A Problem

"ceb" wrote in message:

I'd do it if I were you. Zoe gets like this sometimes (not so much
anymore, but it still crops up occasionally) and makes a play for being
the boss. I instantly go into NILIF mode, or a modified version of it,
making her follow commands before getting affection, food, or treats,

That's basically what I've done. The dogs all work for food and treats
anyway, but she's now having to work for love too.

taking away any toys she might snark over, including her beloved
formerly-squeaky penguin. All toys are belong to me!

There is no toy snarking, mostly because she doesn't play with toys all that
much. Luna loves the toys, so I have left them down. IF she plays with
them, it's always supervised anyway.

That being said, I handle the increased jealousy a little differently.
With Zoe, that tends to happen if I'm really for some reason paying her
less attention than usual.

I realize that I was in fact paying her less attention. I think that it has
helped to step up on that front. Luna is a dog I really, really like.
She's just wonderful and sweet and soft (very, very soft and pettable). I
like spending time on her, so I'm sure I've given Pan some cause for the
jealousy. Pan's a funny dog. Normally, *hates* having her nails trimmed.
Now, I can do them all day long, and she'll just lie there all contented.
She'll take any attention, even the kind she doesn't like, I guess.

I mean, of course I support the health testing part. Pan may be feeling
that she doesn't like too much rambunctiousness. The randomness of it
might cause pain that's different from the hiking pain.

Luna is not actually doing anything or interacting with her. She growls at
her if she walks or runs by. She'll stand by the doorway, just daring her
to come in, that sort of ****. Yet, they'll both be lying side by side on
the bed or the couch.

Suja

"Suja" wrote in
:

That's a peace of mind thing. I would love for this to be general
bitchiness exacerbated by something like a Thyroid problem, which
is substantially easier to fix than what I think is really going
on.

And it could well be.

She has cut down substantially on the bossypantsing, but is still
overly curious and nosey about Luna.

That isn't surprising. No matter how well she knows Luna, Luna is A)
not a pack member and B) competition.

Right before they left, I was given the third degree about how
likely it is that we'll change our plans, and how we can't because
they're already making plans for the visit.

Aw! I know what you mean about not wanting to disappoint them. How
about telling them that you're having tests run, but until you know
what you're dealing with, you'd rather they dogs stay in a kennel.
If nothing else, for Luna's safety.

That's certainly a possibility. Her behavior is very specific to
specific instances and aren't always recreatable, so we'll have to
see. The good news is that I do know where to find a good
behaviorist if we need one.

You know enough about behavior that you can give a pretty good verbal
description of what *you've* observed, though. I wouldn't rule out a
behaviorist consult just because Pan isn't likely to perform on cue.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

"Suja" wrote in message
...


Pan had a geriatric panel in October and was given a clean bill of health.
I have to give the dogs their bordatella shots shortly, and I'm planning
on
having her bloodwork re-run, along with a full Thyroid panel. The bigger
problem now is that we were counting on Luna's folks to watch both dogs
for
us while we go to India, for 3 weeks. In light of how she's behaving, I
don't think that's going to be a good idea. I trust them to be able to
manage the situation, but it will be pretty stressful all around. This
totally sucks.


We stopped dog trading with my best friends because her GSD started to get
bitchy. She generally gets made because someone else (for example Kavik) is
above her on the totem pole and takes it out on the lower totem pole dog
(say Toklat). She ended up biting the visitng submissive poodle because the
dominant poodle made her mad.

I think management is great but at some point you have to throw in the
towel.

"Suja" wrote in message
...

I realize that I was in fact paying her less attention. I think that it
has
helped to step up on that front. Luna is a dog I really, really like.
She's just wonderful and sweet and soft (very, very soft and pettable). I
like spending time on her, so I'm sure I've given Pan some cause for the
jealousy. Pan's a funny dog. Normally, *hates* having her nails trimmed.
Now, I can do them all day long, and she'll just lie there all contented.
She'll take any attention, even the kind she doesn't like, I guess.


I look at this situation and i see the idea that pans getting too big for
her britches and she needs to be plonked down a bit. But I also see that
the issue is that she feels that Luna is getting resources that Pan likes
and wants and values - hell, Luna even gets to sit in the FRONT SEAT OF THE
CAR.

now, maybe my dogs are just crazy but my dogs think that the BEST place to
sit is in the front seat. Before I got smart and delegated them to matching
seatbelts in the back, there was much drama over the front seat. Isn't
letting Luna sit in the front, giving Pan the idea that she is MORE
IMPORTANT than Pan. Perhaps thats whats going on in general - Pan feels
that her pack order status has been threatened by Luna. I'm not sure that
NILIF and making her feel even LOWER on the totem pole will help. In fact,
in may even make the situation worse.

I'm certainly no expert at this crap, but just having dealt with bossy Aziza
in a similar situation makes me wonder.

"Beth In Alaska" wrote in message:

now, maybe my dogs are just crazy but my dogs think that the BEST place to
sit is in the front seat. Before I got smart and delegated them to
matching
seatbelts in the back, there was much drama over the front seat. Isn't
letting Luna sit in the front, giving Pan the idea that she is MORE
IMPORTANT than Pan.

