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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:39:46 GMT, "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~"
wrote: My mind isn't made up until I go to the bank and get the $400 out. I don't think that's a lot to pay. Do you? I've kindly asked for pro's and con's, and accept your opinion and pov's. the initial investment in purchase price is really the least of your concerns. but, no, $400 isn't much for a Chi pup. the low price is one of many warning flags indicating that this breeder is likely not as responsible as she could be. the second is that she's letting pups go way too early. the third is that she *has* pups that are available at such short notice. most responsible breeders try to insure that the pups they produce are guaranteed a home before they're even bred. while crap happens and homes fall through, i would be surprised if a responsible Chi breeder had a surplus of pups or that she'd be willing to part with them to a complete stranger for such a small amount of money. frankly, from what you've described, she reeks of back yard breeder to me. i personally refuse to reward poor breeding habits with my hard earned money. if i'm going to rely on a craps shoot, i'll get a used dog from a rescue or shelter instead. i'm likely to get a dog that is every bit as healthy, what you see is what you get size, conformation, and temperament-wise, and i'll have peace of mind knowing that i didn't support a crappy breeder. As far as the luck "I will need" if I purchase a Chi pup... thank you, Christy! Another question. How do I check up on this breeder, besides getting her vet's phone #? Pertinent questions to ask? I'm sure these will be in the two (used) Chi dog books I bought, but I am trying to get ALL the info. I can, as I did w/my Basset Hound. the breeder should be able to tell you the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs she's breeding, and the dogs behind those dogs. she should have health testing information available for you: OFA numbers for hips, elbows, patellas. CERF numbers for eyes. if heart problems or epilepsy are common in the breed, she should know. she should also know if there have been any heart related problems in the lines she's breeding from, as well as if epilepsy is present. what are the temperaments of the lines she's breeding from? are they proper for a Chihuahua? are her dogs put together well? not all dogs are show quality, but they should be conformationally sound. the purchase contract should contain provisions for worst case scenarios. does the dog revert back to her if you are forced to give it up? what is the breeder's responsibility if the dog is diagnosed with a congenital health problem? will she help pay for surgery? or, will she require that the dog be returned to her for a refund or a "replacement" pup? i feel there are plenty of wonderful dogs out there that would make good family pets, if people were willing to give them half a chance. instead, thousands upon thousands of them are killed every year in the US. i think it's unconscionable to breed more dogs just for the sake of creating more dogs. breeders should have good reason for breeding. what are this breeder's reasons for breeding? what is she trying to accomplish? is she trying to produce dogs with superb temperament? conformation? is she striving to better the breed, or is she merely trying to make money by producing pets for the pet market? i wouldn't even *begin* to consider buying a dog from a breeder without having first discussed the above issues at great length with her. at the same time, the breeder should be asking *you* a ton of questions, as well. why do you want a Chi? what qualities make you think the breed is a good fit for your lifestyle and family? what sort of references do *you* have? has she asked to talk to your vet? has she asked how this puppy will fit into your life? you see, part of being a responsible breeder consists of making sure that the pups you produce end up in good, *permanent* homes. in order to do that, the breeder must try to assess whether or not you're well matched to any of her pups. also, whether or not you're going to be able to provide a good, forever home for the dog she's bred. -- shelly http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette || http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com One can also shout/jubilate with junk--and this I did, nailing and gluing it together. -- Kurt Schwitters |
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:39:46 GMT ~*LiveLoveLaugh*~ whittled these words:
