Rant about national breed clubs

In doing some window shopping via national breed clubs I'm finding more and
more of them are demanding you send money to them in order to find out who
their member breeders are. IMO that's stepping way over the line and I
think its unethical.

I can be heard to say at least once a year that there's a huge problem in
the accessibility of ethical breeders. They aren't growing on trees and
they don't advertise. For all the many individuals and families who set out
to purchase a companion animal each year these ethical breeders remain
largely hidden or just flat-out unheard of.

Educated dog people are forever telling people they should find an ethical
breeder. There are people on these lists whose favorite comeback to any
puppy-related question is "what does your breeder have to say?"

I understand the point of view of those pushing ethical breedres, breed
clubs, breed events, etc. but I also understand the Doe family's desire to
obtain a dog and be able to find information on that process, to include
where and from whom, without too much hassle.

How exactly does holding breeder member names hostage for cash help anyone
but the club pad its pockets? It doesn't put names or websites out there
for people to contrast & compare, get contact info, have the option to do
research, etc. It doesn't promote public education or better accessibility
to "quality" dogs. Its nothing more than elitist and frankly it pisses me
off.

I think all of you who love to get snarky with people about who they bought
their pet from should begin thinking about a possible accessibility issue on
the part of gaining good information and contacts and that not all of us in
this world are within decent driving distance to dog shows and specialties
where we can meet breeders of breeds we like.

The internet may not be considered the best research tool for dog shopping
but I, for one at least, think its great and that more breeders should
create informational websites even if they choose not to advertise litters.

I know my rant started off, and is about this breeder name hostage situation
but some people's attitudes towards others on these ngs really should take
this kind of crap into account. As for the "hostage" reference that's what
I consider this *unless* its the breeders choosing to have the club operate
in this way. If that's the case then IMO they're a bunch of elitist,
uncaring & lazy people who don't want their names out there because they
might have to be bothered by people who aren't deadly serious about throwing
down cash yet.

--
Tara

Tee wrote:

snip
I know my rant started off, and is about this breeder name hostage situation
but some people's attitudes towards others on these ngs really should take
this kind of crap into account. As for the "hostage" reference that's what
I consider this *unless* its the breeders choosing to have the club operate
in this way. If that's the case then IMO they're a bunch of elitist,
uncaring & lazy people who don't want their names out there because they
might have to be bothered by people who aren't deadly serious about throwing
down cash yet.

Ethical breeders have day jobs because if you're doing it right, there's
pretty much no way to make a living off of breeding dogs. And frankly,
when you've already got a waiting list and your puppies are spoken for
by people you know and trust, having met them at various breed events,
there's very little incentive to spoon feed information to casual window
shoppers.

Kathleen

"Kathleen" wrote in message
...
Tee wrote:

snip
I know my rant started off, and is about this breeder name hostage
situation but some people's attitudes towards others on these ngs really
should take this kind of crap into account. As for the "hostage"
reference that's what I consider this *unless* its the breeders choosing
to have the club operate in this way. If that's the case then IMO
they're a bunch of elitist, uncaring & lazy people who don't want their
names out there because they might have to be bothered by people who
aren't deadly serious about throwing down cash yet.

Ethical breeders have day jobs because if you're doing it right, there's
pretty much no way to make a living off of breeding dogs. And frankly,
when you've already got a waiting list and your puppies are spoken for by
people you know and trust, having met them at various breed events,
there's very little incentive to spoon feed information to casual window
shoppers.

Wow.


--
Tara

"Kathleen" wrote in message
...

Ethical breeders have day jobs because if you're doing it right, there's
pretty much no way to make a living off of breeding dogs.

And so do most of the puppy buying public. Their time is just as precious
to them.

