Kiba and Seperation Anxiety...

Last week I had a discussion here with Shelly and Janet about separation
anxiety, and they both suggested Kiba was suffering from this, as we had
never left him home alone without being in his crate. I, as usual, argued
with them, but also as usual, my self-doubts started kicking the **** out of
me, and got me wondering if Kiba really was suffering and I didn't know it.
The only way I could think to prove the question, one way or another, was to
film him when left alone.

Since my husband was on graveyard shift, last week was impossible to film.
If Kiba really did kick up a fuss, I sure didn't want him to wake the
working man. Thursday I lost my internet connection and the guy couldn't
come until today. Oh, the joys of backwoods living!

Anyway, today I got my first chance to film Kiba left home alone. I don't
have a digital movie camera, so my regular digital camera in video mode
would have to do. The quality is not good. I knew Kiba would spend a fair
amount of time at the door where I leave, so I placed the camera on a table
in the living room, pointing down towards the door, but allowing a view of
him if he came back into the living room.

I will describe the resulting video for those of you interested, and have no
broadband internet. For those who are interested in viewing the film, it's
he
Oh, and it's 3:31 long, so it may take a few minutes to load...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQUmxUScDu0

Kiba got his first clue that I was leaving when I picked up my purse.
Usually I will take him to his crate, give him one of his special
"crate-only" cookies, and put him in. This time I got my purse, and took my
car keys from the hook. Now he KNEW I was going out. I didn't look at him,
just walked to the doorway, put on my coat and opened the door. I had to
say, "Back" to him, as he wanted to slip out the door with me, but I exited
without any fuss on his part. I may have said, "Be back in sec" although I
tried not to talk to him much. I didn't want to cause any excitement.

BTW, I made sure all the doors in the house were closed before I left. Why
tempt fate?

The tape shows Kiba sitting at the door when I leave. He doesn't cry, he
doesn't scratch at the door, he doesn't whine. You can hear the TV in the
background, but I know it wouldn't cover the sound of any distress on his
part. He leaves the door to come back into the living room. I can tell by
his body language that while we can't see him in the frame, he most likely
jumps on the back of the couch to look out the window. He heads back to the
door to lay and wait. He does this two or three times, but not in a manic
fashion. His tail is slowly wagging at one point. His tail is level to his
back, neither high nor low, just as it is when he's content.

I edited about four minutes out of the movie to cut out some of the
"absolutely nothing happening but Kiba out of frame" shots. It may look
like Kiba is pacing with regularity between the door and the living room,
but there is actually some time between each trip. Please excuse the
editing. I've never edited a movie before, and the software is all new to
me.

I was back from the post office in about five minutes (the unedited movie,
from me turning on the camera to me shutting it off is 7:41). When I came
home, Kiba was waiting for me at the door. He wasn't delirious to see me,
but glad, which I was happy to see too. Apparently over-happy greetings
mean separation anxiety too! Kiba actually walked out on the porch for a
few seconds after I came home and I closed the door behind him. He opened
it up pretty much right away, and accompanied me back into the house. It
was quiet and calm.

So, did we do OK? Or should I be watching for some other symptom? I'm
comfy with his performance today, but what the hell do I know?

Thanks for listening,
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

On 2008-11-04 21:20:29 -0500, "Phyrie" said:

So, did we do OK?

It looked like Kiba's first time being left alone uncrated. Seemed like
a fine start. Slow and steady wins that race.

While we have to be careful about greetings when we return home, we
always cue the dogs that we are leaving without them by telling them to
guard the house.

When we tell them that, they don't bother to follow us to the door.
They greet our arrival, but that's it.

"montana wildhack" wrote in message
news:2008110421380427544-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
On 2008-11-04 21:20:29 -0500, "Phyrie"
said:

So, did we do OK?

It looked like Kiba's first time being left alone uncrated. Seemed like a
fine start. Slow and steady wins that race.

It was his first time... I was WAY more nervous than he was...

