When is the right time to neuter ??

On 4/30/2011 4:20 PM, cshenk wrote:
"Char" wrote
kundian wrote:
I have 3 month old lab and was wondering when is the right time to get
him neutered ??
Neutering can interfere with how a dog grows so if you insist on
doing it
please wait until he's sexually mature, especially if you plan on doing
agility or other athletics with your dog. Statistics show that neutered
dogs have more injuries than dogs that are left natural.

I think Kundian was looking for something a bit less vague. No earlier
than
6 months, preference for 1 year.

*Why? What research are you basing that on?


Responsible pet owners don't neuter at all because they feel removing
body
parts just for our own convenience isn't fair to the animal and can
cause
harm in the future.

Lord Char. Responsible owners neuter. Rare exceptions are those doing
reputable breeding with a plan for the pups and folks like that don't ask
here for the normal age of neutering.

*Why would you assume any animal not neutered will be bred? Why would
responsible pet owners cut out body parts when it will greatly increase
the risk of cancers? Why did you ignore the evidence I posted then post
recommendations that ignore science?

This from someone that took a very old, sick dog and gave it vaccines
against the manufacturer's recommendations....

Um....... Many pet owners aren't terrifically responsible enough to
prevent breeding because they have other things on their minds, perhaps?
And I meet a tremendous number who don't have a clue what the signs of a
bitch coming into heat may be, so they Could prevent breeding. Or one
spouse is Very responsible and one isn't...... Or there is a legitimate
reason for neutering/spaying.

Geeze Char, one of my foster dogs came to me after Months with another
rescue group.... about 30 days preggo. The male arrived with the bitch
at that other rescue. We "fixed" all three animals we got from them.
The other bitch had arrived at the first rescue from the owner....
preggo by that same male.

With a large breed male, it's best to wait until at least a year, and 3
years is probably better.... if you want to get technical..... and there
are no behavior problems that neutering will help. By 3 yo, the
skeleton and ligaments are mature.

But all healthy rescues should be neutered/spayed by six months or prior
to placement or within 30 days of receipt by a rescuer if not placed
sooner.

My vet friend often arrives at Friday night dinner with the dog ladies
(includes his wife and teen daughter) upset because yet Another owner
brought in a bitch near death with pyometra and/or mammary cancer......
and demanded a miracle. Not all of these bitches are "old".

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

On 5/2/2011 3:02 PM, Jo Wolf wrote:
Um....... Many pet owners aren't terrifically responsible enough to
prevent breeding because they have other things on their minds, perhaps?
And I meet a tremendous number who don't have a clue what the signs of a
bitch coming into heat may be, so they Could prevent breeding. Or one
spouse is Very responsible and one isn't...... Or there is a legitimate
reason for neutering/spaying.

Then they should not have dogs. Isn't that simple?
Geeze Char, one of my foster dogs came to me after Months with another
rescue group.... about 30 days preggo. The male arrived with the bitch
at that other rescue. We "fixed" all three animals we got from them.
The other bitch had arrived at the first rescue from the owner....
preggo by that same male.
That rescue should be shut down if that is the best they can do.

Gee, Char, judgemental much?

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Char" wrote
cshenk wrote:

I think Kundian was looking for something a bit less vague. No earlier
than 6 months, preference for 1 year.

*Why? What research are you basing that on?

Standard web sites of the reputable nature as well as vets. There are
reasons for waiting longer such as Jo addresses (larger dogs).

Responsible pet owners don't neuter at all

Lord Char. Responsible owners neuter. Rare exceptions are those doing
reputable breeding with a plan for the pups and folks like that don't ask
here for the normal age of neutering.

*Why would you assume any animal not neutered will be bred? Why would
responsible pet owners cut out body parts when it will greatly increase
the risk of cancers? Why did you ignore the evidence I posted then post
recommendations that ignore science?

Char, rescue dogs are neutered. It's part of the contract to get one. You
want to stop the folks who rescue dogs from doing it over your ideas about
neutering, feel free but you aren't going to be listened to.

This from someone that took a very old, sick dog and gave it vaccines
against the manufacturer's recommendations....

Your mantra over a vaccine required by state law gets tiresome as well.
Mabel Anne was recovering well from her heartworm treatment but still
lethargic which at least partly now we can tell was food allergies to
grains. With no proof that she'd ever had any shots at *all* in her life, I
opted to protect her at least with the mandated ones (Rabies was done by the
rescue and vet accepted it fine so that was not given again). You are the
one who thinks her condition was 'against manufacturer recommendations'. In
neither my nor my vets estimation, was her condition so that they should be
delayed. There was more risk of infection du eto her depleted state at that
stage.

