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Carbs cause arthritis



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 28th 09, 03:40 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
chardonnay9
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Posts: 1,054
Default Carbs cause arthritis

And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles? Grains, and grains are
carbs.

A wheat gluten mechanism has been studied in rheumatoid arthritis
patients. Careful observation revealed that wheat ingestion is followed
within hours by increased joint swelling and pain. Little and his
colleagues studied the mechanism, as it developed sequentially following
gluten ingestion. Parke et al concurred with this explanation of the
gut-arthritis link in their report of three patients with celiac disease
and rheumatoid arthritis. The mechanism they postulated involves several
stages:

The digestive tract must be permeable to antigenic proteins or peptide
fragments, derived from digested food. The food antigens appear in the
blood stream and are bound by a specific antibody (probably of IgA or
IgG, not IgE class), forming an antigen-antibody complex, a circulating
immune complex (CIC).

The antigen-antibody complexes activate the rest of the immune response,
beginning with the release of mediators - serotonin is released from the
blood platelets. Serotonin release causes "symptoms" as it circulates in
the blood stream and enhances the deposition of CICs in joint tissues.

Once in the joint, the immune complexes activate complement, which in
turn damages cells and activates inflammation. Inflammation causes pain,
swelling, stiffness, and loss of mobility.
http://www.nutramed.com/arthritis/arthritisfa.htm
  #2  
Old May 28th 09, 11:25 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Melinda Shore
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Posts: 7,732
Default Carbs cause arthritis

In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles?


So what's the percentage of kibbles that have a grain as a
first ingredient? And why do I bother asking? You haven't
been able to answer a question yet, and I know you plucked
"most" out of the air.

Anyway, "carbs cause arthritis" is every bit as well
supported by the evidence as is the assertion that "the
earth is getting colder." I continue to believe that you're
paid by the dog food industry to make the raw food movement
look like buffoons.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #3  
Old May 28th 09, 12:31 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
chardonnay9
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,054
Default Carbs cause arthritis

Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles?


So what's the percentage of kibbles that have a grain as a
first ingredient?


If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I just
dunno about you. Many times the carbs are broken up into different
ingredients so that they appear to be a small part of the ingredients
when they indeed are a major part. Is this really news to you? It's been
common knowledge for a long time now.


And why do I bother asking?

That is a very good question. Get a life!


You haven't
been able to answer a question yet, and I know you plucked
"most" out of the air.

Anyway, "carbs cause arthritis" is every bit as well
supported by the evidence as is the assertion that "the
earth is getting colder." I continue to believe that you're
paid by the dog food industry to make the raw food movement
look like buffoons.


You manage to look like a buffoon just about any time you post Melinda.
I'm so sorry you don't keep up with current information but don't blame
me for your lack of knowledge.

"Support for an intestinal origin of antigens comes from studies of
patients whose joint symptoms have improved on the avoidance of certain
foods antigens, and become worse on consuming them. These have included
patients with both intermittent symptoms, palindromic rheumatism and
more chronic disease."
  #4  
Old May 28th 09, 12:44 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,732
Default Carbs cause arthritis

In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I just
dunno about you.


I'm well aware of ingredient splitting. But the only feeds
I can think of in which grains are a primary ingredient are
severals of the Dad's-branded feeds and Ol' Roy, while off
the top of my head I can think of dozens in which grains are
not the primary ingredient. Granted that's not a random
sample, but at least it's a sample and it's more than you've
offered.

The word "most" has a specific meaning. Presumably you used
it for a reason. My guess is that the reason is that you
pulled it out of your nether orifice to advance your
argument, irrespective of whether or not's actually true.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #5  
Old May 28th 09, 01:14 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
FurPaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,469
Default Carbs cause arthritis



chardonnay9 wrote:
And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles? Grains, and grains are
carbs.

A wheat gluten mechanism has been studied in rheumatoid arthritis
patients. Careful observation revealed that wheat ingestion is followed
within hours by increased joint swelling and pain. Little and his
colleagues studied the mechanism, as it developed sequentially following
gluten ingestion. Parke et al concurred with this explanation of the
gut-arthritis link in their report of three patients with celiac disease
and rheumatoid arthritis. The mechanism they postulated involves several
stages:

The digestive tract must be permeable to antigenic proteins or peptide
fragments, derived from digested food. The food antigens appear in the
blood stream and are bound by a specific antibody (probably of IgA or
IgG, not IgE class), forming an antigen-antibody complex, a circulating
immune complex (CIC).

The antigen-antibody complexes activate the rest of the immune response,
beginning with the release of mediators - serotonin is released from the
blood platelets. Serotonin release causes "symptoms" as it circulates in
the blood stream and enhances the deposition of CICs in joint tissues.

Once in the joint, the immune complexes activate complement, which in
turn damages cells and activates inflammation. Inflammation causes pain,
swelling, stiffness, and loss of mobility.
http://www.nutramed.com/arthritis/arthritisfa.htm


Hoo boy, Chard, this post fails on so many levels! Let's just
start with the subject line: "Carbs cause arthritis."

1. "Carbs" are not the same as wheat gluten; the term "carbs"
encompasses far more than wheat products, so using it this way is
a gross over-generalization.

2. "cause" - presumes cause and effect has been demonstrated.
It has not. Even if ingesting wheat gluten participated in
inflammatory arthritis, it has not been demonstrated to be The
Cause of it. It's far more complex than this.

3. "arthritis" Which type of arthritis? There are many, and
the article deals only with rheumatoid arthritis. Your use of
the term in this way suggests that carbs cause any or all forms
of arthritis.