Another question. How do I check up on this breeder, besides getting her vet's phone #? Pertinent questions to ask? I'm sure these will be in the two (used) Chi dog books I bought, but I am trying to get ALL the info. I can, as I did w/my Basset Hound. A breeder who is trying to reduce the incidence of genetic disease will have certificates showing that both Sire and Dam are currently free of each of the problems of concern. Most "its my beloved pet" breeders think that if the vet says the dog is healthy then it must be OK to breed. They lack the information on two things (1) when a vet does a routine health check they are looking for problems that have shown themselves clinically e.g. limping, swelling, palable malformity. The vet is not going to do xrays to see if there is a developing problem that will cause limping/pain several years down the road. A knowledgable breeder knows what tests to get done to look for and find developing problems. (2) carrier + carrier = affected. If dog A and dog B both carry the gene for a serious health problem they can be actually unaffected but produce affected puppies. To breed with knowledge you not only have to know that the dog you are breeding is healthy you have to know enough about the pedigree to assess the risks of making particular pairings. Great book for this is "Control of Canine Genetic Disease" by G. Padgett. I am not a breeder but I own the book for the great information and insight it provides. I would not count on the books giving you good information on breeders. Every breed has its own culture. In some breeds the expectation is that good breeders test their dogs and take other steps to reduce the risk of health issues. In some breeds the culture is so strong that breeders are not allowed to advertise in club publications without providing the testing/clearance information. In some breeds it is almost purely a matter of socialization. Among small dogs the Havanese is a good example. Numerically the populations of Havanese vs Chihuahua are hugely different. The AKC lists 24,850 Chihuahua registered in 2004, (that is newly registered dogs, not total population). For the Havanese it is 2,950. And yet in raw numbers the breeders who have tested and registered health test results with OFA are far greater for the Havanese. Breed culture in the Havanese tends to be protective of health and welfare of the breed. It is MUCH harder to find a chihuahua breeder who makes any effort at all to reduce the rate of genetic disease. And as you might expect with that approach the rate of problems is quite high. I can explain bits and pieces of the differences in breed culture, but some parts are like fashion - it just is. In *general* breeders of breed created to do useful work - hunting, herding, guarding etc. are *more likely* to know about and care about genetic health issues. Toy and "just a pet" dogs are more often overlooked. But there are plenty of examples to counter those generalities. In some breeds there are sub-cultures so that some breeders assciate with like minded folks who either do or do not concern themselves with the future welfare of what they produce. Poodles seem to be an example of that. There are "successful" really crappy breeders - but large factions of breedeers see them as crappy and don't accept the "successful" label regardless of how well they do in the show ring. Personally, 9 is not particularly old for a chihuahua. I'd take another look at that rescue. You will have a much better idea of what you are getting health and temperamentwise. It is much less risky, and it gives you another bunch of years to learn more. Of course that dog may not be healthy, but any of the really serious stuff will have surfaced. A puppy you just won't know until it matures. -- Diane Blackman http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplay.com/Shop/ |
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"~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" wrote in message ... My mind isn't made up until I go to the bank and get the $400 out. I don't think that's a lot to pay. Do you? $400 is not too much to pay for a pet quality Chihuahua from a responsible breeder. However, if you are getting a puppy from an irresponsible breeder, it is several hundred dollars more than a rescue dog but you will be getting approximately the same quality. So it is very likely too much, but only because the breeder is not a responsible one (and I don't have to know much more than the 7 week age to know that, but I'll go into more detail in a moment.) Another question. How do I check up on this breeder, besides getting her vet's phone #? Pertinent questions to ask? I'm sure these will be in the two (used) Chi dog books I bought, but I am trying to get ALL the info. I can, as I did w/my Basset Hound. First off, ask her how she evaluated her dog to be breeding quality. There are two general types of answers you will likely get: 1) I decided to breed my bitch because she finished her Championship title in a relatively short time, giving me the chance to take her through some obedience classes and put a CD on her. By then, she was over two years of age and I was able to get OFA/CERF/BAER clearances on her. I had been researching her pedigree and along with my mentor's assistance I was able to find the results of health testing on her ancestry as well as other close relatives and so I felt confident that she had an excellent chance of having healthy puppies. My mentor and I went to several specialties and looked at stud dogs that complimented her, researched their lines and progeny, and we planned a careful linebreeding with an equally tested stud. The puppy that is available will be a little larger than standard but is in every way as high quality of a puppy as the one I am keeping for show, so he is available to a pet home. She is on limited registration with a spay contract. I stand behind my puppies 100% and if for any reason you need to return