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Adjuvants in vaccines



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 28th 11, 03:10 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
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Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/28/2011 8:25 AM, buglady wrote:
A lot? How many would that be? Would they get rabies if bitten
by a rabid animal? The rabies challenge is the ultimate test.


Yes it is, and just a start at showing we don't need to harm our pets
with repeated jabs.

Sure, you
can take that chance with your dog, but I'm not interested. I'd go
through
a lot of dogs to get an immune competent one who had been exposed to just
the right amount of rabies virus to form immunity.


Vaccinosis can be inherited. That means even though a dog had no shots
it can still show vaccine damage since it can alter DNA. Interesting and
macabre at the same time.

Anyway, a dog can pick up immunity from another immune dog. Especially
right after getting a vaccine, it is shed so taking your dog to a dog
park will cause immunities to build up naturally and without the jabs.

Since I'm on many groups centered on naturally raising your pets I'd
have to say I know of hundreds or thousands of dogs that aren't given
vaccines or got very few, especially once the owners' eyes were opened
to the reality of the damage caused. Having a dog that has autoimmune
diseases is not a pleasant experience.

Char



  #2  
Old March 28th 11, 06:13 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
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Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/28/2011 10:10 AM, Char wrote:
On 3/28/2011 8:25 AM, buglady wrote:

Sure, you
can take that chance with your dog, but I'm not interested. I'd go
through
a lot of dogs to get an immune competent one who had been exposed to
just
the right amount of rabies virus to form immunity.


One more point. There are a lot of people out there looking for dogs
that haven't had any shots and would even prefer that the parents
haven't either.

Immune competent. Vaccines destroy that. And since many vaccines are
given to dogs at the same dose, regardless of size it's the smaller ones
that suffer the most.

There are growing lists of breeders that breed naturally, with no
vaccines, no pesticides around or on the dogs, with species appropriate
foods. I would imagine that 20 years from now somebody will read this
thread and be amazed at what we purposely do to our pets, surrounding
them with harmful chemicals and even injecting them.
  #3  
Old March 28th 11, 07:00 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
buglady
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Posts: 863
Default Adjuvants in vaccines


"Char" wrote in message
m...
One more point. There are a lot of people out there looking for dogs that
haven't had any shots and would even prefer that the parents haven't
either.


.................good for them, I get whatever wanders into my life.

Immune competent. Vaccines destroy that.


.............that's an irresponsible blanket statement that has no meaning.

And since many vaccines are
given to dogs at the same dose, regardless of size it's the smaller ones
that suffer the most.


............Well, personally, I think small dogs are a lot more like cats in
reactivity to toxins. And then there's the issue of BYB - where way too
many of the smaller dogs hail from. They start out life at a distinct
disadvantage.


There are growing lists of breeders that breed naturally, with no
vaccines, no pesticides around or on the dogs, with species appropriate
foods. I would imagine that 20 years from now somebody will read this
thread and be amazed at what we purposely do to our pets, surrounding them
with harmful chemicals and even injecting them.


................And I'll bet you that some of them have lost whole or partial
litters to parvo. To get to the point you're talking about you have to be
willing to sacrifice animals to disease. Only the strong live.

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #4  
Old March 28th 11, 09:36 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
buglady
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Posts: 863
Default Adjuvants in vaccines


"Char" wrote in message
m...
On 3/28/2011 8:25 AM, buglady wrote:
A lot? How many would that be? Would they get rabies if bitten
by a rabid animal? The rabies challenge is the ultimate test.


Yes it is, and just a start at showing we don't need to harm our pets with
repeated jabs.


