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Adjuvants in vaccines



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 27th 11, 01:21 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/26/2011 7:32 PM, cshenk wrote:
"Jo Wolf" wrote

BTW, the big Miami-Dade County animal control shelter is currently
closed to canine intake of all types due to distemper and parvo,
following a rumored 50 deaths. They will adopt and return-to-owner,
with the disease caveat. This was posted on a rescue group devoted
solely to reporting shelter health problems so rescues know if the
shelter they are about to pull from is currently in the midst of an
outbreak..... They've brought in the the shelter health communicable
disease specialists to help them develop a more effective operating
system within their financial and facility limits.


The scariest thing is someone might believe Char's insinuation that
raw feeding confers no need for parvo/distemper/rabies shots.
Fortunately there are enough sane folks on the topic to hopefully keep
it straight.

No, the scariest thing is you pretending you know anything at all about
vaccine damage. Oh, and although I raw feed not all people who have
found, through valid research, that vaccines cause harm, feed raw. It
certainly does vastly improve health though and the number of people
converting to a species appropriate diet is increasing daily.

Do you think these studies are lies? Have you even bothered to read it?

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/...ineDamage.html
  #12  
Old March 27th 11, 01:28 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
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Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/26/2011 8:14 PM, buglady wrote:
wrote in message
m...
On 3/25/2011 8:17 PM, buglady wrote:

My point is why worry about adjuvants when the vaccine itself causes even
more harm? Jabs are a no win situation and since there isn't always an
immediate reaction to it there is rarely a connection made between that
reaction and the vaccine.

Getting one or two rabies shots isn't optional AFAIC. Especially for a cat
who goes outside sometimes.


Why not? Is the risk worth it? Have you read this?
http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/...ineDamage.html

"The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Vaccine-Associated
Feline Sarcoma Task Force initiated several studies to find out why
160,000 cats each year in the USA develop terminal cancer at their
vaccine injection sites.(3) The fact that cats can get vaccine-induced
cancer has been acknowledged by veterinary bodies around the world, and
even the British Government acknowledged it through its Working Group
charged with the task of looking into canine and feline vaccines(4)
following pressure from Canine Health Concern. What do you imagine was
the advice of the AVMA Task Force, veterinary bodies and governments?
"Carry on vaccinating until
we find out why vaccines are killing cats, and which cats are most
likely to die."

In America, in an attempt to mitigate the problem, they're vaccinating
cats in the tail or leg so they can amputate when cancer appears. Great
advice if it's not your cat amongst the hundreds of thousands on the
"oops" list.

But other species are okay - right? Wrong. In August 2003, the Journal
of Veterinary Medicine carried an Italian study which showed that dogs
also develop vaccine-induced cancers at their injection sites.(5) We
already know that vaccine-site cancer is a possible sequel to human
vaccines, too, since the Salk polio vaccine was said to carry a monkey
retrovirus (from cultivating the vaccine on monkey organs) that produces
inheritable cancer. The monkey retrovirus SV40 keeps turning up in human
cancer sites."

Do you not know that our pets can build immunity naturally and don't
need them given artificially?



As for the rest, I know all that.


Good for you!
Char

buglady
take out the dog before replying



  #13  
Old March 27th 11, 04:59 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Jo Wolf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 479
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

Indeed, Char thinks that raw feeding is the all-to-end-all, and if Char
can Prove that the dog with the enlarged heart developed same from
vaccines, we can call her a scientist.... Which she ain't.

Being an old bag, I well remember the days when puppies, and even a few
adults, routinely died of distemper, or suffered the sequeli of the
disease. And I also remember the awful few years between the emergence
of parvo and the vaccine.... sweated that era out with my Dane, who
stayed healthy, but certainly not due to raw feeding.

Of course, the reasons that puppies die of parvo are 1.) that they were
never vaccinated, 2.) that they were exposed before they were vaccinated
and had time to develop antibodies, or 3.) that initial or first booster
vaccinations were given before their bodies were mature enough to
develop antibodies from the vaccine and they were exposed.... this being
the reason that the final parvo shot is given at 16-20 weeks.