her, I will take her back no questions asked. If for some reason she turns out to have a genetic problem, I will work with you, not requiring her return, either financially or with another puppy from a future litter. You are now part of my dog family and I will help you with anything you need, from housetraining hints to dietary tips, to ensure you enjoy this puppy for a very long time. 2) My vet says she is healthy so I bred her on her second heat to a small male (wanted to get teacups!!) and I'm selling all the puppies to whoever wants them, no guarantees, no strings attached, you pay and take the pup and I wash my hands of it. They are from champion bloodlines and are registered CKC/APR/AKA because I hate the moneygrubbing AKC. Got cash? So... If you get the first "answer," you probably don't need to ask anything more... same with the second. But, please feel free to use those two answers as jumping off points for other questions. Also, check out Diane's website (www.dog-play.com) for further information on responsible breeders. And hopefully, you can go from there to researching other breeders and finding one that can answer the first way instead of the second. Christy |
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"Christy" wrote in message
news:kX0re.5786$tY4.1535@trnddc06... "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" wrote in message ... My mind isn't made up until I go to the bank and get the $400 out. I don't think that's a lot to pay. Do you? $400 is not too much to pay for a pet quality Chihuahua from a responsible breeder. However, if you are getting a puppy from an irresponsible breeder, it is several hundred dollars more than a rescue dog but you will be getting approximately the same quality. So it is very likely too much, but only because the breeder is not a responsible one (and I don't have to know much more than the 7 week age to know that, but I'll go into more detail in a moment.) Another question. How do I check up on this breeder, besides getting her vet's phone #? Pertinent questions to ask? I'm sure these will be in the two (used) Chi dog books I bought, but I am trying to get ALL the info. I can, as I did w/my Basset Hound. First off, ask her how she evaluated her dog to be breeding quality. There are two general types of answers you will likely get: 1) I decided to breed my bitch because she finished her Championship title in a relatively short time, giving me the chance to take her through some obedience classes and put a CD on her. By then, she was over two years of age and I was able to get OFA/CERF/BAER clearances on her. I had been researching her pedigree and along with my mentor's assistance I was able to find the results of health testing on her ancestry as well as other close relatives and so I felt confident that she had an excellent chance of having healthy puppies. My mentor and I went to several specialties and looked at stud dogs that complimented her, researched their lines and progeny, and we planned a careful linebreeding with an equally tested stud. The puppy that is available will be a little larger than standard but is in every way as high quality of a puppy as the one I am keeping for show, so he is available to a pet home. She is on limited registration with a spay contract. I stand behind my puppies 100% and if for any reason you need to return her, I will take her back no questions asked. If for some reason she turns out to have a genetic problem, I will work with you, not requiring her return, either financially or with another puppy from a future litter. You are now part of my dog family and I will help you with anything you need, from housetraining hints to dietary tips, to ensure you enjoy this puppy for a very long time. 2) My vet says she is healthy so I bred her on her second heat to a small male (wanted to get teacups!!) and I'm selling all the puppies to whoever wants them, no guarantees, no strings attached, you pay and take the pup and I wash my hands of it. They are from champion bloodlines and are registered CKC/APR/AKA because I hate the moneygrubbing AKC. Got cash? So... If you get the first "answer," you probably don't need to ask anything more... same with the second. But, please feel free to use those two answers as jumping off points for other questions. Also, check out Diane's website (www.dog-play.com) for further information on responsible breeders. And hopefully, you can go from there to researching other breeders and finding one that can answer the first way instead of the second. Thank y'all SOOOO much. Maybe I won't be getting this pup. I've got a lot more research to do, as well as inquiring more about Judy. In the mean time, my posts are current in the ad.com (local paper here) that I'm looking for a little guy of any type. Why little? Well, with a Basset Hound and four cats, we just don't have room for another bigger dog. Christy, I'm on my way to Diane's website right now. `Will let y'all know what I come up with, decide, etc. Thanks again for replies and comments. A dose of reality when choosing a puppy is a MUST. P.S. One thing that bothers me... (well more than one now, but).... she wants cash. ??? -- ·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) Laurie ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.· *~*LiveLoveLaugh*~* Aloha!!!!! "There is no remedy for love but to love more"... ~~Henry David Thoreau |