And frankly, when you've already got a waiting list and your puppies are
spoken for by people you know and trust, having met them at various breed
events,

You just proved yet another of my points. People on these ngs need to stop
pointing others to ethical breeders because most of them are like you,
they're too busy and already have a waiting list from people who went to dog
shows or were recommended by other breeders so they have no time or patience
for extraneous people. I'm guessing you're too busy to give referrals to
other ethical breeders in this case.

there's very little incentive to spoon feed information to casual window
shoppers.

That's the most insulting thing I've read in a long time. Damn good thing
those in rescue, who also have day jobs and who work at their *hobby* 20-40
hours a week on top of that, don't take that line of reasoning. I thought,
if you were breeding dogs to better the breed, that part of that goes to
education. Evidently I was wrong. Either that or the *assumption* that
people are "casual windows shoppers" (ie not willing to immediately throw
down cash or must not be serious if they didn't come to a show) means
they're worthless to you?

This window shopper part is also an issue. A great *many* websites advise
puppy buyers to shop around, to compare & contrast, to look at different
breeders & litters and not just pick a dog out of the first litter they
find. Now why are these club websites suggesting that when it seems to be a
problem for the breeder? I know more breeders than I care to count who
become offended and take that 'my time is precious' stance with people who
consider other breeders as well.


--
Tara

In article ,
Kathleen wrote:
Ethical breeders have day jobs because if you're doing it right, there's
pretty much no way to make a living off of breeding dogs. And frankly,
when you've already got a waiting list and your puppies are spoken for
by people you know and trust, having met them at various breed events,
there's very little incentive to spoon feed information to casual window
shoppers.

I know a number of people who regard "spoon feeding
information to casual window shoppers" as not just an
obligation, but an imperative.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

It is worth pointing out that the difference between the free market and
cronyism is not subtle, and getting less subtle by the minute -- John Holbo

Tee wrote:
In doing some window shopping via national breed clubs I'm finding more and
more of them are demanding you send money to them in order to find out who
their member breeders are. IMO that's stepping way over the line and I
think its unethical.

Okay. First. There's no such thing as Member Breeders. that sort of
implies that only breeders are allowed to belong to a National Breed
club. Or that there's a formal organization within each breed club of
Member Breeders, designated as such. Or that all breeders must join the
National Breed club. People join breed clubs. Some breed, some do not.
Some do conformation, some do not. Some are very good breeders, some are
not. One reason you may be having trouble getting a list is because,
frankly, there's no guarantee that breeders who happen to be National
Breed club members are ethical. Getting a list of club members, paid for
or not, is not a great shortcut to an ethical breeder.

I can be heard to say at least once a year that there's a huge problem in
the accessibility of ethical breeders. They aren't growing on trees and
they don't advertise. For all the many individuals and families who set out
to purchase a companion animal each year these ethical breeders remain
largely hidden or just flat-out unheard of.

Yep. That's sort of the way things are. People will either make the
effort that buying a companion of the next 10 years takes, or they
won't. Most won't. Most families want instant access to perfection and
are not willing to make any effort at all to try to find quality. And
for them yes, ethical breeders remain unheard of. But for those who are
smart enough to realize that it takes some effort and research to get a
quality animal, the breeders are there. Sort of natural selection, that.


I understand the point of view of those pushing ethical breedres, breed
clubs, breed events, etc. but I also understand the Doe family's desire to
obtain a dog and be able to find information on that process, to include
where and from whom, without too much hassle.

And I understand the breeder's view that if somebody isn't willing to
put a bit of research into it, then I don't care about selling to them.

How exactly does holding breeder member names hostage for cash help anyone
but the club pad its pockets? It doesn't put names or websites out there
for people to contrast & compare, get contact info, have the option to do
research, etc. It doesn't promote public education or better accessibility
to "quality" dogs. Its nothing more than elitist and frankly it pisses me
off.

Obviously. But I think you are misunderstanding some things. I think
that what breed clubs don't release publicly without membership is a
full membership list. However, most breed club members are quite willing
to recommend, or not, individual breeders. All it takes is the
prospective owner contacting the breeder referral on the AKC website,
listed with each breed's standard. If you are not looking at an AKC
breed I can't help you, but this info is NOT hard to find, all it
entails is actually looking up the standard of the breed you wish to
buy, then clicking on a button and using that information to drop an
email or a phone call.

