I don't have nearly the wide experience that many of you do in observing
dogs, but I often find myself questioning the "meaning" of humping and
pawing. Not so much that they *can* be and often are dominance signals,
but that sometimes it just doesn't seem like that is what is going on, in
the context of knowing the dogs.

Here's one example: Dylan, our female GSD (9) has lots of alpha traits,
and she bas been clearly dominant (food, attentions, sleeping place) over
Oppie, our Male Lab (7), from the time we got him. She was two, he was 11
wks. Both are speutered. She's pretty secure in her position and doesn't
seem to need to lord it over him. And he doesn't seem to mind taking
second place; he doesn't challenge her. When they play bitey face, he's
the one that usually ends up on the ground. They both initiate play.

Oppie, however, side-humps Dylan on occasion. He puts his head on her back
and moves his haunches as if he were humping her. This happens mostly
either when there are other dogs around, or when Dylan has been getting a
lot attention from us, like when she's been brushed. It doesn't look like
dominance, and Dylan doesn't respond to it as if it were a challenge. She
mostly ignores it, or, if he's extremely persistent, she'll give a little
growl; she has hip dysplasia, so I expect it can get uncomfortable when he
persists. When I can't help anthropomorphizing, it looks more like
possessiveness (she's *my* girl!) than dominance.

Then there's paw placing. When Oppie is upset (he used to get upset when
we'd dance or walk strangely in his presence), he will jump up on his hind
legs and put his paws on our shoulders, and lick our chins. He also does
this if it's well past feeding time and we're ignoring him. Again, I
suppose it could be dominance, but it looks more like he's imploring us to
stop dancing or to feed him.

I'm just musing on the possibility that we may construe the dogs' behaviors
too narrowly at times. Have those of you with broader experience ever
pondered on this possiblity?

FurPaw

--
Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.

To reply, unleash the dog.

"FurPaw" wrote
snip
Oppie, however, side-humps Dylan on occasion. He puts his head on her
back
and moves his haunches as if he were humping her. This happens mostly
either when there are other dogs around, or when Dylan has been getting a
lot attention from us, like when she's been brushed. It doesn't look like
dominance, and Dylan doesn't respond to it as if it were a challenge. She
mostly ignores it, or, if he's extremely persistent, she'll give a little
growl; she has hip dysplasia, so I expect it can get uncomfortable when he
persists.

Could just be sexual behavior. I know a few dogs that like to uh.... spank
the monkey. And a couple are neutered. If Dylan is the dominant dog, and
really doesn't care that he does it, I doubt it's dominance behavior. The
growling occasionally is probably just to let him know she's had enough.

When Oppie is upset (he used to get upset when
we'd dance or walk strangely in his presence), he will jump up on his hind
legs and put his paws on our shoulders, and lick our chins. He also does
this if it's well past feeding time and we're ignoring him.

Look at wolf puppies when an adult returns to the den. He's greeting you in
a submissive way and trying to get your attention. Does it work? :-)

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com

"FurPaw" wrote
snip
Oppie, however, side-humps Dylan on occasion. He puts his head on her
back
and moves his haunches as if he were humping her. This happens mostly
either when there are other dogs around, or when Dylan has been getting a
lot attention from us, like when she's been brushed. It doesn't look like
dominance, and Dylan doesn't respond to it as if it were a challenge. She
mostly ignores it, or, if he's extremely persistent, she'll give a little
growl; she has hip dysplasia, so I expect it can get uncomfortable when he
persists.

Could just be sexual behavior. I know a few dogs that like to uh.... spank
the monkey. And a couple are neutered. If Dylan is the dominant dog, and
really doesn't care that he does it, I doubt it's dominance behavior. The
growling occasionally is probably just to let him know she's had enough.

When Oppie is upset (he used to get upset when
we'd dance or walk strangely in his presence), he will jump up on his hind
legs and put his paws on our shoulders, and lick our chins. He also does
this if it's well past feeding time and we're ignoring him.

Look at wolf puppies when an adult returns to the den. He's greeting you in
a submissive way and trying to get your attention. Does it work? :-)

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com

"FurPaw" wrote
snip
Oppie, however, side-humps Dylan on occasion. He puts his head on her
back
and moves his haunches as if he were humping her. This happens mostly
either when there are other dogs around, or when Dylan has been getting a
lot attention from us, like when she's been brushed. It doesn't look like
dominance, and Dylan doesn't respond to it as if it were a challenge. She
mostly ignores it, or, if he's extremely persistent, she'll give a little
growl; she has hip dysplasia, so I expect it can get uncomfortable when he
persists.

Could just be sexual behavior. I know a few dogs that like to uh.... spank
the monkey. And a couple are neutered. If Dylan is the dominant dog, and
really doesn't care that he does it, I doubt it's dominance behavior. The
growling occasionally is probably just to let him know she's had enough.