So your subject line is guilty of inaccuracy and gross
over-generalization.

Let's look at your first line. "And what is the main ingredient
in most kibbles? Grains, and grains are carbs."

1. You speak of "grains," but the article speaks specifically of
wheat gluten, from only one type of grain. It does not mention
rice, barley, corn, millet, or any of the other grains that may
be used in kibble.

2. Grains contain carbohydrates; it's not correct to say that
they "are" carbohydrates, because they contain so much more.

Your assertion contains distortions and misinformation, and it
extrapolates way beyond anything contained in the article you
quote from.

Between your subject and first line, your "logic" goes something
like this:
Carbs cause arthritis
Grains are carbs
Kibble contains grains
Therefore kibble causes arthritis.

Finally, that article.

First, although it has the appearance of science, it doesn't
actually provide the citations it seems to give. Could you
provide me with the complete citations of the articles supposedly
authored by Little and Parke?

Second, it appears on a web site that is selling products alleged
to relieve arthritis symptoms. Do you really think it's an
unbiased report?

Third, can you explain the differences between IgA, IgG, and IgE?
And why is the release of serotonin by platelets relevant to
the author's thesis that wheat gluten triggers an inflammatory
response in joints? What "symptoms" does it "cause?"

Thank you.

FurPaw

--
Don't believe everything that you think.

To reply, unleash the dog.
  #6  
Old May 28th 09, 02:46 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
chardonnay9
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,054
Default Carbs cause arthritis

Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I just
dunno about you.


I'm well aware of ingredient splitting.


Coulda fooled me!


But the only feeds
I can think of in which grains are a primary ingredient are
severals of the Dad's-branded feeds and Ol' Roy, while off
the top of my head I can think of dozens in which grains are
not the primary ingredient.


What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis and
that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble
has carbs. All you want to do is fight over how much is in there instead
of concentrating on the real problem.

But that is typical Melinda.
  #7  
Old May 28th 09, 02:50 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,732
Default Carbs cause arthritis

In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis and
that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble
has carbs.


I'm unclear on why you think that eliminating carbs from a
dog's diet is healthy. It's not - carbohydrates are a
necessary nutrient. Even in dogs they're a primary
short-term energy source, and they're a primary energy
source for the brain.

And be that as it may, you still haven't provided any
supporting evidence for your assertion that "carbs cause
arthritis." Furpaw deserves kudos for having the patience
to detail the myriad problems with your original post, and
I'd love to see you address some of the issues she's raised.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #8  
Old May 28th 09, 04:27 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
chardonnay9
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,054
Default Carbs cause arthritis

Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis and
that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble
has carbs.


I'm unclear on why you think that eliminating carbs from a
dog's diet is healthy. It's not - carbohydrates are a
necessary nutrient.


There are no statistics to back that up. Why? Because it's not true.

There is no requirement for carbs in dogs.

Why do you keep making stuff up?
  #9  
Old May 28th 09, 04:42 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Tara Green
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Posts: 711
Default Carbs cause arthritis

chardonnay9 wrote:
Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I
just dunno about you.


I'm well aware of ingredient splitting.


Coulda fooled me!


But the only feeds
I can think of in which grains are a primary ingredient are
severals of the Dad's-branded feeds and Ol' Roy, while off
the top of my head I can think of dozens in which grains are
not the primary ingredient.


What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis


Funny, that's not what you titled the thread.

And, in the opposite direction, that's not
what the research you yourself posted showed.

Lazy, irresponsible posting, yet again.

and
that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble
has carbs.


You just wrote the nutritional equivalent of
"and that a Moon circles most planets, and
that all planets are low on oxygen"

Um, yeah, ok. Both statements are about
planets (food), the rest is a string of non
sequitors. You keep on confusing carbs with
grains. They're not the same thing. Those
words are not interchangeable.

All you want to do is fight over how much is in there instead
of concentrating on the real problem.


Um, you yourself, in the title of the thread
AND in the only original parts of the post
that you wrote misrepresent the "real
problem" to begin with. Before any discussion
can even take place, those aspects (i.e. your
basic premise) have to be corrected.

But that is typical of Chard.

Hey Chard, you forgot to answer my question:
since you are such a raw food fanatic,
willing to blame non-raw foods for every
ailment under the sun, how long have YOU been
eating raw? If you're that hell bent on
beating up other people for their choices on
what they're feeding their dogs, I would
think that you would *never* put unhealthy,
cooked foods into your own digestive system.

So.....I ask again....how long have you been
eating raw yourself?

If its not something you're willing to do
yourself, then I have to assume you don't
really believe in it *that* much. Its really
easy to spout off about something you won't
ever have to stick to yourself.

Even some raw foodists have a description
folks like you. Zealous dietary bigot. But
since I doubt you're even a raw foordist when
it comes to your *own* eating habits, I'm
going to add "hypocrite" to that descriptor.
  #10  
Old May 28th 09, 04:44 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Tara Green
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 711
Default Carbs cause arthritis

chardonnay9 wrote:
Melinda Shore wrote:
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis
and that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all
kibble has carbs.


I'm unclear on why you think that eliminating carbs from a
dog's diet is healthy. It's not - carbohydrates are a
necessary nutrient.


There are no statistics to back that up. Why? Because it's not true.

There is no requirement for carbs in dogs.

Why do you keep making stuff up?


You cut out the part where she challenged you
to counter even ONE of the issues that Furpaw
raised.

In terms of "why do you keep making stuff
up", let's start with "carbs cause
arthritis", since what you posted didn't even
support that assertion.
 




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