Also, it's well worth noting that not all ethical breeders belong to a
National breed club for one reason or another.

I think all of you who love to get snarky with people about who they bought
their pet from should begin thinking about a possible accessibility issue on
the part of gaining good information and contacts and that not all of us in
this world are within decent driving distance to dog shows and specialties
where we can meet breeders of breeds we like.

Sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for you. If you aren't willing
to travel some distance to see and learn about the breed you wish to
buy, then I as a breeder wouldn't necessarily want to sell to you. It
indicates a certain lack of seriousness about the purchase.

I know my rant started off, and is about this breeder name hostage situation
but some people's attitudes towards others on these ngs really should take
this kind of crap into account. As for the "hostage" reference that's what
I consider this *unless* its the breeders choosing to have the club operate
in this way. If that's the case then IMO they're a bunch of elitist,
uncaring & lazy people who don't want their names out there because they
might have to be bothered by people who aren't deadly serious about throwing
down cash yet.

Bullshit. That goes far beyond a rant and into potential libel. I know
quite a few excellent breeders and not a single one meets your description.

If you want a certain breed, post here about the breed you're looking
for and ask people for pros and cons, then ask people to contact you
privately with good breeder names. How hard is that?????

And yes. I'll agree. There's just no shortcut to a good dog. There's no
magic formula that will help you go from Ms Clueless to Owner of Superb
Specimen. Generally what it takes is persistance, perseverence, and the
willingness to go out of your way. It takes study, it takes being
willing to wait, it takes developing a relationship with someone you
trust well ahead of getting a puppy from them. Not willing to do that?
Too bad, so sad, no puppy for you.

And honestly, after reading your post, if I was a breeder (and I very
occasionally am) you'd go down on my "nope, don't sell to her" list.
When I bred Viva I had a waiting list of 20 people for what ended up
being 3 puppies, two to be placed. Why would I want to sell to someone
who is so hostile, who doesn't seem to appreciate my work, who thinks
I'm elitist and lazy? Sorry, I think not.

Tee wrote:

"Kathleen" wrote in message


And frankly, when you've already got a waiting list and your puppies are
spoken for by people you know and trust, having met them at various breed
events,


You just proved yet another of my points. People on these ngs need to stop
pointing others to ethical breeders because most of them are like you,
they're too busy and already have a waiting list from people who went to dog
shows or were recommended by other breeders so they have no time or patience
for extraneous people. I'm guessing you're too busy to give referrals to
other ethical breeders in this case.

Not speaking for Kathleen, but I absolutely spoon feed information to
people. I spend an incredible amount of time in email and on the phone,
talking to people who want a puppy about my breed, the good points and
bad points, etc. I also spend time getting a "feel" for this person and,
if I feel it appropriate, will try to refer them to either rescue or to
a breeder who may be able to help them. But I don't tolerate fools gladly.


This window shopper part is also an issue. A great *many* websites advise
puppy buyers to shop around, to compare & contrast, to look at different
breeders & litters and not just pick a dog out of the first litter they
find. Now why are these club websites suggesting that when it seems to be a
problem for the breeder? I know more breeders than I care to count who
become offended and take that 'my time is precious' stance with people who
consider other breeders as well.

Perhaps because the time to look around is before puppies are ever on
the ground--before, in some cases, the puppies are even bred. Yes, you
should shop around and do research. But not of existing litters. Of
breeders in general. You should know what you want in a dog--couch
potato? Running partner? Show dog? Family dog? Therapy dog? Then there
are some steps you can take to find the right breeder for you (which, by
the way, has nothing to do with whether or not they belong to a breed club.

1. Find out general information on the breed and decide if it's right
for you. You can do that on this list or on one of thousands of
yahoogroups dedicated to different breeds.