While we have to be careful about greetings when we return home, we always
cue the dogs that we are leaving without them by telling them to guard the
house.

Kiba greets us like a maniac when we pick him up from the babysitters' after
a trip. I, shamefaced, encourage it... You know, "Oh, there he IS!! What a
boy!! Oh, man, we missed YOU!!" accompanied by delirious puppy jumping all
over us, kissing, kissing, kissing.... How could you NOT encourage that
kind of love?
Coming home today, he was totally, "Oh, I'm glad you're home, let's go sit
down."

When we tell them that, they don't bother to follow us to the door. They
greet our arrival, but that's it.

Heh, Kiba will not be a guard dog, even in his most grandest imaginings.
The internet tech who was here today will agree, he is VERY friendly. Kiba
is convinced that everyone he meets loves him, or will shortly. He's
usually correct.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

"Phyrie" said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Last week I had a discussion here with Shelly and Janet
about separation anxiety, and they both suggested Kiba was
suffering from this, as we had never left him home alone
without being in his crate.

I may have missed that. I advise that their advice is usually
better than my own.

My advice, in this case, is to stop following advice. Really,
stop everything and think about your own goals. You've written
a lot about Kiba, I'd like you to write about your goals with
Kiba.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" wrote in message
...
"Phyrie" said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Last week I had a discussion here with Shelly and Janet
about separation anxiety, and they both suggested Kiba was
suffering from this, as we had never left him home alone
without being in his crate.

I may have missed that. I advise that their advice is usually
better than my own.

Oh, it was a digression in the "Introducing Harley" thread. Funny, going
back to look at it now, I was responding your post about getting a dog for
Christmas. I said later, in a following post, that Kiba hadn't been alone
since we brought him home. Which prompted Shelly and Janet to diagnose
separation anxiety. After one post. Which bothered the hell out of me, but
since they seem to be knowledgeable and respected here, I had to give some
merit. Shelly somehow managed to make my concern for Kiba's well-being
sound like I was using his perceived distress as an ego boost for myself and
that pissed me off.

But rather than jump in with both feet, blind-folded and flailing as usual,
I thought about it, and wondered if there was any credence to what they had
been saying. The ego-thing, NO...they are dead wrong. But was I doing
wrong by Kiba? Did he suffer from separation anxiety and I'm too ignorant
to realize? I'm new and I know I have a lot to learn. Hell, if it helps my
dog, I'm willing to entertain all options. That's what prompted the filming
exercise we did today.

My advice, in this case, is to stop following advice. Really,
stop everything and think about your own goals. You've written
a lot about Kiba, I'd like you to write about your goals with
Kiba.

Wow, no one's asked me that before....

I want Kiba to be a good citizen. I want him to be friendly, unafraid, and
unobnoxious. I want to be able to take him to visit out at my mom's and be
welcome (she isn't fond of animals).

I want to raise a happy dog. I want him to be stimulated, engaged and
interested in his life with us. He has his basic obedience down, and he
loves to learn new things. I want to be consistent enough to teach him what
he wants to know.

A goal? I wish Kiba would be able to go outside the fence to the garage
with my husband and not be tied. I wish we could trust him not to jet over
to the neighbour's to talk to their dog. The fact that the neighbours love
him, and the older lady there loves for him to come in and visit, and makes
him very welcome when he does, doesn't help.

I guess I just want a dog. You know, the old-fashioned kind, that you love
and care for, that loves you back. I'm not in need of ribbons, cups, titles
or awards. Wouldn't know where to go to get them if I did. I want to do a
good job, as his "mom", and not **** up this perfectly nice little dog who's
willing to work so hard to please me.

I guess that's my goal. Don't **** this up. I think that's why I worry so
much. I know that I have a lot to learn, and am concerned that I'm doing
something wrong. Being inconsistent and lazy doesn't help. Kiba is
amazingly forgiving if I have to take a whole day off to stay in bed because
my back is bad. But I feel bad FOR him. I've read tons of books and ask
lots of questions, but my old self-flagellating self must have it's day.