I understand what you're saying, and it's something we've considered, but I
seriously doubt that Pan likes the front seat. Out of necessity, she's
ridden there twice now, and it is very uncomfortable for her. She basically
does not fit, no matter how she tries to squish herself. At her most
comfortable, what she has to do is squish herself so that her rear end is on
the seat (but hunched over), her front legs are on the floor, with the head
resting on the dashboard. Even when she does her best to curl up in the
seat, about half her body sticks out, and she has to ride with her entire
front half basically hanging off the seat.

Perhaps thats whats going on in general - Pan feels
that her pack order status has been threatened by Luna. I'm not sure that
NILIF and making her feel even LOWER on the totem pole will help. In
fact,
in may even make the situation worse.

Fully aware of that. That's why I'm limiting the sort of rank reduction
we're doing. I'm giving her a lot of opportunities to earn her way into my
good graces, and she's availing herself of the opportunities presented. She
is getting a ton of attention, and Luna is getting less (or at least she's
getting attention when Pan isn't watching or doesn't care), but it is on my
terms. I'm playing with her more, praising her more, I'm just making it
contingent on higher standards than normal.

I'm certainly no expert at this crap, but just having dealt with bossy
Aziza
in a similar situation makes me wonder.

Thanks for bringing this up. It is a fine line, but I'm trying to walk it.

Suja

"Suja" wrote in message
...
Fully aware of that. That's why I'm limiting the sort of rank reduction
we're doing. I'm giving her a lot of opportunities to earn her way into
my
good graces, and she's availing herself of the opportunities presented.
She
is getting a ton of attention, and Luna is getting less (or at least she's
getting attention when Pan isn't watching or doesn't care), but it is on
my
terms. I'm playing with her more, praising her more, I'm just making it
contingent on higher standards than normal.

That seems good - shes not feeling cheated but shes reinforced that you are
the Bossiest One in the house (something which I am quite certain of)

With two dogs, neither of whom cared too much about status stuff, I've never
really had issues of pack order particularly. It was simple and there were
no arguments about it. Bringing Aziza into the mix gave me a whole new
perspective on multiple dog households. I remember that she was peeved that
Kavik was boss of his house (although he did not DO anything to her, she
just sensed it) and she would pick on Tok. And then when Kali got added
in, there was a whole other round of snarkiness that took place.

I'm very glad that Pirate is NOT a dog who cares much about status - its a
quality that is apparently rare in PWC's.

"BethInAK" wrote in message:

That seems good - shes not feeling cheated but shes reinforced that you
are
the Bossiest One in the house (something which I am quite certain of)

She is very sensitive to human mood changes and deferential to humans. If
Luna were a dog more likely to stand up for herself, we actually would not
have a problem; Pan is a wannabe, but also a bully and likely to pick on
dogs she perceives to be weaker.

With two dogs, neither of whom cared too much about status stuff, I've
never
really had issues of pack order particularly.

I have two dogs that are very conscious about pack order, and by and large,
it's not an issue. Khan is king (among dogs). Dogs recognize this. There
is no problem. This sort of nickel and dime stuff, he never does, and his
sentiments tend to be very black and white. When he is seriously
challenged, it is a problem, and a huge one at that. Now that I'm more
aware of it, it is so completely obvious that something is about break, that
intervention is reasonably easy to accomplish (There is a female GSD pup at
the dog park that he has taken an instant dislike to, which is VERY unusual,
but from observing her behavior, I can totally see why; she's the kind of
pushy, hostile dog that will get in his face).

Bringing Aziza into the mix gave me a whole new
perspective on multiple dog households. I remember that she was peeved
that
Kavik was boss of his house (although he did not DO anything to her, she
just sensed it) and she would pick on Tok. And then when Kali got added
in, there was a whole other round of snarkiness that took place.

I swear, I don't want to have anything to do with female dogs anymore. More
complex creatures and more prone to nuanced thinking, IMO.

Suja

"Suja" said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I swear, I don't want to have anything to do with female
dogs anymore. More complex creatures and more prone to
nuanced thinking, IMO.

Heh! That's why I'm so enjoying Maybe so much right now.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Suja" wrote in
:

I swear, I don't want to have anything to do with female dogs anymore.
More complex creatures and more prone to nuanced thinking, IMO.


You could get a Queener-dog. She promises never to be complex or nuanced.

Now Zoe, on the other hand...

--
Catherine
& Zoe, Queenie, & Max, 3 black dogs of varying sizes
& Rosalie the calico cat
www.ourladyofperfection.blogspot.com

"ceb" wrote in message:

You could get a Queener-dog. She promises never to be complex or nuanced.

I sure hope you're sleeping with one eye open. She's just lulling you into
a false sense of security. Even the most innocent, dumb blonde valley girl
type female dogs I've known have had agendas. The boys may not be any
easier to live with, but I've had an easier time figuring out what they're
about. None of this 'I like you on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, except if
the Friday is also a full moon, in which case....'

Now Zoe, on the other hand...

Or maybe you need to sleep with both eyes open.

Suja