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Hunters and hunting dogs.



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 27th 03, 05:13 AM
Child
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"Chris Williams" wrote in message
...
The radio is droning on and just reported something interesting: the
average age of hunters in 1980 was 35; now. it's 42. This concerns
various Fish and Game departments because they rely on hunters to
control over-population of deer and other species.
I've never really known how to feel about hunters. And about their
dogs. Those I knew when I was a kid really treated their dogs like
'tools', taking them out to train or hunt, then returning them to a
kennel where they spent the rest of their lives. It was considered
deleterious to treat them as pets. Has this changed?



Some people still think you need to keep a hunting dog outside, so its coat
gets thick enough. But I know many hunting dog owners whose dogs are every
bit as much a part of the household as mine are. I know at least 8 women at
the dog club who hunt with their dogs.


  #22  
Old October 27th 03, 08:05 AM
culprit
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"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...



nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'

HTH!!!

-kelly


  #23  
Old October 27th 03, 08:05 AM
culprit
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"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...



nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'

HTH!!!

-kelly


  #24  
Old October 27th 03, 08:05 AM
culprit
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"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...



nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'

HTH!!!

-kelly


  #25  
Old October 27th 03, 08:05 AM
culprit
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"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...



nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'

HTH!!!

-kelly


  #26  
Old October 27th 03, 12:27 PM
shelly
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On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, culprit wrote:

"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...


nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'


in addition to Kelly's lovely gift, i took up a collection at
work and bought you a ,. we also bought you some punctuation
desensitization classes, to help you with your fear issues.
HTH!

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #27  
Old October 27th 03, 12:27 PM
shelly
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On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, culprit wrote:

"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...


nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'


in addition to Kelly's lovely gift, i took up a collection at
work and bought you a ,. we also bought you some punctuation
desensitization classes, to help you with your fear issues.
HTH!

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #28  
Old October 27th 03, 12:27 PM
shelly
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, culprit wrote:

"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...


nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'


in addition to Kelly's lovely gift, i took up a collection at
work and bought you a ,. we also bought you some punctuation
desensitization classes, to help you with your fear issues.
HTH!

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #29  
Old October 27th 03, 12:27 PM
shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, culprit wrote:

"Jokerpit" wrote in message
...
and your the genius of the groups huh...


nope, you are.

oh, and i have a present for you.

'


in addition to Kelly's lovely gift, i took up a collection at
work and bought you a ,. we also bought you some punctuation
desensitization classes, to help you with your fear issues.
HTH!

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #30  
Old October 27th 03, 03:04 PM
Emily Carroll
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Wow. Lookit. Someone who can use big words.

--
Emily Carroll
Dealing 80s Toys - Rainbow Brite - My Little Pony - More
Website: www.geocities.com/diamonds_in_her_eyes
Labrador Puppy Pages: www.geocities.com/labpuppypages/
CPG: www.geocities.com/cyberpetgame


"C. Macklin" wrote in message
...
I doubt that you have the requisite intellect to make reasonable
presumptions about what I prefer or the techniques that I use in the
training of my retrievers.

I will endeavor to make a point here in order to aid in the understanding

of
any novice trainer who might become confused by the ridiculous assertions
and ill-conceived rhetoric contained in your original post.

for example:

"Any time the word "force" appears in reference to training any animal,
abuse is occurring. "

This statement makes a strong, but perhaps misleading point. There are
several techniques that are traditionally accepted for conditioning the
`forced retrieve', but to equate `force' with abuse without having
quantified the results of said technique, and without qualifying the
statement with specific recommendations which have (in your own

experience)
yielded equal results to the methods you (presumably) deplore is
intellectually dishonest.

And this:

" Proper training occurs only when you are able to
find a natural response to stimuli and can encourage it with positive
reinforcement. Always give an animal its due. Let's keep it
perfectly clear that "stimuli" means the activity or event that you
want a response to."

Is sufficiently ambiguous to have less value or meaning than the several
pounds of what the first rule of canine behavior generates in my yard and
kennels each week, yet retains some of the fuzzy quality that warms the
hearts of anthromorphic behavioral theorists everywhere.

And this, I sincerely doubt:

".......... every hunter I know that uses dogs
(and I know literally hundreds of them)........"
"......... no hunting dog that I know of (among my
circles) has ever even seen a hand lifted in anger or ever heard a harsh
word in their direction."

But, since you raise the point, what are your experiences with these
hundreds of dogs?
Have you seen them work?
Train with their owners?
What is the relative quality of these dogs, I probably can't name 100

people
that I know that hunt with dogs that they have trained themselves but, of
the dozens that come to mind, I'd guess about 15-20% have participated in
hunt tests or field trials.......what are your (or your friends)

experiences
in this arena. My understanding is that these training enthusiasts are
always looking for superior training techniques.......if your philosophy
yields a superior result, shouldn't you be using these results to expose
these bad dog abusing individuals?


WTF?

"Except for one case in which I gladly sent the
man to jail for abuse,......"

Are you some sort of magistrate or law-enforcement official who has the
power to unilaterally lock people up?
Or just some loon busybody with 911 on the speed dial?


If you want to express opinions about dog training, good for you, but you
fail to make a point that the use of `force' is mutually exclusive to

loving
and respecting ones dog.

You put forth a great number of empirical statements about what dogs think
and how they behave that contradict both scientific behavioral studies and
the anecdotal experiences of the most successful professional dog trainers
in the history of sporting, law-enforcement, military and behavioral

fields
of endeavor.

For the sake of clarity I will add one caveat before I end this:
As I've said before; the ultimate arbiter of any training technique is the
DOG. I have seen happy, stylish enthusiastic dogs that are the product of
training regimens that may be distasteful to the casual observer. I have
also seen pathetic scared-looking dogs whose owners preach the same
"train-me-with-a-hug" gospel that you seem to hold to.
Good judgment and the ability to read dogs and to think like a dog are

the
common (which is to say, uncommon) characteristics of all of the great

dog
trainers I've known.

From your post it seems that you may fall amongst those who are (in the
vernacular of Texas) "All hat and no cattle" (a lot of damned opinions

about
being a cowboy for someone who ain't ranchin')
Which leads me to believe.
If you walk like Jerry and talk like Jerry.....you are probably `witless

to
no end'.













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