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  #1  
Old June 20th 12, 11:50 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
canisfamiliaris
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Posts: 38
Default clever dog

hope this link works. If it does, enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXpjX...&feature=share
alison 8the other one)
  #2  
Old June 21st 12, 09:55 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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canisfamiliaris wrote on 20/06/2012 :
hope this link works. If it does, enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXpjX...&feature=share
alison 8the other one)


That's nothing. Our Lexi (brother of the dog we presently have), at six
months taught herself to open doors by pulling the handles down. She
could even manage to open them when they opened into the room. Later
she learned how to push the car window buttons to open them.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #3  
Old June 22nd 12, 11:11 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
canisfamiliaris
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Posts: 38
Default clever dog

On 21 jun, 22:55, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
.. Our Lexi (brother of the dog we presently have), at six months
taught herself to open doors by pulling the handles down. She could
even manage to open them when they opened into the room. Later she
learned how to push the car window buttons to open them.
-----

Some dogs are seriously smart. My late Rugby (aka Rug) could also open
doors by pulling their handles. He was definitely a thinking dog, and,
like Lexi, was half border collie. When you looked at him, you could
see a mind working. His nephew, Conor, is a sweetie, has been a good
ratter, used to protect my back against our ram when I fed the sheep,
he's a great dog, but not half as bright as Rug was.

Alison amid black kites, little owls and partridges.
  #4  
Old June 22nd 12, 03:59 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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Default clever dog

canisfamiliaris formulated the question :
Some dogs are seriously smart. My late Rugby (aka Rug) could also open
doors by pulling their handles. He was definitely a thinking dog, and,
like Lexi, was half border collie. When you looked at him, you could
see a mind working. His nephew, Conor, is a sweetie, has been a good
ratter, used to protect my back against our ram when I fed the sheep,
he's a great dog, but not half as bright as Rug was.


Indeed, I was surprised at just how the intelligence or cleverness of
brother and sister are so different. When unable to open the outside
door and wanting to get in, she would nudge the door and give a quick
bark to ask to come in. He just stands there waiting for someone to
notice him and let him in. She would empty her water dish and leave you
in no doubt it needed refilling, he gives no indication at all. She
whilst still a pup, would empty her food dish and bring it to you for a
top up. He at almost 7 has only just learnt to do that and he certainly
hasn't learnt how to press car window buttons yet to open them.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #5  
Old June 25th 12, 09:40 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
canisfamiliaris
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Posts: 38
Default clever dog

On 22 jun, 16:59, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Indeed, I was surprised at just how the intelligence or cleverness of brother and sister are so different. When unable to open the outside door and wanting to get in, she would nudge the door and give a quick bark to ask to come in. He just stands there waiting for someone to notice him and let him in. She would empty her water dish and leave you in no doubt it needed refilling, he gives no indication at all. She whilst still a pup, would empty her food dish and bring it to you for a top up. He at almost 7 has only just learnt to do that and he certainly hasn't learnt how to press car window buttons yet to open them.

Was pondering this over the weekend, and looking up canine
intelligence in Miklosi's book on dogs. He makes the point that some
breeds can do certain things better than others because they have been
bred for certain tasks, but that doesn't necessarily make them more
intelligent. Conor, for example, can see TV and recognise cartoon
hedgehogs - he goes up and barks at them. He also responds to the
Spanish word for hedgehog. He is a quarter cavvie, so has eyes further
to the front and vision more similar to human vision than, say, pure
collies. Not all dogs can see, let alone recognise images on TV.

Now, with your current and past dogs, the issue of communication will
be important. You had the sister from a pup, so you learnt to
communicate with each other easily. Your current dog arrived as an
adult and had lived with siblings, so had a less intense relationship
with humans, and had to learn how to communicate with you as an adult.
Much more difficult. As for Rug and Conor, Rug had very expressive
body language and a very wide vocal range, like a husky. He was half
keeshond and a two breed mix. It was very easy and very rewarding to
communicate with him. His nephew, Conor is a 4-breed mix, is less
expressive, both in body language and vocal flexibility, and that is
genetic. Some dogs are more difficult to read, like poker players, but
that doesn't make them dumber than the expressive dogs.

