In article nk.net
"buglady" writes:

}
}Marshall, I hope you remember that nutrition is an infant science. What was
}held to be true 3 years ago has often been superceded by new information.
}The diet your dog is on is a starting point, nothing more. It is up to you
}in conjunction with your vet to make sure that the food has all of the amino
} acids essential to a dog. If you are not feeding egg or dairy and no meat,
}I really don't see how this diet is sufficient without supplementation.
}There are veterinary nutritionists you could consult.

Where are they?

Personally I've never
}read Strombeck's book and do not know the complete diet you are feeding. I
}hope he has at least provided an analysis for some essential nutrients of
}his recipes.

I must say, I face quite a task using those tables to figure out
what he is getting and comparing it to what he needs.

I do want to supplement the diet or find another one that is
appropriate for a dog disposed to calcium oxalate stones. My major
concern about the Hills U/D diet is that so many of the calories
come from fat.

What is the relation between amino acids and oxalates?

Thanks,

--Marshall

In article nk.net
"buglady" writes:

}
}Marshall, I hope you remember that nutrition is an infant science. What was
}held to be true 3 years ago has often been superceded by new information.
}The diet your dog is on is a starting point, nothing more. It is up to you
}in conjunction with your vet to make sure that the food has all of the amino
} acids essential to a dog. If you are not feeding egg or dairy and no meat,
}I really don't see how this diet is sufficient without supplementation.
}There are veterinary nutritionists you could consult.

Where are they?

Personally I've never
}read Strombeck's book and do not know the complete diet you are feeding. I
}hope he has at least provided an analysis for some essential nutrients of
}his recipes.

I must say, I face quite a task using those tables to figure out
what he is getting and comparing it to what he needs.

I do want to supplement the diet or find another one that is
appropriate for a dog disposed to calcium oxalate stones. My major
concern about the Hills U/D diet is that so many of the calories
come from fat.

What is the relation between amino acids and oxalates?

Thanks,

--Marshall

Good luck with Max
buglady
take out the dog before replying

Dear Buglady,

Can you help me make sense of these units?

TABLE 2 Required Minimum Concentrations of Available Nutrients in Dog Food
Formulated for Growth

Nutrient
Per 1,000 kcal ME Dry Basis (3.67 kcal ME/g)

as listed he

http://books.nap.edu/books/030903496...4.html#pagetop

I would need to understand the above to estimate the amino acids
my dog needs.

Thanks,

--Marshall

Good luck with Max
buglady
take out the dog before replying

Dear Buglady,

Can you help me make sense of these units?

TABLE 2 Required Minimum Concentrations of Available Nutrients in Dog Food
Formulated for Growth

Nutrient
Per 1,000 kcal ME Dry Basis (3.67 kcal ME/g)

as listed he

http://books.nap.edu/books/030903496...4.html#pagetop

I would need to understand the above to estimate the amino acids
my dog needs.

Thanks,

--Marshall

"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...
In article nk.net
"buglady" writes:
}There are veterinary nutritionists you could consult.

Where are they?

...........Some Univ Vet Clinics have them I think. Ask your vet for a
recommendation. Here is an interview with one:
http://aolsvc.petplace.aol.com/artic....asp?artID=284 You could
do a search on the net looking for board-certified veterinary nutritionists.
Or here's a service at UC Davis:
http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/vmth/ser...ition/faq.html

I must say, I face quite a task using those tables to figure out
what he is getting and comparing it to what he needs.

.......Yes, it is _work_! No doubt about it! The first step should be to
look at the 10 essential amino acids that dogs require to be in food (from
the NRC publication). Then input all the foods one by one that go into your
diet into the USDA Nutrient Database and look at the amino acid profiles.
If some of the essential amino acids are missing and Strombeck did not
suggest amino acid supplements, this diet is deficient, period. At this
point I think I would just send the recipe to a nutritionist and ask for
help, as I don't think you personally would be happy with anything less. Or
ask for a diet to be formulated. I think the Univ. services are pricey
though.

I do want to supplement the diet or find another one that is
appropriate for a dog disposed to calcium oxalate stones. My major
concern about the Hills U/D diet is that so many of the calories
come from fat.

........I don't understand your objection to fat. Dogs are not like humans.
They don't get artery problems and heart attacks from fat. Cholesterol is
not an issue with dogs. I think the Sm An Clin Nut says that fat can
comprise up to 20% of a dog's diet, but this really depends on the exercise
level, etc. Fats are a much better source of energy than carbs.

What is the relation between amino acids and oxalates?