The reason her dogs have fared well is NOT due to raw feeding, but due
to the fact that she has lived in a community with a high proportion of
vaccinated dogs..... community immunity.

We are seeing a failure of community immunity internationally now with
humans.... with measles.... due to failure to vaccinate. We still see
it in some countries, due to failure to vaccinate for polio.... or due
to failure to maintain a good level of vaccination for polio. I grew up
in the era when that disease was devastating here in the US, and had a
classmate who was braced to the waist and wore at least one wrist brace
so he could use crutches. The bigger boys in the class had to lift
Kenny up and down steps.... through all 12 grades.... because all of our
schools were 2-storey. That was just in my class.... in a small town.
There were others. Polio had a much higher attack rate in large cities,
where people were more densely packed.

I am not denying that vaccination has side effects; we are learning more
about the periods of effectiveness. (I just needed to renew my tetanus,
and was certainly not surprised to that my shot included whooping cough,
since it's been found that vaccinated humans, and adults who have Had
the disease (including me), are no longer assured of immunity and are
carrying the disease..... with a huge increase in attack rate in
infants.... California being the hardest hit.) In dogs, yes, the big
research project is projecting an effective period for canine rabies
immunity to at least 5 years.... but NOT "for life" at this time. I
just don't see a vaccine side effect lurking behind every blade of grass
because I see immunization as an acceptable risk.

Reports in cats of local tumor development in repeatedly used injection
sites for vaccines does raise considerable concern. An "easy" solution
is to use more sites to see if rotation is the answer or merely
disburses local tumor development. Then it's time to panic....

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

  #14  
Old March 27th 11, 05:22 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/27/2011 11:59 AM, Jo Wolf wrote:
Indeed, Char thinks that raw feeding is the all-to-end-all, and if Char
can Prove that the dog with the enlarged heart developed same from
vaccines, we can call her a scientist.... Which she ain't.


I don't have to be. Scientists have done that for me. I will post this
link a third time for those who can't seem to read for comprehension.

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/...ineDamage.html

"Dr Larry Glickman, who spearheaded the Purdue research into
post-vaccination biochemical changes in dogs, wrote in a letter to
Cavalier Spaniel breeder Bet Hargreaves:

"Our ongoing studies of dogs show that following routine
vaccination, there is a significant rise in the level of antibodies
dogs produce against their own tissues. Some of these antibodies
have been shown to target the thyroid gland, connective tissue such
as that found in the valves of the heart, red blood cells, DNA, etc.
I do believe that the heart conditions in Cavalier King Charles
Spaniels could be the end result of repeated immunisations by
vaccines containing tissue culture contaminants that cause a
progressive immune response directed at connective tissue in the
heart valves. The clinical manifestations would be more pronounced
in dogs that have a genetic predisposition [although] the findings
should be generally applicable to all dogs regardless of their breed."

"Merck warns in its Manual that patients with, or from families
with, B and/or T cell immunodeficiencies should not receive
live-virus vaccines due to the risk of severe or fatal infection.
Elsewhere, it lists features of B and T cell immunodeficiencies as
food allergies, inhalant allergies, eczema, dermatitis, neurological
deterioration and heart disease."

Can you read that? Understand it? Why would I have to be a scientist
to read about studies done by scientists?

Char

  #15  
Old March 27th 11, 05:37 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Jo Wolf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 479
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

And about rabies..... I'm one of few nurses in the US who has cared
for a rabies patient, the human kind. Many years ago, when I was a
nurses aide, actually. It was one of 2 cases in the US that year. Due
to a dog bite.... an unvaccinated Owned stray. The man refused
prophyllactic vaccination.... It is a horrible death that could have
been prevented, twice. Even 52 years ago.

I live in the second largest metro area in Georgia. We have family dogs
attacked by rabid raccoons several times a year in our 6 county area of
GA and SC. Most are in neighborhoods, not rural areas. 80% of those
dogs are not current on their rabies vaccinations and are euthanized
because their owners are neither willing nor able ($$$$) to have the
dogs totally isolated for 6 months.... IF there was a facility offering
this.