2. Find out the health issues and other challenges to your breed (see
above for sources).

3. Formulate a coherent list of what you want so you can talk to a
breeder intelligently. "I am looking for a Doberman that will jog with
my husband, and I don't intend to show so I'm happy with limited
registration." sounds a lot better than "Hey!!! I've always wanted a
Doberman, they're so cool!!!"

4. Go to the AKC website and find the standard of the breed (which you
should have done at step 1) and look at the Breeder Referral, but also
ask your new friends on your breed email list to email you privately if
they have specific breeder recommendations.

5. Contact the breeder(s), dropping names of who recommended them, and
ask if/when they will be breeding again. Talk to them about their dogs,
get a feel for them. Contact several.

6. Decide, of the breeders you've contacted above, which one you've
clicked with best and you feel most confident understands your needs.
Get on a waiting list.

7. Wait. As long as necessary. For the right dog to come from that
breeder. If she's not going to be breeding, ask HER (or him) to
recommend another breeder. They almost always will.

Persistance. Patience. Relationship building. That gets you a good dog.
Screaming about how all breeders are lazy elitist snobs will not.

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:HKyXe.346595$x96.7486@attbi_s72...
Tee wrote:
In doing some window shopping via national breed clubs I'm finding more
and more of them are demanding you send money to them in order to find
out who their member breeders are. IMO that's stepping way over the line
and I think its unethical.

Okay. First. There's no such thing as Member Breeders. that sort of
implies that only breeders are allowed to belong to a National Breed club.

What I mean by "member breeders" are those members of breed clubs generally
listed on a link called "breeder referral." I don't think I've ever seen a
club's breeder referral list contain non-members.

Or that there's a formal organization within each breed club of Member
Breeders, designated as such. Or that all breeders must join the National
Breed club. People join breed clubs. Some breed, some do not. Some do
conformation, some do not. Some are very good breeders, some are not. One
reason you may be having trouble getting a list is because, frankly,
there's no guarantee that breeders who happen to be National Breed club
members are ethical. Getting a list of club members, paid for or not, is
not a great shortcut to an ethical breeder.

I didn't say it was. By implied definition most ethical breeders will
belong to a breed club. That's generally a notion put about on these ngs as
well as in other places. And FWIW, I'm not saying that ethical=perfect or
responsible.

Yep. That's sort of the way things are. People will either make the effort
that buying a companion of the next 10 years takes, or they won't. Most
won't. Most families want instant access to perfection

I wasn't talking about the public wanting perfection. I was talking about
the public's ability to gain access to dogs considered of better quality and
from people who are not backyard breeders.

and are not willing to make any effort at all to try to find quality.

What do you call internet research and reading one website after another
plus trying to garner names of people to talk to if not making an effort?
Is it only an effort if the peoplespend $1000 on plane tickets to attend a
show just to meet some people who may or may not be too busy to talk to
them?

And for them yes, ethical breeders remain unheard of. But for those who
are smart enough to realize that it takes some effort and research to get
a quality animal, the breeders are there. Sort of natural selection, that.

I think your definition of effort and mine, as well as many other people's,
differs.

I understand the point of view of those pushing ethical breedres, breed
clubs, breed events, etc. but I also understand the Doe family's desire
to obtain a dog and be able to find information on that process, to
include where and from whom, without too much hassle.

And I understand the breeder's view that if somebody isn't willing to put
a bit of research into it, then I don't care about selling to them.

How is a person suposed to research, to include the where/who/how then? I'm
sitting here telling you (now and before as my post indicates) that people
are *trying* to research and are running into obstacles.

Obviously. But I think you are misunderstanding some things. I think that
what breed clubs don't release publicly without membership is a full
membership list. However, most breed club members are quite willing to
recommend, or not, individual breeders. All it takes is the prospective
owner contacting the breeder referral on the AKC website, listed with each
breed's standard.

Its these breeder referrals that I'm saying cost money to obtain.

