If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Breeding debate
I apologize for intruding on your ng but I have a question about dog
breeding from a scientific perspective. I am debating with someone about the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50 muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when could you develop every major breed we have today? Thank you for responding! |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
When the ancient war dogs did battle on Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:53:46
-0400, "Routerider" did speak the following bit of wisdom: I am debating with someone about the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50 muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when could you develop every major breed we have today? Well, you *might* be able to recreate some of the newer breeds fairly quickly. However, please note that many breeds were developed from other breeds or types of dogs that are now extinct in the world. And seeing as how a few breeds of dogs have existed -- basically in their present form -- for THOUSANDS of years, I'd say that you what you ask would be pretty impossible to accomplish... *~ *~ *~ Karen C. Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there... "You have no power here! ...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!" |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
"Routerider" wrote in message ... I apologize for intruding on your ng but I have a question about dog breeding from a scientific perspective. I am debating with someone about the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50 muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when could you develop every major breed we have today? Thank you for responding! No, 50 dogs wouldn't be anywhere near sufficient to replicate even just a few breeds. You may be able to get dogs that resemble some of the more common breeds in shelters, such as Labs, Huskies, German Shepherds, and pit bulls. You almost certainly could not get anything resembling a Pharoah Hound, Chinese Crested, Deerhound, Clumber Spaniel, etc. Christy |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Routerider wrote:
I apologize for intruding on your ng but I have a question about dog breeding from a scientific perspective. I am debating with someone about the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50 muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when could you develop every major breed we have today? Given 50 mutts and perhaps 25-30 years, you might--and I do emphasize *MIGHT* --be able to create a single new breed, which might or might not resemble any existing breed very much. Note that the resulting breed would be very inbred as a founding population of 50 is a pretty small one, although breeds *have* been developed from less. As far as re-creating every existing breed, forget it. There are many genes that are rare-to-nonexistent in the general population of dogs, but are common in a particular breed. Your theoretical founding population of 50 is going to have a maximum of 100 different alleles at a given locus (um... "locus" pretty much corresponds to what most people think of as a "gene"; an "allele" is a particular form of a gene). Think about a Dalmatian's spots--maybe not a good example, as that's an exaggerated form of ticking, which DOES occur in other breeds-- but I'm going to use it anyway :-). If the ticking/spotting allele doesn't occur in your founding population of dogs, there's really no chance you're going to get it back--it was probably originally caused by a mutation, and it's unlikely that a similar mutation will occur in your population. JFWIW, Dianne |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:27:03 -0000, Jim Battista
wrote: Andrea J Chee wrote in : 50 mutts between them can't contain all the different genetic traits that make up the several hundred breeds that exist in the world. That would be too easy. It would be kind of cool, though, for some organization with a long- term view to start with wolves again and domesticate from there towards a variety of different goals, maybe with the odd bit of gene-tampering in there to speed things up or to bring in lines that couldn't otherwise be brought in. I do wonder from time to time what breeds we're missing out on. When Soviets were domesticating silver foxes for tameness and handle- ability, they got to something remarkably tame in, IIRC, less than 30 years. In the process, they also got foxes with white blazes, floppy ears, and so on. Although I personally think that rabies shots would work on wolves most states have laws saying that all wolves will have to be put down if they break the skin in _any way_ { so the brain can be examined - or so I'm told } This would really hamper things -- but having met wolf breeders I've constantly heard that pure wolves are quite friendly but are subject to worsening tempers after cross breading with dogs......you just don't want BIG dogs with poor tempers! LOL! I know this is done all the time and have met many wolf/dogs that are sweethearts so don't want to imply that it won't work ......but.....still not to sure it is a good idea |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"Jim Battista" wrote in message .. . Andrea J Chee wrote in : 50 mutts between them can't contain all the different genetic traits that make up the several hundred breeds that exist in the world. That would be too easy. It would be kind of cool, though, for some organization with a long- term view to start with wolves again and domesticate from there towards a variety of different goals, maybe with the odd bit of gene-tampering in there to speed things up or to bring in lines that couldn't otherwise be brought in. I do wonder from time to time what breeds we're missing out on. that *would* be cool When Soviets were domesticating silver foxes for tameness and handle- ability, they got to something remarkably tame in, IIRC, less than 30 years. In the process, they also got foxes with white blazes, floppy ears, and so on. thanks, I had never heard of that. Do you remember when they did that? -- Jim Battista A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Chuck D wrote in :