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"Christy" wrote in message
news:kX0re.5786$tY4.1535@trnddc06... "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" wrote in message ... My mind isn't made up until I go to the bank and get the $400 out. I don't think that's a lot to pay. Do you? $400 is not too much to pay for a pet quality Chihuahua from a responsible breeder. However, if you are getting a puppy from an irresponsible breeder, it is several hundred dollars more than a rescue dog but you will be getting approximately the same quality. So it is very likely too much, but only because the breeder is not a responsible one (and I don't have to know much more than the 7 week age to know that, but I'll go into more detail in a moment.) Another question. How do I check up on this breeder, besides getting her vet's phone #? Pertinent questions to ask? I'm sure these will be in the two (used) Chi dog books I bought, but I am trying to get ALL the info. I can, as I did w/my Basset Hound. First off, ask her how she evaluated her dog to be breeding quality. There are two general types of answers you will likely get: 1) I decided to breed my bitch because she finished her Championship title in a relatively short time, giving me the chance to take her through some obedience classes and put a CD on her. By then, she was over two years of age and I was able to get OFA/CERF/BAER clearances on her. I had been researching her pedigree and along with my mentor's assistance I was able to find the results of health testing on her ancestry as well as other close relatives and so I felt confident that she had an excellent chance of having healthy puppies. My mentor and I went to several specialties and looked at stud dogs that complimented her, researched their lines and progeny, and we planned a careful linebreeding with an equally tested stud. The puppy that is available will be a little larger than standard but is in every way as high quality of a puppy as the one I am keeping for show, so he is available to a pet home. She is on limited registration with a spay contract. I stand behind my puppies 100% and if for any reason you need to return her, I will take her back no questions asked. If for some reason she turns out to have a genetic problem, I will work with you, not requiring her return, either financially or with another puppy from a future litter. You are now part of my dog family and I will help you with anything you need, from housetraining hints to dietary tips, to ensure you enjoy this puppy for a very long time. 2) My vet says she is healthy so I bred her on her second heat to a small male (wanted to get teacups!!) and I'm selling all the puppies to whoever wants them, no guarantees, no strings attached, you pay and take the pup and I wash my hands of it. They are from champion bloodlines and are registered CKC/APR/AKA because I hate the moneygrubbing AKC. Got cash? So... If you get the first "answer," you probably don't need to ask anything more... same with the second. But, please feel free to use those two answers as jumping off points for other questions. Also, check out Diane's website (www.dog-play.com) for further information on responsible breeders. And hopefully, you can go from there to researching other breeders and finding one that can answer the first way instead of the second. P.S. I already have this book-marked!! I've read everything but Code of Ethics. See? I haven't done all of my homework yet. Also, Judy (breeder) has a couple who wants a second puppy (they got one from her ago two years ago), and another couple who are buying one for their 16 y.o. daughter. So, she does sound like she had buyers lined up. My main goal is the HEALTH of this pup. My heart would break in two if I bought a lemon. Returning it could be a choice, but I don't know if I could do it. OTOH, I/we can't afford to plunk down $5,000.00 on vet bills. (Who can these days?) More thoughts later. Thanks again, ladies. -- ·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) Laurie ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.· *~*LiveLoveLaugh*~* Aloha!!!!! "There is no remedy for love but to love more"... ~~Henry David Thoreau |
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:18:39 GMT, "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~"
wrote: P.S. One thing that bothers me... (well more than one now, but).... she wants cash. ??? i would run, not walk, away from this breeder. there is nothing you've said that makes me think she could possibly be anything approaching responsible. wanting cash is IMO the final nail in the coffin. -- shelly http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette || http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com The important thing is not to stop questioning. -- Albert Einstein |
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In article ,
