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Adjuvants in vaccines
On 3/28/2011 8:25 AM, buglady wrote:
A lot? How many would that be? Would they get rabies if bitten by a rabid animal? The rabies challenge is the ultimate test. Yes it is, and just a start at showing we don't need to harm our pets with repeated jabs. Sure, you can take that chance with your dog, but I'm not interested. I'd go through a lot of dogs to get an immune competent one who had been exposed to just the right amount of rabies virus to form immunity. Vaccinosis can be inherited. That means even though a dog had no shots it can still show vaccine damage since it can alter DNA. Interesting and macabre at the same time. Anyway, a dog can pick up immunity from another immune dog. Especially right after getting a vaccine, it is shed so taking your dog to a dog park will cause immunities to build up naturally and without the jabs. Since I'm on many groups centered on naturally raising your pets I'd have to say I know of hundreds or thousands of dogs that aren't given vaccines or got very few, especially once the owners' eyes were opened to the reality of the damage caused. Having a dog that has autoimmune diseases is not a pleasant experience. Char |
#2
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Adjuvants in vaccines
On 3/28/2011 10:10 AM, Char wrote:
On 3/28/2011 8:25 AM, buglady wrote: Sure, you can take that chance with your dog, but I'm not interested. I'd go through a lot of dogs to get an immune competent one who had been exposed to just the right amount of rabies virus to form immunity. One more point. There are a lot of people out there looking for dogs that haven't had any shots and would even prefer that the parents haven't either. Immune competent. Vaccines destroy that. And since many vaccines are given to dogs at the same dose, regardless of size it's the smaller ones that suffer the most. There are growing lists of breeders that breed naturally, with no vaccines, no pesticides around or on the dogs, with species appropriate foods. I would imagine that 20 years from now somebody will read this thread and be amazed at what we purposely do to our pets, surrounding them with harmful chemicals and even injecting them. |
#3
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Adjuvants in vaccines
"Char" wrote in message m... One more point. There are a lot of people out there looking for dogs that haven't had any shots and would even prefer that the parents haven't either. .................good for them, I get whatever wanders into my life. Immune competent. Vaccines destroy that. .............that's an irresponsible blanket statement that has no meaning. And since many vaccines are given to dogs at the same dose, regardless of size it's the smaller ones that suffer the most. ............Well, personally, I think small dogs are a lot more like cats in reactivity to toxins. And then there's the issue of BYB - where way too many of the smaller dogs hail from. They start out life at a distinct disadvantage. There are growing lists of breeders that breed naturally, with no vaccines, no pesticides around or on the dogs, with species appropriate foods. I would imagine that 20 years from now somebody will read this thread and be amazed at what we purposely do to our pets, surrounding them with harmful chemicals and even injecting them. ................And I'll bet you that some of them have lost whole or partial litters to parvo. To get to the point you're talking about you have to be willing to sacrifice animals to disease. Only the strong live. buglady take out the dog before replying |
#4
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Adjuvants in vaccines
"Char" wrote in message m... On 3/28/2011 8:25 AM, buglady wrote: A lot? How many would that be? Would they get rabies if bitten by a rabid animal? The rabies challenge is the ultimate test. Yes it is, and just a start at showing we don't need to harm our pets with repeated jabs. ...............I'm not talking about the Rabies Challenge Study (Fund). I'm talking about a dog with no rabies vaccine with some kind of antibody titer getting bitten by a rabid animal - challenged by rabies. http://tinyurl.com/4fu5w9t Rabies, p. 173 "Immunity to rabies can involve both anatomic defenses, such as intact, heavily furred, or cornified skin that aids in protection against bites (or licks), and nonspecific inflammatory responses to foreign substances, as well as specifically induced responses to viral antigens......Intact virus can induce high lymphokine secretion, but induction of protective antiviral immunity is based primarily on response to the glycoprotein (G protein). It is the only Lyssavirus antigen known to induce virus-neutralizing antibody (VNA) and plays a critical role in eliciting immunity. Nevertheless, there is not always a clear relationship between level of VNA and resistance to rabies, suggesting that other antigens and immune effector mechanisms likely are involved in protection against lethal infection. Besides the G protein, internal Lyssavirus antigens may possess the capacity to enhance immune responsiveness, characterized either as superantigens or as powerful adjuvants. Viral exposure may or may not lead to a productive viral infection, which may or may not result in detectable immune response. Demonstration of rabies antibody in serum only indicates exposure to viral antigen. The outcome following exposure depends in part on a complex interplay of viral and host factors.............During the centripetal transport of limited numbers of virons to the brain, especially during long incubation periods, insufficient antigenic mass may be present for detection, which may fail to induce an appropriate response. In contrast, highly neural invasive strains might be quite immunogenic, but the host response could be slow or inadequate to prevent or clear CNS replication in time, given the rather immunologically privileged locatin of replication. If detected at all, rabies-specifidc antibodies can be found at the onset of illness but may appear more commonly concomitant with terminal stages of the disease." [ ] "Rates of specific acquired immunity to rabies in naturally exposed animals vary.............In mongoose from Grenada, where the presence of rabies VNA ranged from 9% upwards of 