This would really hamper things -- but having met wolf breeders I've constantly heard that pure wolves are quite friendly but are subject to worsening tempers after cross breading with dogs......you just don't want BIG dogs with poor tempers! LOL! I know this is done all the time and have met many wolf/dogs that are sweethearts so don't want to imply that it won't work .....but.....still not to sure it is a good idea I don't mean breeding wolf-dogs. I mean start with wolves, breed for hundreds to thousands of years, and see if we can't get new kinds of domestic dog. Canis lupus familiaris 2.0, if you will. -- Jim Battista A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
"Q" wrote in
: "Jim Battista" wrote in message .. . When Soviets were domesticating silver foxes for tameness and handle- ability, they got to something remarkably tame in, IIRC, less than 30 years. In the process, they also got foxes with white blazes, floppy ears, and so on. thanks, I had never heard of that. Do you remember when they did that? Recently. 60's through 90's or thereabouts. It's featured in one of the shows about dogs on Discovery/TLC/ScienceChannel/etc. There's a web page up at http://reactor-core.org/taming-foxes.html -- it looks like it ran from 1959 through at least 1999. -- Jim Battista A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 06:26:08 -0000, Jim Battista
wrote: Chuck D wrote in : This would really hamper things -- but having met wolf breeders I've constantly heard that pure wolves are quite friendly but are subject to worsening tempers after cross breading with dogs......you just don't want BIG dogs with poor tempers! LOL! I know this is done all the time and have met many wolf/dogs that are sweethearts so don't want to imply that it won't work .....but.....still not to sure it is a good idea I don't mean breeding wolf-dogs. I mean start with wolves, breed for hundreds to thousands of years, and see if we can't get new kinds of domestic dog. Canis lupus familiaris 2.0, if you will. The concept IS interesting ... I had read about the russian breeding and thought it sounded very interesting. Maybe we could luck out and get a dog that would eat lawyers or politicians! ) I guess I stated my point incorrectly.......There_ is_ no legal rabies vaccine for wolves - as you breed toward any new species you still have no way to be sure about protection against this problem. Since I doubt that in reality anyone will try to derive a new species then the vaccine is most likely a moot point. In the real world I guess that there is no money to find a vaccine. I would bet that dog vaccines would work and the reason that they { dog vaccines} aren't recognized is to keep wolf breeding down. Not too many folks like the idea. The comments about wolf dogs were just thrown in as It is a concern of mine ....having had a wolf/dog cross for 17 years. { the most loving animal - humans included- I've ever known } We know wolf breeders and thought seriously about getting a new one after our girl passed away until we found out about all the prejudice and problems. I could not stand putting down a member of the family for a scrape or scratch. on a humorous note one of the biggest problems with breeding wolves is that they steal everything and take it to their 'nests' These nests / dens{ if you let them dig} will end up looking like a raven or raccoon's den in no time at all....their curiosity seems unlimited.....everything that is not tied down will be taken! Everything human related has to be fenced away from them. Another problem is that wolves probably would not breed toward dogs as we know them . I'm not too sure but I believe that the other canines are as different to wolves as great apes are to us. There have been searches for the DNA path of dogs and in most cases a yellow short haired dog was the oldest living link not wolves. Long hair { as wolves have} actually seems to be a clue that the root dna has been altered as all of the oldest known dog ancestors seem to have had short hair. I know from living in Alaska that there are lines of wolf to dog breeds but I doubt that many of the dog type breeds we think about today are derived from wolves....from other canines ....yes....but besides malamutes and similar breeds most of the root DNA would probably come from other canine species. I believe that many of the ancient dog species that we think of today { african spotted dogs as example } may be older that the wolf { north american C. lupus at least } . It actually may be that dogs came first and wolves are only a breed that developed after the major ice ages. I personally like the romantic notion that dogs evolved from wolves but the fossil record just might show the opposite. The sad thing for me is that dogs and cats seem to have the same ancestor according to NY's Nat. History museum. It looked like a small big headed animal similar to the Tasmanian tiger. |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Breeder Fees: What's Resonable/Ethical? | Andrea | Dog breeds | 11 | July 12th 03 08:29 AM |
Breeding tips? | Angela Thompson | Dog breeds | 20 | July 8th 03 06:58 AM |