...............I'm not talking about the Rabies Challenge Study (Fund). I'm
talking about a dog with no rabies vaccine with some kind of antibody titer
getting bitten by a rabid animal - challenged by rabies.
http://tinyurl.com/4fu5w9t

Rabies, p. 173
"Immunity to rabies can involve both anatomic defenses, such as intact,
heavily furred, or cornified skin that aids in protection against bites (or
licks), and nonspecific inflammatory responses to foreign substances, as
well as specifically induced responses to viral antigens......Intact virus
can induce high lymphokine secretion, but induction of protective antiviral
immunity is based primarily on response to the glycoprotein (G protein). It
is the only Lyssavirus antigen known to induce virus-neutralizing antibody
(VNA) and plays a critical role in eliciting immunity. Nevertheless, there
is not always a clear relationship between level of VNA and resistance to
rabies, suggesting that other antigens and immune effector mechanisms likely
are involved in protection against lethal infection. Besides the G protein,
internal Lyssavirus antigens may possess the capacity to enhance immune
responsiveness, characterized either as superantigens or as powerful
adjuvants.
Viral exposure may or may not lead to a productive viral infection, which
may or may not result in detectable immune response. Demonstration of
rabies antibody in serum only indicates exposure to viral antigen. The
outcome following exposure depends in part on a complex interplay of viral
and host factors.............During the centripetal transport of limited
numbers of virons to the brain, especially during long incubation periods,
insufficient antigenic mass may be present for detection, which may fail to
induce an appropriate response. In contrast, highly neural invasive strains
might be quite immunogenic, but the host response could be slow or
inadequate to prevent or clear CNS replication in time, given the rather
immunologically privileged locatin of replication. If detected at all,
rabies-specifidc antibodies can be found at the onset of illness but may
appear more commonly concomitant with terminal stages of the disease."
[ ]
"Rates of specific acquired immunity to rabies in naturally exposed animals
vary.............In mongoose from Grenada, where the presence of rabies VNA
ranged from 9% upwards of 55%, seroprevalence was inversely proportional to
the number of reported rabies cases, and animals with preexisting VNA
responded with higher titers on rabies vaccination."

............it might be also instructive to read page 188. Racoon rabies
started in Florida in the 40s. You'll note at above pages (if you actually
read the book) they mention that immunity is 20% in racoons in Florida,
higher than elsewhere. If it was so easy for mammals to acquire immunity to
rabies, you'd think it would be a lot higher, having been here the longest.
Not to mention the high number of raccoons in the state.

.........There are different strains of rabies. Canine rabies is virtually
extinct in the US. That still leaves raccoon variant, fox, and skunks which
carry rabies. Different strains have different virulence. The presence of
antibodies in titers can also indicate an infection with rabies. No
antibodies doesn't mean the animal is not infected or protected, as the
titer could mean they actually have rabies. As noted above, if there's a
long incubation period in a rabies infection, sometimes there's no
antibodies present in serum, despite having rabies without symptoms.

Anyway, a dog can pick up immunity from another immune dog. Especially
right after getting a vaccine, it is shed so taking your dog to a dog
park will cause immunities to build up naturally and without the jabs.


........................OH? RABIES virus is shed after vaccination? Cites
please. In case you didn't know, the vaccine is a killed virus.

http://www.akcchf.org/canine-health/...ccination.html
"With killed vaccines, there is no risk of shedding,..."

.....If you're talking about MLV vaccines, then yes there can be shedding.,
especially if it has reverted to a pathogenic strain. But I'd think you'd
want that to happen if your dogs are going to "pick up" immunity from the
environment.

Since I'm on many groups centered on naturally raising your pets I'd have
to say I know of hundreds or thousands of dogs that aren't given vaccines


I'm talking about the rabies vaccine, not all vaccines. Nor am I speaking
about yearly vaccines with every antigen out there.

And in case anyone wants to read someone who addresses the subject honestly,
try Christie Keith:
http://www.caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm

Excellent discussion by a knowledgable poster. About cats, but still:
http://forums.webmd.com/3/pet-health...e/forum/2412/0

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #5  
Old March 28th 11, 10:19 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/28/2011 2:00 PM, buglady wrote:
wrote in message
m...
One more point. There are a lot of people out there looking for dogs that
haven't had any shots and would even prefer that the parents haven't
either.

................good for them, I get whatever wanders into my life.
Immune competent. Vaccines destroy that.

............that's an irresponsible blanket statement that has no meaning.