In fact Char, my vet did all the footwork from a web page to validate what
shots she didn't need. They googled the rescue, got contact information,
made phone calls and everything, this to prevent her needing another rabies
shot too early.

'Aunti' Mabel has since gotten what other shots were deemed wise as based on
her age and estimated immunity an older dog may have if never vaccinated,
ruling out the few they can tell from the tests we had done. (covered under
her plan, initial visit we didnt have that test data back yet but we do now
5 months later of course). They can't tell from tests that she's ever had
any shots before she got to the rescue. They are either so long ago, no
immunity remains, or she never got them at all.

She also showed no sign of ever having dental work and once they actually
got in there, it was horrific. She was lucky to only have 4 teeth removed.
We still have to have a watch on 2 of them they decided due to her age to
try to save, even if we have to have them removed later.

Good chance 'Aunti' Mabel was fed the cheapest crappy kibble on the market
plus inappropriate table scraps for 14 years before the rescue found her.
Had she been fed right and had proper vet care all her life, she'd probably
be the pooch still bouncing up stairs at age 25. As it is, she's happy and
as healthy as possible in her forever home. We will have to see how long
she lasts but there's a radical difference in her plucky determination to
enjoy life, and Sammy's just general good health that when the time came
suddenly faded in a natural way.

I have no clue how long Mabel Anne has. I only care that she is happy, as
healthy as I can manage to keep her and that so far she's beating the odds
for a dog used as a breeder for 14 years.

"Jo Wolf" wrote

Gee, Char, judgemental much?

Naw! Say it's not so! (Evil grin).

Char and I parted company when she made nastygrams after my 17yo rescue
'Unca' Sammy died. She wanted 'pics' of his dead body or something and
retains a claim now and again that I don't and never have had a dog. Umm,
yeah. Whatever. I have few pics of Sammy and none that are not 'High
definition' with us in them. This due to his solid black coat requiring
that camera and I have never posted them because I am a little more
sensitive to putting too much information out on the internet than some.

Whatever (grin). I think it's pretty funny that anyone can think that
considering the volume of posts about my dogs that aren't the sort anyone
who doesn't have a dog would ever have. I mean, whistle training advice for
a deaf one? Reviews of collar types (non-shock)? Agility sort of training
for arthritic dogs? Bicycle training epics and how the devices didn't fit
my bike and one that did? Struggling to find local RMB resources for my
area? Reviews the the grinder I finally got (includes time it took per lb).
Photobucket pics of cats and dogs living in sin (Sammy not in any). Just
'stuff' any dog owner is going to have.

Oh I need to post that we've solved that collar issue. No need for the
special vibration collar now here. I keep the information from dogman
though as it may come up again later with another dog. Mabel, the 'stalker
pup' got so much into 'watching us' that it became a non-issue.

Last two posts reminding me.....

Susie, my Border Terrier puppy mill dump dog foster who has been here
since the day after Labor Day, preggers when we got her.... spayed ASAP.
We thought that she was a single-coat.... examined for coat by four of
us. It happens. The other night I noticed that she has facial
furnishings (rare with single-coats, hadn't been there earlier).... had
other concerns and hadn't "registered" them.... so stripped out the 3+
years of thin old dead outer coat and found a lovely new outer coat in
place that wasn't there in Sept, either. When I was done, I raked
through her coat with a flea comb and lifted out the same amount of dead
undercoat as my own guys have at this time of year. I've been feeding
high pro, high fat foods.... used some general supplements for the first
3 months. I've talked to some other rescue folks and they have seen
similar things with dogs they've gotten that were kept alive and normal
weight with crappy food. But the naturally single-coat dogs did not do
this.

A couple of months ago, we took in another puppy mill dump dog that had
horrible, stuffed ears.... which at surgery were found to be stuffed
with polyps and Crud.... Got her on no-grain food right away, daily ear
cleaning, antibiotics, etc. Had a note and photos from her new mom the
other day. Her hearing had steadily improved after surgery.... and is
now quite close to normal. She's having a blast going for walks in
town, and starting to explore the acreage at home with her mom. Now
down to cleaning ears once a week. Took two months to get her ears
clean the first time, they were such a mess. She seems fascinated by
new sounds. In case she didn't regain hearing, I had placed her with a
semi-retired obedience instructor, who was prepared to train a deaf dog.