I monitor a trio of communicable disease groups for medical/public
health personnel.... human, veterinary and agricultural.... and read the
US summary for rabies reports each month. Central Park in NYC has had a
burst of rabid raccoons this year..... 2-3 years ago, a 6-8 week old
Border Collie puppy bought at a flea market was taken to show-and-tell
at the school of children of the family.... Days later it developed
clinical rabies. Talk about a local public health panic! Justifiably.
The pup SHOULD have still had immunity from the mother.... but
didn't.... because the mom probably hadn't been vaccinated, and May have
been/Probably Was infected herself. The other puppies sold that weekend
were located and euthanized (all were rabies positive, although showing
no clinical signs yet), but the mother and her owner were never
identified.

The fact that most cases of human rabies in the US are due to bites by
rabid bats does not reduce the need to vaccinate pets. A few years ago
ladies working in a huge office park in the Atlanta area had been
feeding and playing with a kitten in the area.... until it attacked and
bit someone who had the presence of mind to hold onto the kitten and
take it to a vet. It was rabid. Another public health flap that was
fully justfied.

Yes, there was that teenager in the US (MN?) who survived rabies due to
medical experimentation in a major teaching institution. The protocol
used for her has not been successful in the few (2-3) cases where it has
been tried in medical centers in other Western countries. There have
been, IIRC, something like 4-5 known "natural" (unexplainable) survivals
of clinical rabies in humans, worldwide, since the disease has been
tracked.
The international death rate is still around 36,000 or more per
year..... India, China, and the vacation island of Bali and elsewhere in
Indonesia, Russia and it's former satellites, and the Phillepine Islands
are current hot spots, roughly in that order.

A few years ago, a street dog imported to the US from Puerto Rico by one
of the bleeding heart rescue groups to Massachusetts showed clinical
signs of rabies within days of arrival, and one dog similarly imported
from Iran for a GI has been rabid.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

  #16  
Old March 27th 11, 05:41 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
cshenk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,078
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

"Jo Wolf" wrote

Indeed, Char thinks that raw feeding is the all-to-end-all, and if Char
can Prove that the dog with the enlarged heart developed same from
vaccines, we can call her a scientist.... Which she ain't.


True. But she's never going to find evidence of that. There are some
things that can cause an enlarged heart. Failure to protect against
heartworms is one of them if the dog gets them. Cash had a narrow escape
there. It's a bit abnormal but he's ok. His other issues are systemic from
them but so far holding steady.

Being an old bag, I well remember the days when puppies, and even a few
adults, routinely died of distemper, or suffered the sequeli of the
disease. And I also remember the awful few years between the emergence
of parvo and the vaccine.... sweated that era out with my Dane, who
stayed healthy, but certainly not due to raw feeding.


When I was 6, on Xmas eve, a stray bit me just under the eye. I almost had
to have the rabies preventive shots when they finally located the dog that a
neighbor was hiding. It tested clean but was put down for biting (not just
me, a few other kids too). There was no acceptance of dogs that bite and
zero from the community that several kids almost had to have a dangerous
preventive procedure.

I far perfer the 'must have rabies shots' though I have no problem with
reasonable rules on how often based in tests showing how often is enough.

Aunti Mabel will have a 1 year booster in (June? I think that is it, they
will let me know). Then it's a 3 year schedule.

Of course, the reasons that puppies die of parvo are 1.) that they were
never vaccinated, 2.) that they were exposed before they were vaccinated
and had time to develop antibodies, or 3.) that initial or first booster
vaccinations were given before their bodies were mature enough to
develop antibodies from the vaccine and they were exposed.... this being
the reason that the final parvo shot is given at 16-20 weeks.


Yes. Because there was no evidence of previous shots for Cash, Daisy-chan
(cat) or Mabel (rescues seldom have them), they all got the normal stuff.
Cash got extra based on my specific area due to severe underweight making
him more at risk but he's now on standard stuff.

The reason her dogs have fared well is NOT due to raw feeding, but due
to the fact that she has lived in a community with a high proportion of
vaccinated dogs..... community immunity.


Exactly. She's not aware of this though. Her dogs just are not being
exposed to much because most other owners are taking care of it.