Let me explain it to ya since you don't understand. I posted a link
several times to an article that used several studies showing that
vaccines cause autoimmune diseases, more than one and even alter DNA.
They do. I think you are the one not being responsible by not checking
out the information that is out there, that I've put right under your
nose. I can't force you to read it but in no way can you call that
statement irresponsible once you have read about the damage vaccines do.
They cause the body to attack itself. That would in no way be immune
competent. What you want is in the opposite direction from where you are
looking. If you haven't done your research don't flame me when you don't
have a clue. It seems you are the one not being responsible.

And since many vaccines are
given to dogs at the same dose, regardless of size it's the smaller ones
that suffer the most.

...........Well, personally, I think small dogs are a lot more like cats in
reactivity to toxins.

No, they may be the same size but they are not more like cats. You
missed what I was saying. One size dose is given to all dogs. That means
a small dog can get a dose 20 times stronger than a large dog. Do you
think maybe if you took 20 doses of something it would not affect you?
And then there's the issue of BYB - where way too
many of the smaller dogs hail from. They start out life at a distinct
disadvantage.

I agree but it's not relevant.

There are growing lists of breeders that breed naturally, with no
vaccines, no pesticides around or on the dogs, with species appropriate
foods. I would imagine that 20 years from now somebody will read this
thread and be amazed at what we purposely do to our pets, surrounding them
with harmful chemicals and even injecting them.

...............And I'll bet you that some of them have lost whole or partial
litters to parvo.


Nothing is 100% effective against parvo. Of course some lost pups to it.
However a dog fed a species appropriate diet and not exposed to
pesticides like Frontline and Heartguard will naturally be healthier
than one that is jabbed multiple times a year, fed crap in a bag and
exposed to many chemicals constantly. You can tell the difference in
little ways, like larger litters, bigger pups, sparkling vitality.

To get to the point you're talking about you have to be
willing to sacrifice animals to disease. Only the strong live.


Still don't get it do ya? The place we natural rearing people want to be
is having less disease, longer lives, better quality of life. It works.
You have been given many facts by me in this thread. If you haven't
comprehended this by now you should give up replying. Kibble causes
kidney problems and diabetes. Vaccines cause autoimmune diseases and
cancer. Flea products cause cancer and seizures. We are saving our pets
from the greedy pet companies that sell inferior and harmful products.

Char
..
buglady
take out the dog before replying



  #6  
Old March 28th 11, 10:48 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Jo Wolf
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Posts: 479
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

We are discovering in humans that some viral vaccines do NOT provide
lifelong immunity. Measles is one such vaccine. That said, I HAD
measles (both rubella and rubeola), and have had a zero titer since
titers have been regularly used, have been vaccinated twice, and never
developed a positive titer. But in that time, I have cared for measles
cases without becoming infected.... on the assumption, well into the
1970s, that I was immune. So? Am I or am I not immune to the disease?
Who the heck knows?

Core vaccine titer levels for prevention are not well established for
dogs or cats, according to a former shelter vet who is very fascinated
by this field and keeps up with it. I have been told the same thing by
a friend who was a lab supervisor at Cornell's Baker Institute and my
breed's health-genetics chairperson.

Vaccines related polio cases are NOT in the people who were vaccinated
with a compitent vaccine. The newly vaccinated individuals have shed
the virus and infected others.

Now back to rabies vaccine in dogs. You can't make blanket statements
about the vaccine's lifespan until the long-term challenge is completed.
Period. That's why it is being done. It is not established What the
effective titer IS yet either.

In city/county shelters like Miami-Dade, the government is not going to
pay for titers to determine possible immunity. The animals come in
infected or pick it up after arrival.... from other infected animals.
They get 100-200 new animals per day, and apparently do not have the
facilities for quarantine on arrival. They can't pay a couple of
thousand bucks to try to treat the diseases; they euthanize. Some, like
the city/county shelters in my area, administer core vaccines minus
rabies if the dog is apparently healthy after several days of
quarantine. But they are able to quarantine. and they get some
overview about the vaccine status of strays by questionning citizens who
present their pets to the shelter, and connecting their residential
areas to those of animalspicked up in those areas. Since our largest
county has had the capacity and shelter design to quarantine on arrival,
they have not had a single state mandated "shut down" in those few
years, where in the old shack of a place, they were closed to intake and
adoption for two weeks an average of two times a year.