Berry, my mixed breed foster, here since 30 Nov, came with a thin,
cottony pale blonde, dull coat.... skin and bones.... on the county
roads for an extended period.... nails were an inch long.... has had
mats and more mats. I stripped out some of this dead stuff the other
day and, and lo and behold, there is a shiney, hard, pale red or
strawberry blonde coat under there that will not be a matting problem.
So I will strip out that dead stuff, as if stripping a terrier coat, and
expect to find a real beauty under there. Won't be as easy to strip as
the terriers have been this spring. Much nicer looking coat than if she
was clippered. She's still thin, but a good half of her is sighthound,
by structure. Good quality high pro, high fat diet, with initial 3
months of additional general supplements.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

On 5/4/2011 7:39 PM, cshenk wrote:

Char and I parted company when she made nastygrams after my 17yo
rescue 'Unca' Sammy died. She wanted 'pics' of his dead body or something

You have a weird imagination. Whatever you want to imagine is up to you
but don't make me a part of your delusions. Ugh!

Char

On 5/4/2011 7:08 PM, cshenk wrote:
"Char" wrote
cshenk wrote:

I think Kundian was looking for something a bit less vague. No
earlier than 6 months, preference for 1 year.

*Why? What research are you basing that on?

Standard web sites of the reputable nature as well as vets. There are
reasons for waiting longer such as Jo addresses (larger dogs).

Yet you can't name any specific websites. And there is no such critter
as a "standard website".


Responsible pet owners don't neuter at all

Lord Char. Responsible owners neuter. Rare exceptions are those doing
reputable breeding with a plan for the pups and folks like that don't
ask
here for the normal age of neutering.

*Why would you assume any animal not neutered will be bred? Why would
responsible pet owners cut out body parts when it will greatly
increase the risk of cancers? Why did you ignore the evidence I
posted then post recommendations that ignore science?

Char, rescue dogs are neutered. It's part of the contract to get one.

No it's not true at all. There is no standard contract that everyone
follows. Each rescue has their own criteria. I got my Aussie through a
rescue and she wasn't spayed. She had a litter before I took her in but
that was several years ago. Her best friend is an intact male that has
been here just as long (was born in my bathroom actually). When I got
his mother she was days away from having a litter. She was rescued from
a neighbor.

I wish you'd stop posting such silly statements. It makes people think
your IQ is about 65.

You want to stop the folks who rescue dogs from doing it over your
ideas about neutering, feel free but you aren't going to be listened to.

This from someone that took a very old, sick dog and gave it vaccines
against the manufacturer's recommendations....

Your mantra over a vaccine required by state law gets tiresome as
well. Mabel Anne was recovering well from her heartworm treatment but
still lethargic which at least partly now we can tell was food
allergies to grains. With no proof that she'd ever had any shots at
*all* in her life, I opted to protect her at least with the mandated
ones (Rabies was done by the rescue and vet accepted it fine so that
was not given again). You are the one who thinks her condition was
'against manufacturer recommendations'.

No, the manufacturer thinks her condition is a valid reason not to give
the vaccine. That's a fact, not a random thought or opinion. Obviously
you've never read what the drug companies send with those shots.

In neither my nor my vets estimation, was her condition so that they
should be delayed. There was more risk of infection du eto her
depleted state at that stage.

In fact Char, my vet did all the footwork from a web page to validate
what shots she didn't need. They googled the rescue, got contact
information, made phone calls and everything, this to prevent her
needing another rabies shot too early.

At her age she would never need any at all. Repeating shots does not
boost immunity. It actually tends to make it worse. At her age even if
she never had a single shot she would have had to have antibodies in her
anyway.


'Aunti' Mabel has since gotten what other shots were deemed wise as
based on her age

Based on her age she should not be getting any shots at all. There is no
point in it. Poor dog!

and estimated immunity an older dog may have if never vaccinated,
ruling out the few they can tell from the tests we had done. (covered
under her plan, initial visit we didnt have that test data back yet
but we do now 5 months later of course). They can't tell from tests
that she's ever had any shots before she got to the rescue. They are
either so long ago, no immunity remains, or she never got them at all.

You can't test for immunity. It's not possible. The best you can do is
titer tests. Your lack of knowledge is astounding and has been since you
started posting here. I highly suggest Googling titers and immunity so
you have a small clue.

Char

On 5/8/2011 5:40 PM, cshenk wrote:
Char wrote in rec.pets.dogs.health:
cshenk wrote to Jo Wolf:
Char and I parted company when she made nastygrams after my 17yo
rescue 'Unca' Sammy died. She wanted 'pics' of his dead body or
something
You have a weird imagination. Whatever you want to imagine is up to
you but don't make me a part of your delusions. Ugh!
Shall we google your old messages where even dogman snapped at you over
that one? You refused to believe I even had any dogs and demanded
pictures.

How is that the same as asking for pics of a dead dog? What meds are you
on? Maybe you should up the dose.