Then there is deference. The way you describe the brother, he seems
very deferential. Conor is deferential too. There is a lot that he
could do, like escape, but doesn't because he doesn't have permission.
Rug was far less deferential.You dog's mirroring your human
alternating leadership may be part of this deference, ie you and your
human partner seem to have alternating leadership, with you as leader
outside the home, but not inside the home. So maybe dog is respecting
this human arrangement, and needs permission from whoever is in the
leadership role according to the context. For example, the leader
starts an activity then hands dog over to the other human, encouraging
dog to do what the other human says. I used to hand the lead to
husband after Rug had hidden under table and I had got him out. That
worked, they went out with no fuss.

Also there is motivation, eg collies tend to like retrieving, so it's
easier to teach them to retrieve named objects.

So it's not a simple issue, and we may both be underestimating our
dogs!

Alison in a hot Spanish village
  #6  
Old June 26th 12, 05:22 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Jo Wolf
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Posts: 479
Default clever dog

Yeh, there's some really interesting stuff being published in scientific
journals now about canine intelligence..... Bright characters....

Note about television..... alluded to above. Dogs that are more likely
to watch television, and recognize images are those with a shorter
muzzle and eyes placed forward. This with longer, narrower muzzles and
eyes on the sides of the head are less likely to be television watchers,
and if so, react most to motion o the screen. That was an elegant
little piece of research I read about a couple of years ago.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA

  #7  
Old June 26th 12, 11:51 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
canisfamiliaris
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Posts: 38
Default clever dog

On 26 jun, 06:22, (Jo Wolf) wrote:
(...) Dogs that are more likely to watch television, and recognize images are those with a shorter muzzle and eyes placed forward. *This with longer, narrower muzzles and eyes on the sides of the head are less likely to be television watchers, and if so, react most to motion o the screen. *That was an elegant little piece of research I read about a couple of years ago.

Do you remember the title, Jo?

There's a photo in Miklosi's book (think the title is Dogs, Behaviour,
Evolution and Cognition) showing how dogs see the world according to
whether their eyes are at the side or the front of their heads. A
cavvie is used as a breed example for eyes at the front, and what the
cavvie sees is in terms of what is in the picture is very like what a
human sees, whereas dogs with eyes at the side of the head see a more
panoramic view.

Miklosi notes that dogs with eyes at the front are better able to
focus on humans, and so interpret our facial expressions and gestures.
They are less distracted by what is going on at the side of us. So, he
argues they can, for example follow human pointing gestures, and the
direction of the human gaze (can't remember if he quotes studies on
this. Probably). But it's not just genetics. Toby, an ex outdoor
hunting dog, had very little contact with humans prior to coming to
me. It took a long time to teach him to look at my face. He eventually
learnt to follow pointing gestures, though it took a while. My sister
took on an ex-kennel breeding beagle bitch, and reported the same
reluctance of the dog to look at her face - she had previously owned a
beagle. Dogs learn to look at our faces for cues, but if they spend
most of their time with other dogs, they may not learn this, and may
be wary of staring at us, because that could be seen as an implied
threat in dog language.

Conor's sister can't see what's on TV, and neither could Rug. I have
asked around, and few dogs can. Conor can distinguish between
different animals on TV, and recognise their cartoon versions. He used
to bark at bulls as though they were a serious threat. (They show a
lot of bullfights in Spain) He is a bold dog when dealing with threats
in everyday life, so I became cautious about letting him watch bulls,
and called him to me and told him to stay by my side when a bull
appeared on the screen. He does connect what he sees on TV with real
life, and he might have learnt to bark close to real life bulls from
the TV ...

Alison in Spain
  #8  
Old June 26th 12, 06:40 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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Posts: 13
Default clever dog

canisfamiliaris brought next idea :
Conor, for example, can see TV and recognise cartoon
hedgehogs - he goes up and barks at them. He also responds to the
Spanish word for hedgehog. He is a quarter cavvie, so has eyes further
to the front and vision more similar to human vision than, say, pure
collies. Not all dogs can see, let alone recognise images on TV.


