From: (K.B. Cunningham)
Date: 12/15/2003 1:10 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

First of all, I accept the fact that I've obviously made mistakes with
Holly's upbringing.

Good! I like to see someone that takes responsibility for their actions.

I received criticism for allowing her to remain
outdoors, which I feel is totally unwarranted.

Of course you do.... People who own dogs as lawn ornaments are almost always
put out by the suggestion that it isn't fair to the dog...

She is a very active
dog, and loves to romp, chase squirrels, and play outdoors. She has
ample shade in the summer, and adequate housing in the winter.

And as an animal bred specifically to work *with* man, a very boring and lonely
existence. If it's so grand out there, then why must you force her out the
door now that she's had a taste of actually living *with* you?!

I work,
and rather than leaving her penned up in the house all day, I chose to
allow her to stay in the fence.

Understandable, though a nice dog door (especially for a dog that age) would be
nice. However, you mentioned that she has lived in the yard her whole life,
until recently. So, do some math for me... How many minutes a day,
approximately, do you spend with your dogs? (and btw, it's not fair to the
"normal" mixed breed either) Every day? When it's freezing? When it's pouring
rain? When it's very hot and mosquitoes are hovering looking for a meal? When
you're busy or your friends want to go out?

Hardly a "lawn ornament" as we have
numerous play sessions on a regular basis.

If you work away from home (i.e. not a rancher or farmer that works outside
with the dog, 14 hours a day) then there is no way she is getting enough
stimulation in the time left over after work, sleep, chores, socializing, if
the weather is nice, etc. and so on.

I also accept that perhaps I didn't properly acclimate Holly to being
around other people.

Perhaps?

It took her a while to warm up to me, and to be
honest; for a while there, there just weren't many visitors here.
Again, that's my personal problem, not her's.

Well, unless you're biting people, it's her problem now.

The only portion of Holly's behavior that gravely concerns me, is the
fact that she bit someone, who she's known, and interacted with for the
past three years. Just not inside the house.

Because she's afraid and has no coping skills.

I feel that it's a personal
preference, depending on factors too numerous to discuss here. I prefer
an outdoor dog for probably the same number of reasons that some of you
prefer indoor dogs.

No, you probably don't. IME (16+ years in Aussies and 10+ in rescue), people
choose to have outdoor dogs because 1) they are too lazy to train / vacuum, or
because 2) they are firmly entrenched in the belief that dogs prefer to live
outdoors, cold, rain, sweltering heat, alone, than to be with their family.
The Noble Savage Myth is alive and well, but false, nonetheless. I wish a had
a dollar for every person that has ever whined to me that Aussies are working
dogs, and therefore want to be relegated to the outdoors. BS. If they are
ranchers or farmers and outdoors more than not, then yes, perhaps that's true.
But I have acreage and, given the choice, any day of the week, my dogs would
rather be with *me*... not sweltering out under a tree trying to cool off or
huddled in a freezing dog house trying to stay warm...

Here in the South, most folks just let their dogs
run loose, and to me, THAT'S totally unacceptable.

No, here in the South *some* people let their dogs run loose. Mostly
uneducated rural type people who just don't know any better. Some also still
believe that a fenced yard is an acceptable substitute for training,
socialization and companionship.

It isn't.

As far as the suggestion to have her euthanized; that's completely
asinine!

I said that it would be kinder to euthanize her if you were unwilling to change
your mindset to accomodate her needs. With a bite history, she isn't eligible
for rescue, and you risk the liability of placing a biter (along with those
who, knowingly or not, accept that responsibility). What I said was that I'd
like to see her in a decent home, with someone that will make the effort. If
that is you, great!

I could see that with a viscous dog that has maimed someone,
MAYBE; if there were no acceptable alternatives.

Really? Maimed? Go call your A/C department and ask them how many quarantine
dogs they have at this moment. She bites someone that pitches a big enough fit
(and maimed would be far from it... just broken skin would do) and you may not
have a choice. Our litigious society does not deal kindly with biting dogs and
irresponsible owners. Especially those who have a ongoing history of biting.

But, there's no way in
hell that I would ever consider that option, ever; based solely on
aggression.

Ah, yes, but you see, the courts would. So if you don't want that for her,
you'd best find a good behaviorist that will help you. If you're in GA, I can
offer referrals if you like.

I accepted Holly into my life, for the entirety of her life; and I may
have failed on a few points. That's why I sought advice here, to work
through those foibles. Even if she progressively gets worse, I would
still not consider euthanasia.

It's nice to hear that you are committed. It is also nice to hear that no
matter how bad her aggression becomes, you'd still risk everything you have and
everything you own to maintain her as the precious companion she obviously is
to you.

Robin

From: (K.B. Cunningham)
Date: 12/15/2003 1:10 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

First of all, I accept the fact that I've obviously made mistakes with
Holly's upbringing.

Good! I like to see someone that takes responsibility for their actions.

I received criticism for allowing her to remain
outdoors, which I feel is totally unwarranted.

Of course you do.... People who own dogs as lawn ornaments are almost always
put out by the suggestion that it isn't fair to the dog...

She is a very active
dog, and loves to romp, chase squirrels, and play outdoors. She has
ample shade in the summer, and adequate housing in the winter.

