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Sentinel & Liver failure ?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 23rd 04, 01:17 PM
tom mitchell
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Default Sentinel & Liver failure ?

Sadly I am going to lose my second dog to liver failure. While the
circumstances and symptoms are different, I am worried that there is a
link with respect to food, environment or medicine.

One thing that both dogs have had in common is that they have been on
the monthly Sentinel program to protect against worms and fleas. The
medication has been given according to the prescriptions once a month
and never showed any side-effects.

Is anybody aware of any issues with respect to Sentinel? My dogs
were/are large dogs (Cross Kelpie/German Shepard and Cross
Labrador/German Shepard). My current dog (XLab) that has just been
diagnosed with liver failure is not even 7 years old, has never been
sick before, so losing another dog to liver failure comes as a shock
to me. Since I have two other dogs that I would like to protect as
much as possible, any advice or info is greatly appreciated.


  #2  
Old August 24th 04, 01:02 AM
Spot
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I for one do not treat for fleas unless they show up. I feel the less
toxins in the dogs body the better and anyway you look at it, it is a toxin.
The only preventative I use on my dogs year round is a monthly interceptor
for heartworms and only because heartworm can be fatal to a dog.

Barney is my flea barometer and the first bite of a flea he's digging away.
I'm lucky with these two since in the last 4 years I've only had to do two
treatments for fleas and because I caught them early it amounted to only 1
dose of Frontline Plus on each dog and the three cats and that was the end
of the fleas.

Celeste



"tom mitchell" wrote in message
...
Sadly I am going to lose my second dog to liver failure. While the
circumstances and symptoms are different, I am worried that there is a
link with respect to food, environment or medicine.

One thing that both dogs have had in common is that they have been on
the monthly Sentinel program to protect against worms and fleas. The
medication has been given according to the prescriptions once a month
and never showed any side-effects.

Is anybody aware of any issues with respect to Sentinel? My dogs
were/are large dogs (Cross Kelpie/German Shepard and Cross
Labrador/German Shepard). My current dog (XLab) that has just been
diagnosed with liver failure is not even 7 years old, has never been
sick before, so losing another dog to liver failure comes as a shock
to me. Since I have two other dogs that I would like to protect as
much as possible, any advice or info is greatly appreciated.




  #3  
Old August 24th 04, 02:00 AM
buglady
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Default

"tom mitchell" wrote in message
...
Sadly I am going to lose my second dog to liver failure.

While the
circumstances and symptoms are different, I am worried that there is a
link with respect to food, environment or medicine.


.........have you had any tests run for Leptospirosis? Some of them only
affect the liver. Any tests run for canine hepatitis - apprently liver
biopsy is necesary for definitive diagnosis. Do you have any mushrooms in
your yard that your dogs may eat? Do you leave your dogs unattended in the
yard and have any loony neighbors? Do you give any other drugs on a regular
basis?

Is anybody aware of any issues with respect to Sentinel?

..........not that I could find. There are neurological effects if overdosed
and some dogs react if given the normal dosage. You can read the original
research on milbemycin oxime-lufenuron at the Center for Vet Med (USDA) by
searching on NADA 141-084, which is the New Animal Drug Approval number.
You can either just enter that in the search box on this page:
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/default.html Or go to the Freedom of Information
section and search. To look at adverse reactions search under Adverse Drug
Reactions.

Both ivermectin (in Heartgard) and milbemycin (in Sentinel) are called
macrocylic lactones. From the online Merck Vet Manual:
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/191414.htm
The macrocyclic lactones are mostly excreted in the feces, the remainder in
the urine. Minimal residues are present in the muscle and kidneys, and
highest concentrations are detected in the liver and fat
tissue................Mammals are generally not adversely affected by
macrocyclic lactones. Mammalian safety appears to depend on P-glycoprotein
activity in the blood-brain barrier. P-glycoproteins act to pump out
macrocyclic lactones from CNS cells, and animals with defective
P-glycoprotein levels in the blood-brain barrier are susceptible to
macrocyclic lactone toxicity. There have been a number of cases of CNS
depression in purebred and crossbred Collies at higher than recommended
dosages.

Dr. Mike on liver disease and heartworm preventatives:
http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/dliver.html
We have used these medications in a
number of dogs with liver disease, since we live in a heartworm endemic
area and so far, we have not been able to detect problems with either
ivermectin (Heartgard 30 Rx) or milbemycin (Interceptor or Sentinel Rx).

These drugs do cycle through the liver however. I hope you can figure out
what is going on. This is very sad.

buglady
take out the dog before replying



  #4  
Old August 24th 04, 03:34 PM
Glimpact
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Default

Has your vet discussed the possibility of using milk thistle for rejuvenating
the liver?

  #5  
Old August 24th 04, 03:42 PM
Gwen Watson
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Glimpact wrote:

Has your vet discussed the possibility of using milk thistle for rejuvenating
the liver?