I forgot to mention - his sister was absolutely obsessed with sheep.
She would hang out of the car window if passing them in a field. She
also could definitely see what was on the TV screen, any sheep on the
screen she would be up and nose to the screen, following any movement
they made. There was a TV ad for Specsaver, where the short sighted
Shepard was shearing sheep then went on to accidently shear his sheep
dog. It had some distinctive music and where ever she might be, on
hearing the tune she would come running to watch it.

When it was raining heavily and in the car, she would open the window
and try to catch the splashes as we went through the puddles.

I don't think he sees anything on the TV screen, or at least he has
never shown any interest. Nor has any any interest in sheep.

The one thing they both shared, is being obsessed with moving light/
shadows/ reflections from mirrors and following the red dot from a
laser pointer. Both loved to chase the dot. Sometimes now, he will not
touch his food unless you get the pointer out and shine it in his dish.
He brings the pointer and insists you shine it.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #9  
Old June 27th 12, 07:06 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Jo Wolf
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Posts: 479
Default clever dog

No, I can't recall more about that article on dogs and TV. I read about
it as a science news article.... The emphasis was that the dogs with
the front-facing eyes have much the same binocular focus that we do, but
with good peripheral vision. The dogs with side-placed eyes do not have
binocular vision that's as acute as the others, but see a wider field of
vision for movement.... IIRC, the research was done in Hungary.

A good friend had Tibetan Spaniels when that breed was new to the US
(1980s). Her male was addicted to the Wheel of Fortune quiz show
re-runs that came on at 4:30 in the afternoon on weekdays. He'd come to
the living room just before the theme music began to play, and hop up in
one specific chair. He'd be glued to te screen until the commercial
came on, and would hop down and putter around until the theme played
again and hop back up. When the theme played and the credits ran, he'd
go about his business. If he was away from home at that time, he'd get
restless, and look around, as if looking for a tv..... but not on
weekends. That was the only show he gave a bit of interest to.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA

  #10  
Old June 27th 12, 10:25 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
canisfamiliaris
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Posts: 38
Default clever dog

On 27 jun, 08:06, (Jo Wolf) wrote:
No, I can't recall more about that article on dogs and TV. *I read about it as a science news article.... *The emphasis was that the dogs with the front-facing eyes have much the same binocular focus that we do, but with good peripheral vision. *The dogs with side-placed eyes do not have binocular vision that's as acute as the others, but see a wider field of vision for movement.... *IIRC, the research was done in Hungary.


Hello Jo. The reference in Miklosi's Dog, Behavior, Evolution and
Cognition is on p128 'short-nosed dogs perform better in using a
momentary pointing cue for hidden food'
This in turn comes from Gracsi et al´s 'Effects of selection for co-
operation and attention', with a given date of 2009, but it had just
been submitted when Miklosi's book was written, so there is no journal
given. I have actually seen a reference to that article with an
abstract recently. Will try to find it full text. It may be the one
you are thinking of, Jo. Miklosi is one of the authors.

Watching TV is about more than just eye position, but being a
techidummy, I am not sure about the details. Something to do with how
often the image changes on the TV, which is geared to human, but not
canine eyes.

Hello Harry. Rug also had little quirks about eating. He was often a
slow eater, but liked to eat when the phone went, and saying
'telephone' encouraged him to eat. My mum's (border) collie cross was
an obsessive sheepdog, but her younger full sister from a different
litter wasn't. They were a three-breed mix, a quarter lab, quarter
spaniel and half collie, and for some reason, spaniel-collie crosses
seem to turn out very collie-like. These sisters had very different
personalities. The older dog had 'presence', and intensity. The
younger dog was quite goofy. I used to take her to the Dog club
Christmas party, and her reaction to Yorkies was very funny. She hid
behind my legs and peeked out, asking 'You call that thing a dog?'
Each dog had her strengths and weaknesses. I liked the intensity of
the older sister, and the easy-going nature of the younger sister. So
what are your current dog's strengths compared with his sister?

Alison, in hot and muggy Spain
 




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