.......????? Guess I don't understand the question. My harping on amino
acids is only because you are feeding a diet devoid of meat,dairy,eggs,
which are the ONLY sources of some amino acids that are essential for dogs
to live. (The definition of an essential amino acid is that the body cannot
make it.) I guess I do not understand why you went so far as to put the
dog on a vegan diet. Does he have a bladder full of stones? If he only has
a tendency to make Ca Ox stones, surely starting somewhere a little less
drastic might suffice. What does your vet say about this diet? Anything?

buglady
take out the dog before replying

"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...
In article nk.net
"buglady" writes:
}There are veterinary nutritionists you could consult.

Where are they?

...........Some Univ Vet Clinics have them I think. Ask your vet for a
recommendation. Here is an interview with one:
http://aolsvc.petplace.aol.com/artic....asp?artID=284 You could
do a search on the net looking for board-certified veterinary nutritionists.
Or here's a service at UC Davis:
http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/vmth/ser...ition/faq.html

I must say, I face quite a task using those tables to figure out
what he is getting and comparing it to what he needs.

.......Yes, it is _work_! No doubt about it! The first step should be to
look at the 10 essential amino acids that dogs require to be in food (from
the NRC publication). Then input all the foods one by one that go into your
diet into the USDA Nutrient Database and look at the amino acid profiles.
If some of the essential amino acids are missing and Strombeck did not
suggest amino acid supplements, this diet is deficient, period. At this
point I think I would just send the recipe to a nutritionist and ask for
help, as I don't think you personally would be happy with anything less. Or
ask for a diet to be formulated. I think the Univ. services are pricey
though.

I do want to supplement the diet or find another one that is
appropriate for a dog disposed to calcium oxalate stones. My major
concern about the Hills U/D diet is that so many of the calories
come from fat.

........I don't understand your objection to fat. Dogs are not like humans.
They don't get artery problems and heart attacks from fat. Cholesterol is
not an issue with dogs. I think the Sm An Clin Nut says that fat can
comprise up to 20% of a dog's diet, but this really depends on the exercise
level, etc. Fats are a much better source of energy than carbs.

What is the relation between amino acids and oxalates?

.......????? Guess I don't understand the question. My harping on amino
acids is only because you are feeding a diet devoid of meat,dairy,eggs,
which are the ONLY sources of some amino acids that are essential for dogs
to live. (The definition of an essential amino acid is that the body cannot
make it.) I guess I do not understand why you went so far as to put the
dog on a vegan diet. Does he have a bladder full of stones? If he only has
a tendency to make Ca Ox stones, surely starting somewhere a little less
drastic might suffice. What does your vet say about this diet? Anything?

buglady
take out the dog before replying

buglady wrote:

........I think it was Wendy Volhard who maintains that labs and some other
breeds need more sulfur containing foods, specifically methionine IIRC.
Many of these problems are genetic related I think - kinks perhaps in
synthesis, I don't know.

One possibility is that it has to do with the intense black color.
Black Labs have a mutation (the E allele) in a hormone receptor
which, in its fully functional form, triggers production of
black pigment (eumelanin) in response to a hormone in the bloodstream
(melanocortin 1). The wild-type allele plays a role in formation of
pigment-banded hairs. With E the receptor is "always on" owing to
a change in conformation which mimics the hormone-bound condition.
The precursor to melanin is tyrosine, an amino acid I believe. It
is not listed as "essential" for dogs--is it synthesized from
methionine?

I am not sure if the E allele means black (and chocolate) Labs are
constantly manufacturing melanin, even when the hair is not in a growth
phase. From what I know of its molecular basis, it seems that would
be the case.

Amy Dahl

buglady wrote:

........I think it was Wendy Volhard who maintains that labs and some other
breeds need more sulfur containing foods, specifically methionine IIRC.
Many of these problems are genetic related I think - kinks perhaps in
synthesis, I don't know.

One possibility is that it has to do with the intense black color.
Black Labs have a mutation (the E allele) in a hormone receptor
which, in its fully functional form, triggers production of
black pigment (eumelanin) in response to a hormone in the bloodstream
(melanocortin 1). The wild-type allele plays a role in formation of
pigment-banded hairs. With E the receptor is "always on" owing to
a change in conformation which mimics the hormone-bound condition.
The precursor to melanin is tyrosine, an amino acid I believe. It
is not listed as "essential" for dogs--is it synthesized from
methionine?

I am not sure if the E allele means black (and chocolate) Labs are
constantly manufacturing melanin, even when the hair is not in a growth
phase. From what I know of its molecular basis, it seems that would
be the case.

Amy Dahl

"Amy Dahl" wrote in message
...
One possibility is that it has to do with the intense black color.
Black Labs have a mutation (the E allele) in a hormone receptor
which, in its fully functional form, triggers production of
black pigment (eumelanin) in response to a hormone in the bloodstream
(melanocortin 1). The wild-type allele plays a role in formation of
pigment-banded hairs. With E the receptor is "always on" owing to
a change in conformation which mimics the hormone-bound condition.
The precursor to melanin is tyrosine, an amino acid I believe. It
is not listed as "essential" for dogs--is it synthesized from
methionine?