shelly wrote: i would run, not walk, away from this breeder. there is nothing you've said that makes me think she could possibly be anything approaching responsible. wanting cash is IMO the final nail in the coffin. In that context, probably. I've dealt with cash-only dog situations, but they were ones in which 1) I'd been in touch with the seller for months, 2) I knew people who knew the seller and spoke well of him, and 3) the guy was very well- known within my segment of the dog community. I'm generally not going to fault people who want to do business on a cash- only basis (it's pretty common here in Green Acres), but in the context of this particular chihuahua transaction it certainly doesn't help one feel more confident about the breeder. BTW, to the original poster: most of the people I've met who do rescue are terrific and committed and knowledgeable, but a couple have been total meatheads. Rescue activity goes in the plus column but it's not an automatic "this is good" signal. -- Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - 43% of all private-sector jobs created in the US from 2001 to April 2005 are housing-related |
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"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
... In article , shelly wrote: i would run, not walk, away from this breeder. there is nothing you've said that makes me think she could possibly be anything approaching responsible. wanting cash is IMO the final nail in the coffin. In that context, probably. I've dealt with cash-only dog situations, but they were ones in which 1) I'd been in touch with the seller for months, 2) I knew people who knew the seller and spoke well of him, and 3) the guy was very well- known within my segment of the dog community. I'm generally not going to fault people who want to do business on a cash- only basis (it's pretty common here in Green Acres), but in the context of this particular chihuahua transaction it certainly doesn't help one feel more confident about the breeder. BTW, to the original poster: most of the people I've met who do rescue are terrific and committed and knowledgeable, but a couple have been total meatheads. Rescue activity goes in the plus column but it's not an automatic "this is good" signal. Well, I've filled out three different applications. One of which I completely re-typed for the gal because she used Word with lines for the answers... meaning.... Name: ______________________________________________ Address: __________ Phone and Email: ____________ Why do you want to adopt?: ___ IOW, not enough room to type diddly!! So, I went in and created a table for her five pager. Hey, it took about an hour... but it was for a much needed cause. very quiet right now in my mind b/c I'm disappointed about what I need to know WAY more about but thankful to y'all! -- ·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) Laurie ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.· *~*LiveLoveLaugh*~* Aloha!!!!! "There is no remedy for love but to love more"... ~~Henry David Thoreau |
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"shelly" wrote in message
... On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:39:46 GMT, "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" wrote: My mind isn't made up until I go to the bank and get the $400 out. I don't think that's a lot to pay. Do you? I've kindly asked for pro's and con's, and accept your opinion and pov's. the initial investment in purchase price is really the least of your concerns. but, no, $400 isn't much for a Chi pup. the low price is one of many warning flags indicating that this breeder is likely not as responsible as she could be. the second is that she's letting pups go way too early. the third is that she *has* pups that are available at such short notice. most responsible breeders try to insure that the pups they produce are guaranteed a home before they're even bred. while crap happens and homes fall through, i would be surprised if a responsible Chi breeder had a surplus of pups or that she'd be willing to part with them to a complete stranger for such a small amount of money. We're no longer complete strangers. I've called her at least 10 times and we've talked a looooong time about puppies, dogs, cats, fibromyalgia, social security, vets, dog insurance, breeder clubs, organizations, rescue, etc. frankly, from what you've described, she reeks of back yard breeder to me. i personally refuse to reward poor breeding habits with my hard earned money. if i'm going to rely on a craps shoot, i'll get a used dog from a rescue or shelter instead. i'm likely to get a dog that is every bit as healthy, what you see is what you get size, conformation, and temperament-wise, and i'll have peace of mind knowing that i didn't support a crappy breeder. She's not a crappy breeder. I found a Chi club in my area, and she is known in there as a local Chi breeder for central & upstate NY. As far as the luck "I will need" if I purchase a Chi pup... thank you, Christy! Another question. How do I check up on this breeder, besides getting her vet's phone #? Pertinent questions to ask? I'm sure these will be in the two (used) Chi dog books I bought, but I am trying to get ALL the info. I can, as I did w/my Basset Hound. the breeder should be able to tell you the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs she's breeding, and the dogs behind those dogs. she should have health testing information available for you: OFA numbers for hips, elbows, patellas. CERF numbers for eyes. if heart problems or