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When is euth. warranted?



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 3rd 04, 06:40 PM
michae-l
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Charlie Wilkes wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy
wrote:


Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not
have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate
responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming
it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And
then she continued grooming it.


"You're not going to behave that way to ME when
I'm trying to GROOM you!!!"


That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's
impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It
makes the problem worse.

Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered,
and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which
can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog,
systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor.

That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions
from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart.


This video, fans, is the best one I know of
to start getting that point across in puppyhood.

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm

But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea
that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing.

And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance,
I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown,
because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So
what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug
of war, and I get my face really close to his (this
causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are
really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling
with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear
with the other hand, and really getting into it
(and he's loving it, of course...)


and then, suddently,
I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and
tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to
be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically
senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game
to commence again.




this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in
that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring
them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy
it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief
of toys.

Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding
is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out
vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by
one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with
feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put
the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by
growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want.
And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do!

As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an
inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have
had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible
chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled.

hCharlie


  #22  
Old February 3rd 04, 08:31 PM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote:



Charlie Wilkes wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy
wrote:


Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not
have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate
responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming
it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And
then she continued grooming it.


"You're not going to behave that way to ME when
I'm trying to GROOM you!!!"


That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's
impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It
makes the problem worse.

Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered,
and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which
can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog,
systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor.

Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my
goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to
trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all
goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important.

My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in
Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup,
to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in
advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The
instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to
the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse
through repeated confrontations.

"People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once
the pattern has been installed."

Charlie



That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions
from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart.


This video, fans, is the best one I know of
to start getting that point across in puppyhood.

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm

But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea
that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing.

And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance,
I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown,
because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So
what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug
of war, and I get my face really close to his (this
causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are
really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling
with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear
with the other hand, and really getting into it
(and he's loving it, of course...)


and then, suddently,
I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and
tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to
be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically
senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game
to commence again.




this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in
that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring
them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy
it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief
of toys.

Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding
is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out
vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by
one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with
feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put
the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by
growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want.
And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do!

As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an
inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have
had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible
chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled.

hCharlie


  #23  
Old February 3rd 04, 08:31 PM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote:



Charlie Wilkes wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy
wrote:


Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not
have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate
responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming
it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And
then she continued grooming it.


"You're not going to behave that way to ME when
I'm trying to GROOM you!!!"


That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's
impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It
makes the problem worse.

Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered,
and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which
can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog,
systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor.

Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my
goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to
trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all
goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important.

My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in
Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup,
to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in
advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The
instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to
the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse
through repeated confrontations.

"People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once
the pattern has been installed."

Charlie



That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions
from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart.


This video, fans, is the best one I know of
to start getting that point across in puppyhood.

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm

But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea
that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing.

And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance,
I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown,
because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So
what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug
of war, and I get my face really close to his (this
causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are
really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling
with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear
with the other hand, and really getting into it
(and he's loving it, of course...)


and then, suddently,
I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and
tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to
be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically
senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game
to commence again.




this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in
that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring
them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy
it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief
of toys.

Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding
is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out
vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by
one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with
feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put
the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by
growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want.
And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do!

As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an
inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have
had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible
chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled.

hCharlie


  #24  
Old February 3rd 04, 08:31 PM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote:



Charlie Wilkes wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy
wrote:


Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not
have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate
responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming
it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And
then she continued grooming it.


"You're not going to behave that way to ME when
I'm trying to GROOM you!!!"


That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's
impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It
makes the problem worse.

Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered,
and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which
can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog,
systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor.

Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my
goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to
trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all
goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important.

My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in
Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup,
to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in
advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The
instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to
the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse
through repeated confrontations.

"People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once
the pattern has been installed."

Charlie



That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions
from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart.


This video, fans, is the best one I know of
to start getting that point across in puppyhood.

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm

But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea
that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing.

And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance,
I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown,
because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So
what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug
of war, and I get my face really close to his (this
causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are
really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling
with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear
with the other hand, and really getting into it
(and he's loving it, of course...)


and then, suddently,
I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and
tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to
be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically
senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game
to commence again.




this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in
that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring
them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy
it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief
of toys.

Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding
is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out
vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by
one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with
feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put
the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by
growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want.
And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do!