55%, seroprevalence was inversely proportional to the number of reported rabies cases, and animals with preexisting VNA responded with higher titers on rabies vaccination." ............it might be also instructive to read page 188. Racoon rabies started in Florida in the 40s. You'll note at above pages (if you actually read the book) they mention that immunity is 20% in racoons in Florida, higher than elsewhere. If it was so easy for mammals to acquire immunity to rabies, you'd think it would be a lot higher, having been here the longest. Not to mention the high number of raccoons in the state. .........There are different strains of rabies. Canine rabies is virtually extinct in the US. That still leaves raccoon variant, fox, and skunks which carry rabies. Different strains have different virulence. The presence of antibodies in titers can also indicate an infection with rabies. No antibodies doesn't mean the animal is not infected or protected, as the titer could mean they actually have rabies. As noted above, if there's a long incubation period in a rabies infection, sometimes there's no antibodies present in serum, despite having rabies without symptoms. Anyway, a dog can pick up immunity from another immune dog. Especially right after getting a vaccine, it is shed so taking your dog to a dog park will cause immunities to build up naturally and without the jabs. ........................OH? RABIES virus is shed after vaccination? Cites please. In case you didn't know, the vaccine is a killed virus. http://www.akcchf.org/canine-health/...ccination.html "With killed vaccines, there is no risk of shedding,..." .....If you're talking about MLV vaccines, then yes there can be shedding., especially if it has reverted to a pathogenic strain. But I'd think you'd want that to happen if your dogs are going to "pick up" immunity from the environment. Since I'm on many groups centered on naturally raising your pets I'd have to say I know of hundreds or thousands of dogs that aren't given vaccines I'm talking about the rabies vaccine, not all vaccines. Nor am I speaking about yearly vaccines with every antigen out there. And in case anyone wants to read someone who addresses the subject honestly, try Christie Keith: http://www.caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm Excellent discussion by a knowledgable poster. About cats, but still: http://forums.webmd.com/3/pet-health...e/forum/2412/0 buglady take out the dog before replying |
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Adjuvants in vaccines
On 3/28/2011 2:00 PM, buglady wrote:
wrote in message m... One more point. There are a lot of people out there looking for dogs that haven't had any shots and would even prefer that the parents haven't either. ................good for them, I get whatever wanders into my life. Immune competent. Vaccines destroy that. ............that's an irresponsible blanket statement that has no meaning. Let me explain it to ya since you don't understand. I posted a link several times to an article that used several studies showing that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases, more than one and even alter DNA. They do. I think you are the one not being responsible by not checking out the information that is out there, that I've put right under your nose. I can't force you to read it but in no way can you call that statement irresponsible once you have read about the damage vaccines do. They cause the body to attack itself. That would in no way be immune competent. What you want is in the opposite direction from where you are looking. If you haven't done your research don't flame me when you don't have a clue. It seems you are the one not being responsible. And since many vaccines are given to dogs at the same dose, regardless of size it's the smaller ones that suffer the most. ...........Well, personally, I think small dogs are a lot more like cats in reactivity to toxins. No, they may be the same size but they are not more like cats. You missed what I was saying. One size dose is given to all dogs. That means a small dog can get a dose 20 times stronger than a large dog. Do you think maybe if you took 20 doses of something it would not affect you? And then there's the issue of BYB - where way too many of the smaller dogs hail from. They start out life at a distinct disadvantage. I agree but it's not relevant. There are growing lists of breeders that breed naturally, with no vaccines, no pesticides around or on the dogs, with species appropriate foods. I would imagine that 20 years from now somebody will read this thread and be amazed at what we purposely do to our pets, surrounding them with harmful chemicals and even injecting them. ...............And I'll bet you that some of them have lost whole or partial litters to parvo. Nothing is 100% effective against parvo. Of course some lost pups to it. However a dog fed a species appropriate diet and not exposed to pesticides like Frontline and Heartguard will naturally be healthier than one that is jabbed multiple times a year, fed crap in a bag and exposed to many chemicals constantly. You can tell the difference in little ways, like larger litters, bigger pups, sparkling vitality. To get to the point you're talking about you have to be willing to sacrifice animals to disease. Only the strong live. Still don't get it do ya? The place we natural rearing people want to be is having less disease, longer lives, better quality of life. It works. You have been given many facts by me in this thread. If you haven't comprehended this by now you should give up replying. Kibble causes kidney problems and diabetes. Vaccines cause autoimmune diseases and cancer. Flea products cause cancer and seizures. We are saving our pets from the greedy pet companies that sell inferior and harmful products. Char .. buglady take out the dog before replying |
#6
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Adjuvants in vaccines
We are discovering in humans that some viral vaccines do NOT provide
