to this
before, and if so I apologize for the repetition: is there anyone
around, neighbor or kid or otherwise, who come come over halfway
through the day and let Koko out to potty and perhaps for a little
play? That way she wouldn't have to be left outside during the day,
and her water access wouldn't have to be restricted (which isn't an
ideal situation).

Mustang Sally

Subject: Training Choc Lab Pup (or Update on Koko)
From: "Michael Krantz"
Date: 9/1/03 8:13 PM Pacific

I have read but not contributed to this discussion because there are others
here much more competent to give good advice. I just wanted to say that I
believe you are giving this a very good try. You may end up with one of the
best friends you could ever have NOT wished for!


Deb
Shi the Svelte
Georgie, Scurry-Stalker & Baby Lover
Hank the Tank

Subject: Training Choc Lab Pup (or Update on Koko)
From: "Michael Krantz"
Date: 9/1/03 8:13 PM Pacific

I have read but not contributed to this discussion because there are others
here much more competent to give good advice. I just wanted to say that I
believe you are giving this a very good try. You may end up with one of the
best friends you could ever have NOT wished for!


Deb
Shi the Svelte
Georgie, Scurry-Stalker & Baby Lover
Hank the Tank

Subject: Training Choc Lab Pup (or Update on Koko)
From: michael
Date: 9/1/03 8:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time

(snip trash)

....oh, and use your killfile!


Deb
Shi the Svelte
Georgie, Scurry-Stalker & Baby Lover
Hank the Tank

Subject: Training Choc Lab Pup (or Update on Koko)
From: michael
Date: 9/1/03 8:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time

(snip trash)

....oh, and use your killfile!


Deb
Shi the Svelte
Georgie, Scurry-Stalker & Baby Lover
Hank the Tank

Michael Krantz wrote:

Some people who have posted messages to this thread think it's
OK for us to have Koko, as long as we make an effort to make
the pup part of the family and spend most of our time at home
with her. Others think if no one is at home during the day
most of the time, then it's a tragedy in the making.

Does anyone think this summary is inaccurate or incomplete?

I think that even if nothing changes from here, Koko already has a much
better life than she would have if surrendered to the pound and stuck
with whoever picked her up. Your schedule is similar to mine, and my
dog is also most often outside while I am gone. I leave her ample water
because I don't want her to dehydrate. It is easy enough to make sure
she does her business before I take her in and then watch her while she
is in. I tend to restrict food and water later at night so as to avoid
lots of middle of the night potty breaks.

If you could find someone to play with her during the day, it would be
great. My puppy has dogs out there to play with her. She still prefers
to be in with the people, but seems happy with outside romping and dog
play time while we are gone and lots of people time when we are home.
She likes outside better than being crated inside and is not safe inside
without a crate. I hope to be able to have her inside soon, though. At
this point, I have another dog that prefers outside, too, so they hang
out together and the other two are inside, one crated and one not,
during the day. I do have a dog door to the garage and have the part of
the garage they can get to dog-proofed, too, though, so that they can
get out of the heat and feel more like they are in the home than outside
the den completely. I usually find them in there when i get home, so i
think it does help. When she and the other young one are safer in the
house, they can all be in the house during the day, unless, like the
bouvier mix, they choose not to be.

The point is that you are giving her a chance at feeling loved and part
of the pack. You are giving her time to be trained and learn the rules.
You are doing right by the dog even though it was not your choice to get
a dog. Good for you!

--
Paula
"Where would Science be if every new idea that came along
were greeted with "That won't work", instead of "Let's
TRY it!" You first." -- Doctroid Holmes

Michael Krantz wrote:

Some people who have posted messages to this thread think it's
OK for us to have Koko, as long as we make an effort to make
the pup part of the family and spend most of our time at home
with her. Others think if no one is at home during the day
most of the time, then it's a tragedy in the making.

Does anyone think this summary is inaccurate or incomplete?

I think that even if nothing changes from here, Koko already has a much
better life than she would have if surrendered to the pound and stuck
with whoever picked her up. Your schedule is similar to mine, and my
dog is also most often outside while I am gone. I leave her ample water
because I don't want her to dehydrate. It is easy enough to make sure
she does her business before I take her in and then watch her while she
is in. I tend to restrict food and water later at night so as to avoid
lots of middle of the night potty breaks.

If you could find someone to play with her during the day, it would be
great. My puppy has dogs out there to play with her. She still prefers
to be in with the people, but seems happy with outside romping and dog
play time while we are gone and lots of people time when we are home.
She likes outside better than being crated inside and is not safe inside
without a crate. I hope to be able to have her inside soon, though. At
this point, I have another dog that prefers outside, too, so they hang
out together and the other two are inside, one crated and one not,
during the day. I do have a dog door to the garage and have the part of
the garage they can get to dog-proofed, too, though, so that they can
get out of the heat and feel more like they are in the home than outside
the den completely. I usually find them in there when i get home, so i
think it does help. When she and the other young one are safer in the
house, they can all be in the house during the day, unless, like the
bouvier mix, they choose not to be.

The point is that you are giving her a chance at feeling loved and part
of the pack. You are giving her time to be trained and learn the rules.
You are doing right by the dog even though it was not your choice to get
a dog. Good for you!

--
Paula
"Where would Science be if every new idea that came along
were greeted with "That won't work", instead of "Let's
TRY it!" You first." -- Doctroid Holmes

"D.Currie" wrote in message
...

"Michael Krantz" wrote in message
...

We all talked about Koko on Sunday morning. No more muzzle,
except perhaps when toddlers visit. (Today, we had a three
year old over for several hours and kept Koko around with no
muzzle.) No more putting her outside when we are at home,
except when we go outside, usually to put her on the dog run
grass for a few minutes to take care of her business. No
more letting her near the pool when she is outside. (We may
let her in the pool when we go swimming, but we don't that
much; if we do, we'll make sure she has plenty to drink
before and available during.) Apparently, the cage stays
in the guest bedroom; I'm not fighting that, right now.

The general idea is that once she's reliable in the house, you won't need
the crate, anyway.

Doesn't that take a couple of years?

You might want to see if there's a dogsitting service in your area. They
could come over mid-way through the day to take the pup out. Then you
might
be able to keep the pup inside.

I think it should be possible to find some solution along
those lines, and it becomes increasingly clear that I
should look for one until it do.

Sounds like a halti or something similar. They're used for walking a dog
that has a tendancy to pull when walking on a leash. I have no idea why
they
might be using it inside the house, though.

Maybe it was for walking Koko. That doesn't seem to happen
any more.

As far as the responsibilty, I don't consider taking care of my dogs a
chore, most of it is fun. And the parts that aren't fun are no worse than
anything else I have to do in the house...what your teenager is going to
find out is that the puppy she brought home is suddenly more your dog than
hers. Maybe then she'll take more of an interest in care and training.

It's a chore when you don't have time for fun.

It's a chore when you're doing a group activity by yourself.

She always wanted a dog and been mature and responsible enough
to handle one from an early age, but external factors beyond
her control prevented that. This was a sad, lonely summer for
her in many respects; so I guess the puppy was an opportunity to
make something good of it. Now she has some new good friends.
She should have had this puppy at another time in her life.
Maybe she'll come back to it, and may be she won't.

--
Donna

"It's even worse than that. Sometimes I think I'm living in a
perpendicular
universe."

Where is that quote from?

--
Best regards,
Mike Krantz