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#21
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Charlie Wilkes wrote: On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy wrote: Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And then she continued grooming it. "You're not going to behave that way to ME when I'm trying to GROOM you!!!" That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It makes the problem worse. Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered, and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog, systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor. That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart. This video, fans, is the best one I know of to start getting that point across in puppyhood. http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing. And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance, I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown, because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug of war, and I get my face really close to his (this causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear with the other hand, and really getting into it (and he's loving it, of course...) and then, suddently, I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game to commence again. this is michael reporting live... http://dogtv.com If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief of toys. Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want. And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do! As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled. hCharlie |
#22
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On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote: Charlie Wilkes wrote: On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy wrote: Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And then she continued grooming it. "You're not going to behave that way to ME when I'm trying to GROOM you!!!" That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It makes the problem worse. Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered, and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog, systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor. Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important. My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup, to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse through repeated confrontations. "People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once the pattern has been installed." Charlie That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart. This video, fans, is the best one I know of to start getting that point across in puppyhood. http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing. And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance, I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown, because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug of war, and I get my face really close to his (this causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear with the other hand, and really getting into it (and he's loving it, of course...) and then, suddently, I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game to commence again. this is michael reporting live... http://dogtv.com If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief of toys. Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want. And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do! As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled. hCharlie |
#23
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On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote: Charlie Wilkes wrote: On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy wrote: Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And then she continued grooming it. "You're not going to behave that way to ME when I'm trying to GROOM you!!!" That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It makes the problem worse. Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered, and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog, systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor. Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important. My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup, to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse through repeated confrontations. "People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once the pattern has been installed." Charlie That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart. This video, fans, is the best one I know of to start getting that point across in puppyhood. http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing. And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance, I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown, because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug of war, and I get my face really close to his (this causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear with the other hand, and really getting into it (and he's loving it, of course...) and then, suddently, I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game to commence again. this is michael reporting live... http://dogtv.com If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief of toys. Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want. And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do! As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled. hCharlie |
#24
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On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote: Charlie Wilkes wrote: On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy wrote: Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And then she continued grooming it. "You're not going to behave that way to ME when I'm trying to GROOM you!!!" That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It makes the problem worse. Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered, and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog, systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor. Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important. My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup, to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse through repeated confrontations. "People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once the pattern has been installed." Charlie That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart. This video, fans, is the best one I know of to start getting that point across in puppyhood. http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing. And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance, I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown, because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug of war, and I get my face really close to his (this causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear with the other hand, and really getting into it (and he's loving it, of course...) and then, suddently, I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game to commence again. this is michael reporting live... http://dogtv.com If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief of toys. Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want. And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do! As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled. hCharlie |
#25
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On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote: Charlie Wilkes wrote: On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy wrote: Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And then she continued grooming it. "You're not going to behave that way to ME when I'm trying to GROOM you!!!" That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It makes the problem worse. Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered, and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog, systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor. Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important. My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup, to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse through repeated confrontations. "People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once the pattern has been installed." Charlie That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart. This video, fans, is the best one I know of to start getting that point across in puppyhood. http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing. And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance, I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown, because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug of war, and I get my face really close to his (this causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear with the other hand, and really getting into it (and he's loving it, of course...) and then, suddently, I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game to commence again. this is michael reporting live... http://dogtv.com If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief of toys. Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want. And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do! As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled. hCharlie |
#26
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Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly- whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a calm, matter of fact way. If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true. Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone bitten. |
#27
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Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly- whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a calm, matter of fact way. If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true. Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone bitten. |
#28
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Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly- whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a calm, matter of fact way. If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true. Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone bitten. |
#29
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Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly- whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a calm, matter of fact way. If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true. Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone bitten. |
#30
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Handsome Jack Morrison wrote: On 3 Feb 2004 15:32:21 GMT, KWBrown In my experience, there is no difference between what some folks call "Springer Rage," "rage," "Jekyll & Hyde Syndrome," etc., and what others (mostly credentialed behaviorists) call idiopathic aggression. It's all the same ILLNESS. But whatever "it" is, it can't be cured, BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA!!! it can't be modified, BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! it can't be treated, BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAHAHAAA!!!! it's not caused by any kind of mishandling or abuse, BWAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! Then why didn't Teena just threaten Kate when Kate was washing the dishes instead of when Kate had Teena on the ground and was grooming and manhandling Teena and Scolding Teena for taking offense? Answer that You dumb****ing ignoramous? Thanks for your input, Jerkoff You ever been on TV Jerkoff? Why don't you get into a debate over Politics? Because you're an idiot and you're not smart enough to get on TV... BWHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAA!!! this is m-ichael reportin-g live.. http:__dogtv.com |
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