Rabies is the responsibility of the rescue/shelter or adoptor as this is
linked to the owner. For my vet to recognize the rabies vaccine given
elsewhere, I must present the certificate of rabies vaccination from the
vet that gave it. It is THE only legal proof of vaccination.
Otherwise, I must re-vaccinate a year after the initial one given by my
vet. Animal welfare organizations counsel adoptors on the rabies
schedule and provide the certificate to be copied and presented to the
vet. Some vets take the same approach for adults presented without
proof of core vaccine, although they will accept the shelter's record of
same.

Yes, some, not all, rescues/shelters attempt to treat newly appearing
parvo with the oral anti-virals, and they are having overall good
results. But city/county shelters are rarely funded for this, either.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

  #7  
Old March 29th 11, 12:36 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
cshenk
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Posts: 1,078
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

"buglady" wrote
"Char" wrote


And in case anyone wants to read someone who addresses the subject
honestly, try Christie Keith:
http://www.caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm


Excellent discussion by a knowledgable poster. About cats, but still:
http://forums.webmd.com/3/pet-health...e/forum/2412/0


Not bad and solid backing. You'll note Char is a one trick puppy. 'Feed
raw and don't vaccinate'. She knows nothing else as far as I can tell.


  #8  
Old March 29th 11, 02:34 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
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Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/28/2011 7:36 PM, cshenk wrote:
"buglady" wrote
"Char" wrote


And in case anyone wants to read someone who addresses the subject
honestly, try Christie Keith:
http://www.caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm


Excellent discussion by a knowledgable poster. About cats, but still:
http://forums.webmd.com/3/pet-health...e/forum/2412/0


Not bad and solid backing. You'll note Char is a one trick puppy.
'Feed raw and don't vaccinate'. She knows nothing else as far as I
can tell.


I know you lie a lot, from the first day you posted in this group.
  #9  
Old March 29th 11, 11:35 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/28/2011 5:48 PM, Jo Wolf wrote:
Vaccines related polio cases are NOT in the people who were vaccinated
with a compitent vaccine. The newly vaccinated individuals have shed
the virus and infected others.


There are two different polio vaccines out there. The first, pioneered
by Salk, is made from viruses that have been inactivated or "killed." It
protects those who are vaccinated but does not stop them from harboring
live viruses in their intestines. Should they encounter polio "in the
wild," they could become silent carriers and pass the pathogen on to
others who have not been inoculated. If polio were to break out--as it
did in the U.S. in the '50s, and as it has right now in parts of
India--the Salk vaccine would not protect the population at large. This
is the one you are referring to.

By contrast, the second preparation, which was championed by Sabin, is
made from weakened--yet not entirely docile--strains of the polio virus.
It provokes a more powerful immune response. If it doesn't give the
recipient polio, it not only protects those who are inoculated but also
prevents them from passing on any "wild-type" infections. That is small
consolation to parents like Carol Philips of Brooksville, Florida. Her
son Ryan, 10, developed polio soon after receiving the Sabin vaccine.
"If I had chosen the other," Philips says, "Ryan would be fine.''



  #10  
Old March 29th 11, 11:45 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Char
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Posts: 771
Default Adjuvants in vaccines

On 3/28/2011 5:48 PM, Jo Wolf wrote:
We are discovering in humans that some viral vaccines do NOT provide
lifelong immunity.

Indeed, the flu shots seem to be a total loser. If you look at
government statistics there was no drop in cases once the vaccine came out.

In Cuba it is documented that the same thing was going on there. The flu
shots were not helping at all. They switched to a Homeopathic solution
and the number of people with the flu fell like a rock.

Another reason not to get jabs. There is little if any proof they ever
worked. And don't even bring up polio as an example. It is well known
that polio was already on it's way out before the vaccines were ever
given. Matter of fact they may have kept polio around longer than it
might have because those very vaccines were infecting people.
 




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