......No, it's considered nonessential but can provide for up to 50% of
phenylalanine requirements.
Discussion of amino acids starts on page 9.
http://books.nap.edu/books/030903496...9.html#pagetop
Phenylalanine and Tyrosine Phenylalanine is a dietary essential for the
immature dog (Milner, 1979a). Dietary phenylalanine requirements have been
reported to be less than 0.58 percent when 0.35 percent tyrosine was present
in the diet (Milner, 1979a). Deletion of tyrosine from purified L-amino acid
diets did not significantly influence growth when excess phenylalanine (1.16
percent) was present in the diet.

............I searched the text for taurine and found zip. I can't wait
until the new book is out. You might try searching the J. of Nutrition
(which has a lot of pet articles due to publication of Waltham Symposiums)
at www.nutrition.org There are also Proceedings from Tufts Symposiums at:
http://www.iknowledgenow.com/, but they cost money to see whole article.
Best place to start is PubMed.

Nice blurbs here on the amino acids (human site):
http://www.westons.com/acatalog/Onli...no_Acids_277.h
tml
Taurine is one of the lesser known Sulphur Amino Acids, and can be
synthesized by the body from Cysteine when Vitamin B-6 is present. It plays
a variety of roles in the normal functioning of the Brain, Heart,
Gallbladder, Eyes and Vascular System. Taurine has many diverse biological
functions, serving as a Neurotransmitter in the Brain, a stabiliser of cell
membranes and a facilitator in the transport of ions such as Sodium,
Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium. Taurine, after GABA, is the second most
important inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. The Amino Acids Alanine,
Glutamic Acid and Pantothenic Acid inhibit Taurine metabolism, while
Vitamins A and B-6, Zinc and Manganese help to synthesise Taurine. Cysteine
and Vitamin B-6 are the nutrients most directly involved in Taurine
synthesis.

......Oddly enough this page says arsenic is necessary to make taurine!
http://tooldoc.wncc.nevada.edu/nutrsn29.htm

You might find this interesting: http://home.iprimus.com.au/oben/rpe.htm

......Dogs are restless, gotta go
buglady
take out the dog before replying

"Amy Dahl" wrote in message
...
One possibility is that it has to do with the intense black color.
Black Labs have a mutation (the E allele) in a hormone receptor
which, in its fully functional form, triggers production of
black pigment (eumelanin) in response to a hormone in the bloodstream
(melanocortin 1). The wild-type allele plays a role in formation of
pigment-banded hairs. With E the receptor is "always on" owing to
a change in conformation which mimics the hormone-bound condition.
The precursor to melanin is tyrosine, an amino acid I believe. It
is not listed as "essential" for dogs--is it synthesized from
methionine?

......No, it's considered nonessential but can provide for up to 50% of
phenylalanine requirements.
Discussion of amino acids starts on page 9.
http://books.nap.edu/books/030903496...9.html#pagetop
Phenylalanine and Tyrosine Phenylalanine is a dietary essential for the
immature dog (Milner, 1979a). Dietary phenylalanine requirements have been
reported to be less than 0.58 percent when 0.35 percent tyrosine was present
in the diet (Milner, 1979a). Deletion of tyrosine from purified L-amino acid
diets did not significantly influence growth when excess phenylalanine (1.16
percent) was present in the diet.

............I searched the text for taurine and found zip. I can't wait
until the new book is out. You might try searching the J. of Nutrition
(which has a lot of pet articles due to publication of Waltham Symposiums)
at www.nutrition.org There are also Proceedings from Tufts Symposiums at:
http://www.iknowledgenow.com/, but they cost money to see whole article.
Best place to start is PubMed.

Nice blurbs here on the amino acids (human site):
http://www.westons.com/acatalog/Onli...no_Acids_277.h
tml
Taurine is one of the lesser known Sulphur Amino Acids, and can be
synthesized by the body from Cysteine when Vitamin B-6 is present. It plays
a variety of roles in the normal functioning of the Brain, Heart,
Gallbladder, Eyes and Vascular System. Taurine has many diverse biological
functions, serving as a Neurotransmitter in the Brain, a stabiliser of cell
membranes and a facilitator in the transport of ions such as Sodium,
Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium. Taurine, after GABA, is the second most
important inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. The Amino Acids Alanine,
Glutamic Acid and Pantothenic Acid inhibit Taurine metabolism, while
Vitamins A and B-6, Zinc and Manganese help to synthesise Taurine. Cysteine
and Vitamin B-6 are the nutrients most directly involved in Taurine
synthesis.

......Oddly enough this page says arsenic is necessary to make taurine!
http://tooldoc.wncc.nevada.edu/nutrsn29.htm

You might find this interesting: http://home.iprimus.com.au/oben/rpe.htm

......Dogs are restless, gotta go
buglady
take out the dog before replying