When Oppie is upset (he used to get upset when
we'd dance or walk strangely in his presence), he will jump up on his hind
legs and put his paws on our shoulders, and lick our chins. He also does
this if it's well past feeding time and we're ignoring him.

Look at wolf puppies when an adult returns to the den. He's greeting you in
a submissive way and trying to get your attention. Does it work? :-)

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com

"FurPaw" wrote
snip
Oppie, however, side-humps Dylan on occasion. He puts his head on her
back
and moves his haunches as if he were humping her. This happens mostly
either when there are other dogs around, or when Dylan has been getting a
lot attention from us, like when she's been brushed. It doesn't look like
dominance, and Dylan doesn't respond to it as if it were a challenge. She
mostly ignores it, or, if he's extremely persistent, she'll give a little
growl; she has hip dysplasia, so I expect it can get uncomfortable when he
persists.

Could just be sexual behavior. I know a few dogs that like to uh.... spank
the monkey. And a couple are neutered. If Dylan is the dominant dog, and
really doesn't care that he does it, I doubt it's dominance behavior. The
growling occasionally is probably just to let him know she's had enough.

When Oppie is upset (he used to get upset when
we'd dance or walk strangely in his presence), he will jump up on his hind
legs and put his paws on our shoulders, and lick our chins. He also does
this if it's well past feeding time and we're ignoring him.

Look at wolf puppies when an adult returns to the den. He's greeting you in
a submissive way and trying to get your attention. Does it work? :-)

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com

In article ,
FurPaw wrote:
I'm just musing on the possibility that we may construe the dogs' behaviors
too narrowly at times. Have those of you with broader experience ever
pondered on this possiblity?

Most times I read this newsgroup. Well, many times, anyway.
I think that for behaviors that are "clearly understood,"
which typically have something to do with pack structure,
etc., there's a tendency to disregard context, which is
unfortunate. (The regulars are generally good about that
kind of thing and a few people are really terrific, but
these people who blow in and make pronouncements about
dominance or aggression tend to cause my eyes to spin).
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Payroll taxes are now the largest percentage of
federal revenue they've been in US history

In article ,
FurPaw wrote:
I'm just musing on the possibility that we may construe the dogs' behaviors
too narrowly at times. Have those of you with broader experience ever
pondered on this possiblity?

Most times I read this newsgroup. Well, many times, anyway.
I think that for behaviors that are "clearly understood,"
which typically have something to do with pack structure,
etc., there's a tendency to disregard context, which is
unfortunate. (The regulars are generally good about that
kind of thing and a few people are really terrific, but
these people who blow in and make pronouncements about
dominance or aggression tend to cause my eyes to spin).
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Payroll taxes are now the largest percentage of
federal revenue they've been in US history

In article ,
FurPaw wrote:
I'm just musing on the possibility that we may construe the dogs' behaviors
too narrowly at times. Have those of you with broader experience ever
pondered on this possiblity?

Most times I read this newsgroup. Well, many times, anyway.
I think that for behaviors that are "clearly understood,"
which typically have something to do with pack structure,
etc., there's a tendency to disregard context, which is
unfortunate. (The regulars are generally good about that
kind of thing and a few people are really terrific, but
these people who blow in and make pronouncements about
dominance or aggression tend to cause my eyes to spin).
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Payroll taxes are now the largest percentage of
federal revenue they've been in US history

In article ,
FurPaw wrote:
I'm just musing on the possibility that we may construe the dogs' behaviors
too narrowly at times. Have those of you with broader experience ever
pondered on this possiblity?

Most times I read this newsgroup. Well, many times, anyway.
I think that for behaviors that are "clearly understood,"
which typically have something to do with pack structure,
etc., there's a tendency to disregard context, which is
unfortunate. (The regulars are generally good about that
kind of thing and a few people are really terrific, but
these people who blow in and make pronouncements about
dominance or aggression tend to cause my eyes to spin).
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Payroll taxes are now the largest percentage of
federal revenue they've been in US history

"FurPaw" wrote in message
Then there's paw placing. When Oppie is upset (he used to get upset when
we'd dance or walk strangely in his presence), he will jump up on his hind
legs and put his paws on our shoulders, and lick our chins. He also does
this if it's well past feeding time and we're ignoring him. Again, I
suppose it could be dominance, but it looks more like he's imploring us to
stop dancing or to feed him.

this sounds like simple attention getting behavior to me.


I'm just musing on the possibility that we may construe the dogs'
behaviors
too narrowly at times. Have those of you with broader experience ever
pondered on this possiblity?

Sure.

I am reminded of a dog school friend who came over for cocktails and saw
Toklat hump Kavik. She was surprised that toklat was the "dominant" dog.
I told her he wasnt' and she argued with me that Kavik wouldn't have let him
if he wasnt' the dominant dog. Five minutes later, Kavik humped Toklat. She
had no idea what to say then.

She owns a breed that is very into rank. It never occured to her that we
really don't have one in my house.