If you are not looking at an AKC breed I can't help you, but this info is
NOT hard to find, all it entails is actually looking up the standard of
the breed you wish to buy, then clicking on a button and using that
information to drop an email or a phone call.

Also, it's well worth noting that not all ethical breeders belong to a
National breed club for one reason or another.

I know and I wasn't implying they did. I was saying that seeing which ones
do broadens the research range by adding more names/lines/breeding practices
to the pool from which to compare and make a final decision.

I think all of you who love to get snarky with people about who they
bought their pet from should begin thinking about a possible
accessibility issue on the part of gaining good information and contacts
and that not all of us in this world are within decent driving distance
to dog shows and specialties where we can meet breeders of breeds we
like.

Sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for you. If you aren't willing
to travel some distance to see and learn about the breed you wish to buy,
then I as a breeder wouldn't necessarily want to sell to you. It indicates
a certain lack of seriousness about the purchase.

I really don't understand how driving 6 hours, or paying a bunch of money
for a plane ticket, to see a breed of dog and talk to its breeder (or only a
handler if breeder isn't present) for a shorter time is greatly beneficial.
What wealth of information am I going to learn from such a trip that I
couldn't have learned from a book, the internet or talking with a breeder
via email? Why, in your opinion, is this in-person effort so crucial to
proving something?

I know my rant started off, and is about this breeder name hostage
situation but some people's attitudes towards others on these ngs really
should take this kind of crap into account. As for the "hostage"
reference that's what I consider this *unless* its the breeders choosing
to have the club operate in this way. If that's the case then IMO
they're a bunch of elitist, uncaring & lazy people who don't want their
names out there because they might have to be bothered by people who
aren't deadly serious about throwing down cash yet.

Bullshit.

No its not as I believe Kathleen proved that point perfectly.

That goes far beyond a rant and into potential libel. I know quite a few
excellent breeders and not a single one meets your description.

Its not libel and I never said all breedres are that way. I know a great
many who aren't but I also know ones who are.

If you want a certain breed, post here about the breed you're looking for
and ask people for pros and cons, then ask people to contact you privately
with good breeder names. How hard is that?????

I'm not looking for a dog. I think its telling that I can get upset over
this when I'm not trying to obtain a dog. Is it that hard to believe that
people who are trying to obtain a dog would become discouraged, get a bad
impression of "ethical" breeders, give up more easily than they probably
should? Keep in mind too that for alot of people "ethical" means not-byb.

And yes. I'll agree. There's just no shortcut to a good dog. There's no
magic formula that will help you go from Ms Clueless to Owner of Superb
Specimen. Generally what it takes is persistance, perseverence, and the
willingness to go out of your way. It takes study, it takes being willing
to wait, it takes developing a relationship with someone you trust well
ahead of getting a puppy from them. Not willing to do that? Too bad, so
sad, no puppy for you.

Please tell me how a person is to develop such a relationship if its
considered rude to shop around and considering that there are breeders who
can't spare the time to "spoon feed" shoppers? Do they have to find you at
a show? What happens if you're not present and only a handler is (assuming
you are one of many who employ handlers)? What happens if you're too busy
because, afterall, you're there to show your dog?

I understand your point as a breeder and I understand that my perspective is
not terribly endearing to you but for all that I seem to be mistaking &
misrepresenting the situation I'd hope that you can try to understand that
its not so cut & dry and that there are alot of good people out there who
run into the mentality, attitude and accessibility problems I describe.

And honestly, after reading your post, if I was a breeder (and I very
occasionally am) you'd go down on my "nope, don't sell to her" list.

Why, because I have an opinion about certain club practices and certain
breeder attitudes? Thanks for taking the time to get to know me. I didn't
even have to fill out an application to fail your test.

When I bred Viva I had a waiting list of 20 people for what ended up being
3 puppies, two to be placed. Why would I want to sell to someone who is so
hostile, who doesn't seem to appreciate my work, who thinks I'm elitist
and lazy? Sorry, I think not.