We are seeing a failure of community immunity internationally now with
humans.... with measles.... due to failure to vaccinate. We still see
it in some countries, due to failure to vaccinate for polio.... or due
to failure to maintain a good level of vaccination for polio. I grew up
in the era when that disease was devastating here in the US, and had a
classmate who was braced to the waist and wore at least one wrist brace
so he could use crutches. The bigger boys in the class had to lift
Kenny up and down steps.... through all 12 grades.... because all of our
schools were 2-storey. That was just in my class.... in a small town.
There were others. Polio had a much higher attack rate in large cities,
where people were more densely packed.


Sad, I hope that doesnt come back. We are seeing it in the USA again due to
illegal immigrants. One of the cases where giving the kids free shots
protects our own.

I am not denying that vaccination has side effects; we are learning more
about the periods of effectiveness. (I just needed to renew my tetanus,
and was certainly not surprised to that my shot included whooping cough,
since it's been found that vaccinated humans, and adults who have Had
the disease (including me), are no longer assured of immunity and are
carrying the disease..... with a huge increase in attack rate in
infants.... California being the hardest hit.) In dogs, yes, the big
research project is projecting an effective period for canine rabies
immunity to at least 5 years.... but NOT "for life" at this time. I
just don't see a vaccine side effect lurking behind every blade of grass
because I see immunization as an acceptable risk.


I've had so many as a military member, I just find it sane. The anthrax set
is not fun, but i was in an area and time where it was needed.

Reports in cats of local tumor development in repeatedly used injection
sites for vaccines does raise considerable concern. An "easy" solution
is to use more sites to see if rotation is the answer or merely
disburses local tumor development. Then it's time to panic....


Grin, my vet tracks injection sites. he can bring up a little picture of all
that have been used.

LOL with me over the 'cat-scan'!

  #17  
Old March 27th 11, 05:49 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/26/2011 4:16 PM, Jo Wolf wrote:
BTW, the big Miami-Dade County animal control shelter is currently
closed to canine intake of all types due to distemper and parvo,
following a rumored 50 deaths. They will adopt and return-to-owner,
with the disease caveat. This was posted on a rescue group devoted
solely to reporting shelter health problems so rescues know if the
shelter they are about to pull from is currently in the midst of an
outbreak..... They've brought in the the shelter health communicable
disease specialists to help them develop a more effective operating
system within their financial and facility limits.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

Shelters and rescues have a horrible habit of giving vaccines without
knowing if the animal was already immune or not. Sometimes vaccines can
negate previous immunity, causing a lack of protection yet vets and
shelters and rescues don't seem to understand this and want to give
"boosters" which don't boost anything at all.
  #18  
Old March 27th 11, 05:53 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
cshenk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,078
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

"Char" wrote
Jo Wolf wrote:


Indeed, Char thinks that raw feeding is the all-to-end-all, and if Char
can Prove that the dog with the enlarged heart developed same from
vaccines, we can call her a scientist.... Which she ain't.


I don't have to be. Scientists have done that for me. I will post this
link a third time for those who can't seem to read for comprehension.

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/...ineDamage.html


So they say they are 'scientists' and you look no futher?

You take a speculative article as gospel?

You advocate no vaccinations and raw feeding as the answer. You then post
sites that advocate same as if 'it's on the internet, it must be true'.

Frankly any of us can post 100 sites that disagree but there's no point.
Those are the ones who don't support your opinion so you don't post them.

While over vaccination isnt the key, neither is lack of it as you espouse.

  #19  
Old March 27th 11, 06:15 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
cshenk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,078
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

"Char" wrote
Jo Wolf wrote:


BTW, the big Miami-Dade County animal control shelter is currently
closed to canine intake of all types due to distemper and parvo,
following a rumored 50 deaths. They will adopt and return-to-owner,
with the disease caveat. This was posted on a rescue group devoted
solely to reporting shelter health problems so rescues know if the
shelter they are about to pull from is currently in the midst of an
outbreak..... They've brought in the the shelter health communicable
disease specialists to help them develop a more effective operating
system within their financial and facility limits.


Shelters and rescues have a horrible habit of giving vaccines without
knowing if the animal was already immune or not. Sometimes vaccines can
negate previous immunity, causing a lack of protection yet vets and
shelters and rescues don't seem to understand this and want to give
"boosters" which don't boost anything at all.