Is there any data that supports Milk thistle working in dogs? What would
the dosage
be?

Gwen

  #6  
Old August 24th 04, 06:27 PM
buglady
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"Gwen Watson" wrote in message
...

Is there any data that supports Milk thistle working in dogs? What would
the dosage be?


..........Yes, milk thistle saved the livers of dogs who ate Amanita
mushrooms.
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/liver3-6.html

I've posted stuff many times in the past - links and dosages for pets - go
to Google, click Groups then enter this string:

rec.pets.dogs.health buglady thistle

buglady
take out the dog before replying



  #7  
Old August 25th 04, 11:20 AM
tom mitchell
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Default

ch as possible, any advice or info is greatly appreciated.
Thanks guys for your posts, much appreciated.

I have followed some of the links and will read up on this more. I
have talked once again with my vet regarding Sentinel and milk
thistle.
As for Sentinel he has not heard anything bad about side effects like
we exerienced, in fact thinks that the constituent ingredient is
reportedly less of a problem than some other medications. Still, I
think I will look for an alternative and reduce the medication to the
essential only instead of the cover everyting at once pill.

I also asked re milk thistle, my vet did not have any info on that but
I will try. Hopefully it may help though given the prognosis, it might
be too late.

Thanks again everybody.

  #8  
Old August 25th 04, 01:44 PM
tom mitchell
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Buglady,

I followed your reference and searched the google groups for info on
the dosage but I am a bit confused.

Sofar I have found milk thistle in pharmacies only in form of
capsules.The product I bought says extract equivalent to dry fruit 7g
(7000mg) and standardized to contain flavanolignans 84mg.
The recommended dosage for adults is 1 tablet three times daily.

One of the articles mentioned recommends as a typical adult dosage for
silymarin to be 240-900mg/day. Does that relate to the standardized
84g/tablet as above?

I have not found any liquid product - any brandnames that I can search
for. Not sure whether it would be available in Australia, but I could
try.

Kind Regards
Tom

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:27:37 GMT, "buglady"
wrote:

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/liver3-6.html


  #9  
Old August 25th 04, 09:49 PM
buglady
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Default

"tom mitchell" wrote in message
...
Sofar I have found milk thistle in pharmacies only in form of
capsules.

..........Health food stores usually have liquid extracts. Don't know what
the situation is in Oz though. When dealing with an ongoing liver problem,
liquids are usually used because they are absorbed at a higher rate. Is
this what you bought?
http://www.blackmores.com.au/product...at=107&prod=69

The product I bought says extract equivalent to dry fruit 7g
(7000mg) and standardized to contain flavanolignans 84mg.
The recommended dosage for adults is 1 tablet three times daily.


Quote from Herbs for Pets about standardization of herbs:
A standardized extract is more of a plant drug than an herbal
medicine......For example, in nature, milk thistle seeds contain anywhere
from 2% to 6% silymarin, the most medicinally active component of the plant.
In cases of severe liver damage or toxicity,a much higher percentage of
silymarin may be needed to quickly bring about a therapeutic effect. A milk
thistle extract that has been standardized to as much as 80% silymarin can
be used in such cases.

Silymarin is sort of a catchall term. See below
http://www.ironmagazine.com/review46.html

.......Quite frankly I don't like the kind of labeling on the product you
bought. It only adds to the confusion. And I wonder about not using the
term silymarin on the label. Just go with the 84 mg and figure dose from
there.

vet recommendations for use:
Jean Hofve, DVM
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-...lk_thistle.htm

Veterinary Botanical Medical Association - Susan Wynn, DVM
http://www.vbma.org/herbs/milkthistle8-02.html

Russell Swift, DVM
http://siriusdog.com/articles/milk-t...m-marianum.htm

Gulf Coast VEterinary Oncology staff:
http://www.zzcat.com/TumorTidbits/Mi...-Silymarin.txt

Antech Diagnostics (a veterinary laboratory service)
http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/cli.../2000/7-00.htm

One of the articles mentioned recommends as a typical adult dosage for
silymarin to be 240-900mg/day. Does that relate to the standardized
84g/tablet as above?


.......I think most milk thistle products are standardized. Mary-Wulff
Tilford & Gregory Tilford (Herbs for Pets) recommend that powdered extracts
should be standardized to contain 60- 80% silymarin

http://medherb.com/SAMPLE.HTM
Milk thistle seed extracts, usually standardized to 70% silymarin content,
are commonly used in conventional medicine in Europe, where it has been
officially available since 1969.

.......Now what % your tablets are standardized to is the question! If it's
the company I mentioned above, why don't you write them? Or go to a health
food store and get something else and return these to the drug store, which
is not a place I usually buy supplements.

As for figuring dosages for dogs - all human supplements are generally
forumlated for a 150 pound adult. Use percentages of that depending on
weight for your dog. The Tilfords recommend dosing dogs and cats with
smaller more frequent doses during the day.

HTH
buglady
take out the dog before replying





 




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