As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an
inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have
had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible
chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled.

hCharlie


  #25  
Old February 3rd 04, 08:31 PM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:40:57 -0500, michae-l
wrote:



Charlie Wilkes wrote:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy
wrote:


Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not
have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate
responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming
it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And
then she continued grooming it.


"You're not going to behave that way to ME when
I'm trying to GROOM you!!!"


That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's
impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It
makes the problem worse.

Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


That can work, if the dog is amenable to being overpowered,
and will submit. But ideally, instead of overpowering (which
can cause a backlash in many dogs) we want to teach the dog,
systematically, that we are not a threat or a competitor.

Of course. I don't have to prove anything to a dog who feeds in my
goddamn kitchen. My ego isn't that deprived. But, I want the dog to
trust me and basically REVERE me as the supreme source of all
goodness, so it will do what I want it to when it's important.

My tenants and I recently went to the Academy of Canine Behavior in
Bothell, WA for a "private puppy lesson" for their new pit bull pup,
to help us make sure we are tuned into breed-specific issues in
advance. This place is a sort of reform school for bad dogs. The
instructor told us one of the most common reasons people bring dogs to
the place is because of growling problems that they have made worse
through repeated confrontations.

"People should never do that," he said. "It's hard to correct once
the pattern has been installed."

Charlie



That they don't have to defend themselves or their possessions
from us. This doesn't mean we are "soft" it just means we are smart.


This video, fans, is the best one I know of
to start getting that point across in puppyhood.

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm

But it's also teaching the dog morality, and the idea
that you don't bite people, no matter what you are doing.

And it's a lesson you never stop teaching. For instance,
I was just interrupted by now 2 year old Kwame Brown,
because he wanted to play tug of war with a towel. So
what I do is, play an aggressive, growling game of tug
of war, and I get my face really close to his (this
causes him to growl more as he is pulling), and we are
really going at it back and forth, and I'm pulling
with one hand and growling and grabbing at his ear
with the other hand, and really getting into it
(and he's loving it, of course...)


and then, suddently,
I put my hand right in his mouth as he's growling and
tugging and I say "nice" which is simply a reminder to
be careful of what you are doing, and he automatically
senses my hand and lets go and waits for the game
to commence again.




this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in
that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring
them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy
it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief
of toys.

Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding
is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out
vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by
one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with
feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put
the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by
growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want.
And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do!

As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an
inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have
had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible
chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled.

hCharlie


  #26  
Old February 3rd 04, 09:06 PM
sionnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly-
whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a
calm, matter of fact way.


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe.


Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true.
Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly
likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone
bitten.









  #27  
Old February 3rd 04, 09:06 PM
sionnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly-
whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a
calm, matter of fact way.


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe.


Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true.
Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly
likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone
bitten.









  #28  
Old February 3rd 04, 09:06 PM
sionnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly-
whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a
calm, matter of fact way.


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe.


Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true.
Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly
likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone
bitten.









  #29  
Old February 3rd 04, 09:06 PM
sionnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!


Not at all true. It depends on how you handle doing it repeatedly-
whether you approach it as "I'm going to teach this dog who's boss!" or in a
calm, matter of fact way.


If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe.


Don't know what you're basing this on, but this is also not at all true.
Backing off completely, "deferring" and "avoiding the trigger" is highly
likely to *increase* the possessive/dominant behaviour, and get someone
bitten.









  #30  
Old February 3rd 04, 09:34 PM
michae-l
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
On 3 Feb 2004 15:32:21 GMT, KWBrown


In my experience, there is no difference between what some folks call
"Springer Rage," "rage," "Jekyll & Hyde Syndrome," etc., and what
others (mostly credentialed behaviorists) call idiopathic aggression.

It's all the same ILLNESS.

But whatever "it" is, it can't be cured,


BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA!!!


it can't be modified,


BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!



it
can't be treated,


BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAHAHAAA!!!!



it's not caused by any kind of mishandling or abuse,



BWAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Then why didn't Teena just threaten Kate when
Kate was washing the dishes instead of when
Kate had Teena on the ground and was
grooming and manhandling Teena and Scolding
Teena for taking offense?

Answer that You dumb****ing ignoramous?


Thanks for your input, Jerkoff

You ever been on TV Jerkoff?
Why don't you get into a debate over Politics?

Because you're an idiot and you're not smart
enough to get on TV...

BWHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAA!!!



this is m-ichael
reportin-g live..
http:__dogtv.com

 




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