epilepsy are common in the breed, she should know. she should also know if there have been any heart related problems in the lines she's breeding from, as well as if epilepsy is present. what are the temperaments of the lines she's breeding from? are they proper for a Chihuahua? are her dogs put together well? not all dogs are show quality, but they should be conformationally sound. This was allll discussed, and confirmed when I talked w/her vet. the purchase contract should contain provisions for worst case scenarios. does the dog revert back to her if you are forced to give it up? what is the breeder's responsibility if the dog is diagnosed with a congenital health problem? will she help pay for surgery? or, will she require that the dog be returned to her for a refund or a "replacement" pup? Fourteen day return policy if my vet finds the dog to have problems. i feel there are plenty of wonderful dogs out there that would make good family pets, if people were willing to give them half a chance. I would LOVE to help a dog out. Unfortunately my home has 4 cats that are VERY comfortable in this environment. Training a pup is hard work and it takes a dedicated person to do it. I don't work and can be here ALL of the time for the pup. *RE*-training 4 cats to accept a dog would be a totally different thing. instead, thousands upon thousands of them are killed every year in the US. i think it's unconscionable to breed more dogs just for the sake of creating more dogs. breeders should have good reason for breeding. what are this breeder's reasons for breeding? what is she trying to accomplish? is she trying to produce dogs with superb temperament? conformation? is she striving to better the breed, or is she merely trying to make money by producing pets for the pet market? Her grandmother did it. She grew up with Chi's. She adores them. Her mother and two brothers have them, etc., etc. I do not know if she is breeding to 'better the breed'. i wouldn't even *begin* to consider buying a dog from a breeder without having first discussed the above issues at great length with her. at the same time, the breeder should be asking *you* a ton of questions, as well. why do you want a Chi? what qualities make you think the breed is a good fit for your lifestyle and family? what sort of references do *you* have? has she asked to talk to your vet? has she asked how this puppy will fit into your life? I wanted a small pup. A small breed. Mixed was fine too. In my orig. post, it states how I came across Judy. Judy asked for my vet's number and two references. I gave her my pet sitter's number (Grey Hound rescue placer and owner), and my best friend's number. She asked me if I was going to insure the dog. Yep!! Happy (my Basset) is insured, and has been since he was a pup. I gave her the 800# and Happy's I.D. number. you see, part of being a responsible breeder consists of making sure that the pups you produce end up in good, *permanent* homes. in order to do that, the breeder must try to assess whether or not you're well matched to any of her pups. also, whether or not you're going to be able to provide a good, forever home for the dog she's bred. When I filled out several adoption applications, one gal posted in the ad.com that she has a *PERFECT* person/home looking for a small breed. That person would be me. I will dedicate my heart, soul and money to keep this pup happy, and I also know this is a 10 to even 20 year committment. I also cannot have kids. I'm 42, and I dream of babies (real babies) alllll of the time. This is what got me started on thinking of a kitten or a puppy. The more I thought, researched, talked, and dreamt about it, the more I realized I wanted a pup. I have a *premium* vet. He lives in my community and the clinic is right outside of our community. My GYN lives in this community as well as my general practitioner. It's got two golf courses, club houses, a baseball field, a pool, a Jacuzzi (two), miles of walking trails (that are even blown clear of snow in the winter so that walkers/dog walkers can exercise. The quality of life for the pup I choose will be top notch. I am proud of where I live (I just hate that it's in upstate NY and not Florida... where I'm from). Have a good day, Shelly!! Oh, and my kitchen and two entrances. Both are gated off when we leave the house. Happy's Orvis bed is put in there (hardwood floors) w/3 big-doggie milk bones and water. AND... the thing about being a Basset owner is you have to realize if you don't want sloppy water/drool allllllllllllllll over after he drinks, you have to stop what you're doing when you hear him slurp, slurp, slurp in the kitchen. He is so used to this that he stands over his doggie mat and waits for his mouth to be dried off with his towel. -- ·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) Laurie ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.· *~*LiveLoveLaugh*~* Aloha!!!!! "There is no remedy for love but to love more"... ~~Henry David Thoreau -- shelly http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette || http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com One can also shout/jubilate with junk--and this I did, nailing and gluing it together. -- Kurt Schwitters |
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