It's weird, it seems every time I post something here, someone thinks
there's something wrong with Kiba or me. I've had more arguments with total
strangers for the most personal reasons here than in my whole life. I find
it distressing. I hang out here because I think the people have valid,
interesting and valuable things to say about dogs. The fact that some of
them seem to think little of me just reinforces my concern about raising my
dog well. You know the old joke about paranoia... maybe it's true about dog
training too.

I'm sure this is way more than you wanted to know, and I'll be clobbered
again for being such a wuss. If nothing else, today's filming exercise has
me pretty much convinced that Kiba Home Alone is not a cause for alarm, and
he isn't suffering from emotional distress if we go out for bit. So it's
not all bad, right?
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/

"Phyrie" wrote in message
...

I said later, in a following post, that Kiba hadn't been alone since
we brought him home. Which prompted Shelly and Janet to diagnose
separation anxiety.

No. You described him as getting "upset" when you leave him alone (but
not when he's left alone and crated, which struck me as important).
Now, you're saying he's never been left alone before. You said that you
want a dog that gets excited when you come home, because you want to
know that your dog loves you. Now you're saying that he doesn't get
excited when you come home.

My point was that there are things you can do to minimize a problem, if
there is one, or stave it off, if circumstances (him never getting a
chance to figure out how to be by himself) or temperament (some dogs are
just plain anxious in general) indicate that one could develop. I would
personally rather head a problem off at the pass. If you choose to
ignore that advice, that's obviously your business.

If it's any consolation, I've criticized Diddy for the exact same issue.
It doesn't mean that I think she's not a great dog owner (I do!), but
she is comfortable living with a level of SA that I wouldn't want to
live with. Her lifestyle (and yours, apparently) can accommodate that,
and if your dog isn't suffering, then like I said, that's your business.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

In article ,
"Phyrie" wrote:


Usually I will take him to his crate, give him one of his special
"crate-only" cookies, and put him in. This time I got my purse, and took my
car keys from the hook. Now he KNEW I was going out.

I'll watch the video in a few, but wanted to comment on this. I don't
go "cold turkey" with a dog used to being crated. I go through the very
same routine, but don't close the crate door. My dogs STILL all get a
small treat when I leave the house, even though there is no crate in
sight.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

In article ,
"Phyrie" wrote:


I'm sure this is way more than you wanted to know, and I'll be clobbered
again for being such a wuss. If nothing else, today's filming exercise has
me pretty much convinced that Kiba Home Alone is not a cause for alarm, and
he isn't suffering from emotional distress if we go out for bit. So it's
not all bad, right?

In all honesty, it's your insecurity that brings the judgement! We
ALL worry about stuff. We ALL miss our dogs and don't have them to
leave them home 12 hours a day. But most of us also know that OUR
behavior is a huge part of how they handle life and we have a duty to
help them be secure, confident and lovely dogs.

YOU had posted that he whined, scratched, etc, etc, (or that you THOUGHT
he did). Aren't you glad to find out that he does not? I sure am!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Rocky" wrote in message
...
I may have missed that. I advise that their advice is usually
better than my own.

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Don't under estimate yourself, Matt. Your advice is pretty sound.
Alison

On 2008-11-05 01:34:28 -0500, "Phyrie" said:

Did he suffer from separation anxiety and I'm too ignorant
to realize?

Sometimes we don't see that we're starting down a path that may not
lead where we want. I'd like to suggest that this was the case in your
situation. You had described some things that sent up warning flags and
they were duly noted. You thought about it and took action in an
incredibly positive manner. That's great.

Now it seems that you are interested training Kiba to get used to being
in the house alone and uncrated. Of course you can keep the crate for
him and you can still crate him as needed.

Matt also offered a great suggestion which you seem open to.

This is very good, the way I see it. Nothing but good. Keep working
with him and you'll get what you want. When we think of the kind of dog
we want, we think of the end product, not all the training that goes
into getting to the end.

And Kiba is adorable. He'll figure out what to do with himself when he's alone.