And as an animal bred specifically to work *with* man, a very boring and lonely
existence. If it's so grand out there, then why must you force her out the
door now that she's had a taste of actually living *with* you?!

I work,
and rather than leaving her penned up in the house all day, I chose to
allow her to stay in the fence.

Understandable, though a nice dog door (especially for a dog that age) would be
nice. However, you mentioned that she has lived in the yard her whole life,
until recently. So, do some math for me... How many minutes a day,
approximately, do you spend with your dogs? (and btw, it's not fair to the
"normal" mixed breed either) Every day? When it's freezing? When it's pouring
rain? When it's very hot and mosquitoes are hovering looking for a meal? When
you're busy or your friends want to go out?

Hardly a "lawn ornament" as we have
numerous play sessions on a regular basis.

If you work away from home (i.e. not a rancher or farmer that works outside
with the dog, 14 hours a day) then there is no way she is getting enough
stimulation in the time left over after work, sleep, chores, socializing, if
the weather is nice, etc. and so on.

I also accept that perhaps I didn't properly acclimate Holly to being
around other people.

Perhaps?

It took her a while to warm up to me, and to be
honest; for a while there, there just weren't many visitors here.
Again, that's my personal problem, not her's.

Well, unless you're biting people, it's her problem now.

The only portion of Holly's behavior that gravely concerns me, is the
fact that she bit someone, who she's known, and interacted with for the
past three years. Just not inside the house.

Because she's afraid and has no coping skills.

I feel that it's a personal
preference, depending on factors too numerous to discuss here. I prefer
an outdoor dog for probably the same number of reasons that some of you
prefer indoor dogs.

No, you probably don't. IME (16+ years in Aussies and 10+ in rescue), people
choose to have outdoor dogs because 1) they are too lazy to train / vacuum, or
because 2) they are firmly entrenched in the belief that dogs prefer to live
outdoors, cold, rain, sweltering heat, alone, than to be with their family.
The Noble Savage Myth is alive and well, but false, nonetheless. I wish a had
a dollar for every person that has ever whined to me that Aussies are working
dogs, and therefore want to be relegated to the outdoors. BS. If they are
ranchers or farmers and outdoors more than not, then yes, perhaps that's true.
But I have acreage and, given the choice, any day of the week, my dogs would
rather be with *me*... not sweltering out under a tree trying to cool off or
huddled in a freezing dog house trying to stay warm...

Here in the South, most folks just let their dogs
run loose, and to me, THAT'S totally unacceptable.

No, here in the South *some* people let their dogs run loose. Mostly
uneducated rural type people who just don't know any better. Some also still
believe that a fenced yard is an acceptable substitute for training,
socialization and companionship.

It isn't.

As far as the suggestion to have her euthanized; that's completely
asinine!

I said that it would be kinder to euthanize her if you were unwilling to change
your mindset to accomodate her needs. With a bite history, she isn't eligible
for rescue, and you risk the liability of placing a biter (along with those
who, knowingly or not, accept that responsibility). What I said was that I'd
like to see her in a decent home, with someone that will make the effort. If
that is you, great!

I could see that with a viscous dog that has maimed someone,
MAYBE; if there were no acceptable alternatives.

Really? Maimed? Go call your A/C department and ask them how many quarantine
dogs they have at this moment. She bites someone that pitches a big enough fit
(and maimed would be far from it... just broken skin would do) and you may not
have a choice. Our litigious society does not deal kindly with biting dogs and
irresponsible owners. Especially those who have a ongoing history of biting.

But, there's no way in
hell that I would ever consider that option, ever; based solely on
aggression.

Ah, yes, but you see, the courts would. So if you don't want that for her,
you'd best find a good behaviorist that will help you. If you're in GA, I can
offer referrals if you like.

I accepted Holly into my life, for the entirety of her life; and I may
have failed on a few points. That's why I sought advice here, to work
through those foibles. Even if she progressively gets worse, I would
still not consider euthanasia.

It's nice to hear that you are committed. It is also nice to hear that no
matter how bad her aggression becomes, you'd still risk everything you have and
everything you own to maintain her as the precious companion she obviously is
to you.

Robin

dogsnus wrote:

I had to leave before I said something really rude, after I recovered
my speech function, that is.

Terri

Welcome to the South Terri. And I have left or been
pulled away by DH many a time for very similar
type discussion.

And don't even get me started with the neighbor
below me who is breeding GSDs as quick as
they can come out. GSDs who he obtained
from a horrid breeder here in town that
several of the GSD rescues have been trying
to have shut down.

Gwen

dogsnus wrote:

I had to leave before I said something really rude, after I recovered
my speech function, that is.

Terri

Welcome to the South Terri. And I have left or been
pulled away by DH many a time for very similar
type discussion.

And don't even get me started with the neighbor
below me who is breeding GSDs as quick as
they can come out. GSDs who he obtained
from a horrid breeder here in town that
several of the GSD rescues have been trying
to have shut down.

Gwen

dogsnus wrote:

I had to leave before I said something really rude, after I recovered
my speech function, that is.

Terri

Welcome to the South Terri. And I have left or been
pulled away by DH many a time for very similar
type discussion.

And don't even get me started with the neighbor
below me who is breeding GSDs as quick as
they can come out. GSDs who he obtained
from a horrid breeder here in town that
several of the GSD rescues have been trying
to have shut down.

Gwen