Did I say those things about you?


--
Tara

Tee wrote:
"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message

Obviously. But I think you are misunderstanding some things. I think that
what breed clubs don't release publicly without membership is a full
membership list. However, most breed club members are quite willing to
recommend, or not, individual breeders. All it takes is the prospective
owner contacting the breeder referral on the AKC website, listed with each
breed's standard.


Its these breeder referrals that I'm saying cost money to obtain.

Which breeds are you talking about? Because I don't know of a single
breed that charges money for a breeder referral list.



I really don't understand how driving 6 hours, or paying a bunch of money
for a plane ticket, to see a breed of dog and talk to its breeder (or only a
handler if breeder isn't present) for a shorter time is greatly beneficial.
What wealth of information am I going to learn from such a trip that I
couldn't have learned from a book, the internet or talking with a breeder
via email? Why, in your opinion, is this in-person effort so crucial to
proving something?

Because nothing in any book will really help you understand the breed
better than SEEING them and MEETING them in the flesh. Watching them
both in and out of the ring can make a huge difference in perception.
Perhaps the breed is, indeed, beautiful, but you see several of them
snarking at other dogs or at people outside the ring, and you see the
handlers treating that as normal. Oops, big red flag. You just cannot
form a solid opinion about a breed without meeting several of what are
considered good representatives. Yes. It is absolutely worth a 6 hour
drive!!!

As an example, I was looking at a certain breed-that-will-remain-
nameless as a possible smaller dog. I did websites and books and looked
at what was winning in the ring on paper. I joined a list, asked about
good and bad points. Got some recommendations of breeders from list
members. Called a couple. I was interested all the way to the point
where I actually went and saw these dogs in person at a couple of shows.
First, I saw softer temperaments than I liked. Second, and the real
killer, I saw not a single dog that I felt had adequate physical
structure to hold up to training. If I had relied only on
books/email/phone, I would not have known this. I needed to see the dogs
in person. Unfortunately people who love a breed tend to exaggerate the
best qualities, not through trying to fool you, but through their rose
colored glasses. Only meeting the dogs, and several of the same breed,
will tell you what you need to know.


And honestly, after reading your post, if I was a breeder (and I very
occasionally am) you'd go down on my "nope, don't sell to her" list.


Why, because I have an opinion about certain club practices and certain
breeder attitudes? Thanks for taking the time to get to know me. I didn't
even have to fill out an application to fail your test.

No. Because you seem judgmental and bitter. Because you are willing to
harangue, but not listen. Because you're lumping everything on the
ethical breeder's shoulder and don't seem to be willing to admit that a
lot of potential buyers want to do no work to get the perfect pet, that
somehow ethical breeders are supposed to find them without them having
to lift a finger. Why on earth would I want to sell to someone like this
when I can sell to much more pleasant people who will love the dog just
as much?
'


When I bred Viva I had a waiting list of 20 people for what ended up being
3 puppies, two to be placed. Why would I want to sell to someone who is so
hostile, who doesn't seem to appreciate my work, who thinks I'm elitist
and lazy? Sorry, I think not.


Did I say those things about you?

I think I can fairly say that I represent the ethical, caring breeder.
Yes. By painting all ethical breeders with the "lazy elitist snobs not
willing to lift a finger until someone plops down cash" you are talking
to me.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:13:02 -0500 Kathleen whittled these words:

Ethical breeders have day jobs because if you're doing it right, there's
pretty much no way to make a living off of breeding dogs. And frankly,
when you've already got a waiting list and your puppies are spoken for
by people you know and trust, having met them at various breed events,
there's very little incentive to spoon feed information to casual window
shoppers.

That pretty much sums up why careless breeders are so successful and why
there is relatively little demand for ethical ones. If responsible
breeders can't be bothered with educating the general public their numbers
will never grow. They will have proven by example the perception that the
dog fancy is elitist and uncaring about dogs in general.

--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
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