lifelong immunity. Measles is one such vaccine. That said, I HAD measles (both rubella and rubeola), and have had a zero titer since titers have been regularly used, have been vaccinated twice, and never developed a positive titer. But in that time, I have cared for measles cases without becoming infected.... on the assumption, well into the 1970s, that I was immune. So? Am I or am I not immune to the disease? Who the heck knows? Core vaccine titer levels for prevention are not well established for dogs or cats, according to a former shelter vet who is very fascinated by this field and keeps up with it. I have been told the same thing by a friend who was a lab supervisor at Cornell's Baker Institute and my breed's health-genetics chairperson. Vaccines related polio cases are NOT in the people who were vaccinated with a compitent vaccine. The newly vaccinated individuals have shed the virus and infected others. Now back to rabies vaccine in dogs. You can't make blanket statements about the vaccine's lifespan until the long-term challenge is completed. Period. That's why it is being done. It is not established What the effective titer IS yet either. In city/county shelters like Miami-Dade, the government is not going to pay for titers to determine possible immunity. The animals come in infected or pick it up after arrival.... from other infected animals. They get 100-200 new animals per day, and apparently do not have the facilities for quarantine on arrival. They can't pay a couple of thousand bucks to try to treat the diseases; they euthanize. Some, like the city/county shelters in my area, administer core vaccines minus rabies if the dog is apparently healthy after several days of quarantine. But they are able to quarantine. and they get some overview about the vaccine status of strays by questionning citizens who present their pets to the shelter, and connecting their residential areas to those of animalspicked up in those areas. Since our largest county has had the capacity and shelter design to quarantine on arrival, they have not had a single state mandated "shut down" in those few years, where in the old shack of a place, they were closed to intake and adoption for two weeks an average of two times a year. Rabies is the responsibility of the rescue/shelter or adoptor as this is linked to the owner. For my vet to recognize the rabies vaccine given elsewhere, I must present the certificate of rabies vaccination from the vet that gave it. It is THE only legal proof of vaccination. Otherwise, I must re-vaccinate a year after the initial one given by my vet. Animal welfare organizations counsel adoptors on the rabies schedule and provide the certificate to be copied and presented to the vet. Some vets take the same approach for adults presented without proof of core vaccine, although they will accept the shelter's record of same. Yes, some, not all, rescues/shelters attempt to treat newly appearing parvo with the oral anti-virals, and they are having overall good results. But city/county shelters are rarely funded for this, either. Jo Wolf Martinez, Georgia |
#7
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Adjuvants in vaccines
"buglady" wrote
"Char" wrote And in case anyone wants to read someone who addresses the subject honestly, try Christie Keith: http://www.caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm Excellent discussion by a knowledgable poster. About cats, but still: http://forums.webmd.com/3/pet-health...e/forum/2412/0 Not bad and solid backing. You'll note Char is a one trick puppy. 'Feed raw and don't vaccinate'. She knows nothing else as far as I can tell. |
#8
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Adjuvants in vaccines
On 3/28/2011 7:36 PM, cshenk wrote:
"buglady" wrote "Char" wrote And in case anyone wants to read someone who addresses the subject honestly, try Christie Keith: http://www.caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm Excellent discussion by a knowledgable poster. About cats, but still: http://forums.webmd.com/3/pet-health...e/forum/2412/0 Not bad and solid backing. You'll note Char is a one trick puppy. 'Feed raw and don't vaccinate'. She knows nothing else as far as I can tell. I know you lie a lot, from the first day you posted in this group. |
#9
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Adjuvants in vaccines
On 3/28/2011 5:48 PM, Jo Wolf wrote:
Vaccines related polio cases are NOT in the people who were vaccinated with a compitent vaccine. The newly vaccinated individuals have shed the virus and infected others. There are two different polio vaccines out there. The first, pioneered by Salk, is made from viruses that have been inactivated or "killed." It protects those who are vaccinated but does not stop them from harboring live viruses in their intestines. Should they encounter polio "in the wild," they could become silent carriers and pass the pathogen on to others who have not been inoculated. If polio were to break out--as it did in the U.S. in the '50s, and as it has right now in parts of India--the Salk vaccine would not protect the population at large. This is the one you are referring to. By contrast, the second preparation, which was championed by Sabin, is made from weakened--yet not entirely docile--strains of the polio virus. It provokes a more powerful immune response. If it doesn't give the recipient polio, it not only protects those who are inoculated but also prevents them from passing on any "wild-type" infections. That is small consolation to parents like Carol Philips of Brooksville, Florida. Her son Ryan, 10, developed polio soon after receiving the Sabin vaccine. "If I had chosen the other," Philips says, "Ryan would be fine.'' |
#10
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Adjuvants in vaccines
On 3/28/2011 5:48 PM, Jo Wolf wrote:
We are discovering in humans that some viral vaccines do NOT provide lifelong immunity. Indeed, the flu shots seem to be a total loser. If you look at government statistics there was no drop in cases once the vaccine came out. In Cuba it is documented that the same thing was going on there. The flu shots were not helping at all. They switched to a Homeopathic solution and the number of people with the flu fell like a rock. Another reason not to get jabs. There is little if any proof they ever worked. And don't even bring up polio as an example. It is well known that polio was already on it's way out before the vaccines were ever given. Matter of fact they may have kept polio around longer than it might have because those very vaccines were infecting people. |
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