There are several levels of 'wrong' in your post.

1- it isnt related to Jo's post which is an outbreak due to LACK of
vaccination. IE the dogs didn't die from vaccination of Parvo and
distempter, but LACK of vaccination for them.

2- Shelters and rescues have no history on the dogs (or cats) most of them
time. They are found as STRAYS and because of the high prevalance of
irresponsible owners who do not vaccinate, must be presumed to never have
had any.

3- Shelters and rescues operate on a shoestring budget to handle as many as
possible. They do the state mandated vaccinations but as they are often
taking in sick pets, it takes a bit and outbreaks can occur among the
non-vaccinated.

4- Just like with humans, an extra vaccination may not be needed, but it
never removes immunity. T-cells do not work that way.

  #20  
Old March 27th 11, 06:29 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
cshenk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,078
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

"Jo Wolf" wrote

And about rabies..... I'm one of few nurses in the US who has cared
for a rabies patient, the human kind. Many years ago, when I was a
nurses aide, actually. It was one of 2 cases in the US that year. Due
to a dog bite.... an unvaccinated Owned stray. The man refused
prophyllactic vaccination.... It is a horrible death that could have
been prevented, twice. Even 52 years ago.


Yeah, it was 1966 for me. Rabies was still a large fear which we have less
worry of now due to vaccinations. I esacped the shots by a mere 1 day. Mom
and the Docs had me all prepped up that they would hurt and make me really
sick. All this while the advent of plastic surgery was being done on my
face (that worked well, you have to hunt to find the scars).

It's still out there in the wild though.

I live in the second largest metro area in Georgia. We have family dogs
attacked by rabid raccoons several times a year in our 6 county area of
GA and SC. Most are in neighborhoods, not rural areas. 80% of those
dogs are not current on their rabies vaccinations and are euthanized
because their owners are neither willing nor able ($$$$) to have the
dogs totally isolated for 6 months.... IF there was a facility offering
this.


We had a scare here, apparently rabid fox. Chased 1 guy up tree. Dogs ran
away.

I monitor a trio of communicable disease groups for medical/public
health personnel.... human, veterinary and agricultural.... and read the
US summary for rabies reports each month. Central Park in NYC has had a
burst of rabid raccoons this year..... 2-3 years ago, a 6-8 week old
Border Collie puppy bought at a flea market was taken to show-and-tell
at the school of children of the family.... Days later it developed
clinical rabies. Talk about a local public health panic! Justifiably.
The pup SHOULD have still had immunity from the mother.... but
didn't.... because the mom probably hadn't been vaccinated, and May have
been/Probably Was infected herself. The other puppies sold that weekend
were located and euthanized (all were rabies positive, although showing
no clinical signs yet), but the mother and her owner were never
identified.

The fact that most cases of human rabies in the US are due to bites by
rabid bats does not reduce the need to vaccinate pets. A few years ago
ladies working in a huge office park in the Atlanta area had been
feeding and playing with a kitten in the area.... until it attacked and
bit someone who had the presence of mind to hold onto the kitten and
take it to a vet. It was rabid. Another public health flap that was
fully justfied.


Yes, there was that teenager in the US (MN?) who survived rabies due to
medical experimentation in a major teaching institution. The protocol
used for her has not been successful in the few (2-3) cases where it has
been tried in medical centers in other Western countries. There have
been, IIRC, something like 4-5 known "natural" (unexplainable) survivals
of clinical rabies in humans, worldwide, since the disease has been
tracked.
The international death rate is still around 36,000 or more per
year..... India, China, and the vacation island of Bali and elsewhere in
Indonesia, Russia and it's former satellites, and the Phillepine Islands
are current hot spots, roughly in that order.

A few years ago, a street dog imported to the US from Puerto Rico by one
of the bleeding heart rescue groups to Massachusetts showed clinical
signs of rabies within days of arrival, and one dog similarly imported
from Iran for a GI has been rabid.


It happens. Our vaccination schedule makes it less often here but on the
color map of rabies contries, we are a red zone due to wildlife.

 




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