A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog behavior
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

The Dog Whisperer



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old July 8th 06, 03:48 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 873
Default The Dog Whisperer


"Judith Althouse" wrote in message:

Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol, my hero, my
guru. i want to be him when I grow up so, whadda ya say do ya like
him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!


I am kind of neutral on him. He clearly has decent dog skills, and has
excellent people skills, which is often what it takes to make people really
listen. He is absolutely correct in identifying lack of exercise and
leadership as some of the primary causes of behavior problems in the dogs.

Beyond that, I have disagreed with some of his methodology, believe that
they really do need to show the extent of the work done instead of
portraying him as some kind of miracle worker, and show the real dangers
behind what would happen if someone without serious dog skills were to apply
some of his methods.

Suja


  #12  
Old July 8th 06, 04:35 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 108
Default The Dog Whisperer

This is the Pat Miller review. She's a trainer, author, and current
APDT president.

---
(cross posted with permission)

Cesar's Way: The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding &
Correcting
Common Dog Problems
By Cesar Millan, with Melissa Jo Peltier
Harmony Books, 320 pp., 2006; $24.95
Reviewed by Pat Miller

Almost every dog-training book has something to offer the discerning
reader, and Cesar's Way is no exception. The book's strength is as
an autobiography of National Geographic's TV dog-trainer star, Cesar
Millan. If you're curious about how Millan got where he is today,
this book will tell you. If you're looking for significant help
training your dog, however, look elsewhere.

Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets-and
consequences- of Cesar's "way" with trepidation. In an
interview published in the New York Times in February of this year, Dr.
Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts
University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My
College thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic
Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."

Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information,
offering instead broad generalizations about projecting
"calm-assertive energy"-a Millan catch phrase-and instilling
"calm, submissive energy" in your dog. For example, in Chapter 8,
he offers "Simple Tips for Living Happily with Your Dog." His
"Rules of the House" include:
"Wake up on your terms, not his ... condition him to get quietly off
the bed if he wakes before you do."
"Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!"
"Don't allow out-of-control barking."

Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he explain how to
accomplish these things, other than by using calm-assertive energy.

Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "politically
incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance theory, stating, "To
dogs, there are only two positions in a relationship: leader and
follower. Dominant and submissive. It's either black or white." He
even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of authorities to allow
him to rehabilitate Hera, one of the two notorious Presa Canario dogs
who killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment
building.

In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in terms of
dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha roll as part of his
"dominance ritual"; this technique-forcibly rolling a dog on his
side or back and holding him there-is considered by many to be a
dangerous practice based on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior. It
long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods are based on
the science of behavior and learning.

Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers talk
about behavior, and generally agree that status in social groups is
fluid and contextual, not black or white. Truly effective and long-term
success in behavior modification requires a far more studied and
complex approach than simply asserting dominance.

Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely. Millan
refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on his TV show
who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims that with less
than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence, Kane was striding
confidently down the slick hallway. Every trainer I know who has
watched that segment notes the dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing
stress signals: head and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting.

Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior, a
concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a description
of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with his pack of dogs
every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of Southern California,
followed by afternoons spent rollerblading with those same dogs, 10 at
a time, on the streets around his training center.

One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it gives the
dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog owners can spend six
hours a day exercising their dogs? How many can project
"calm-assertive energy"? The danger of Cesar's Way is that it
assures owners that quick fixes and easy answers lie in the hands of a
smiling man with the elusive calm-assertive energy.

In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity of life,
where solutions are often not quick and easy, but are solidly built on
a sturdy foundation and an understanding of how behavior really works.

  #13  
Old July 8th 06, 04:52 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Handsome Jack Morrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,772
Default The Dog Whisperer

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 11:20:04 -0400, elegy
wrote:

[]
sure there are good aspects of what he says- treat your dogs like
dogs, the way you act/feel (ie your "energy" *eyeroll*) affects your
dog's behavior, the root of much problem behavior is not enough
exercise- but that's nothing ground-breaking.


I've seen maybe 6-7 episodes. I don't see a lot of dog *training*
going on, but from what I understand the show to be about, it's, "I
rehabilitate dogs. I train people." That's his shtick. And I think he
does a pretty good job of it.

And I agree, there's nothing ground-breaking about what he does.

But I think that having a show like this reach the masses, well, that
*is* ground-breaking, and it just might have a positive effect on the
folks out there who might recognize *themselves* in the folks and
families he "trains" on his show.

It surely can't hurt.

And his results appear to speak for themselves.

I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, or what a follow-up
study of how the dogs are doing after, say, 6 months, would reveal.

So...from the shows I've seen so far, I'm sticking with the thumbs-UP.

PS: I watched one show, where the family's children (I'm guessing
about 10-12 year old) just wouldn't shut up. They actually ruled the
roost. They talked over Millan. They talked over their parents. They
were loud and obnoxious brats. During one of their loud outbursts, the
camera panned over to Millan and it caught him rolling his eyes. He
was a *lot* more tolerant of that kind of behavior than I would have
been, even for a couple hundred bucks an hour.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison
  #14  
Old July 8th 06, 04:56 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 108
Default The Dog Whisperer


Judith Althouse wrote:
I am not
familiar with the term flooding


I'm sure someone has a better definition, but it's conquering a fear by
intense and overwhelming exposure to the source of the fear. My
experiece with it in dogs is one of 3 results: 1) reduced fear within
the session but equal or greater fear at subsequent exposure, 2)
transference of the fear to a different trigger, or 3) temporary relief
with eventual return of the fear at a lower level. It's usually used
with fear issues, but also for things like dog-dog aggression, like
the Bite Class model where aggressive dogs are turned loose together,
muzzled.

Lynn K.

  #15  
Old July 8th 06, 05:16 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Paula
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,726
Default The Dog Whisperer

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:19:30 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:52:58 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

Put me in the thumbs-UP column. And I disagree with you that his
flooding techniques would produce only temporary relief. At least the
ones that I've seen him use.


Anyone want to discuss the specific example[s] of flooding they've
actually observed Millan using on his show?

Can I see a show of hands?


I'd like to read that discussion, even though the one episode of the
show I saw didn't have anything to do with flooding so I couldn't add
to the discussion.


--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
  #16  
Old July 8th 06, 05:52 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Handsome Jack Morrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,772
Default The Dog Whisperer

On 8 Jul 2006 08:35:42 -0700, wrote:

[]
Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets-and
consequences- of Cesar's "way" with trepidation. In an
interview published in the New York Times in February of this year, Dr.
Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts
University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My
College thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic
Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."


That figures. It might have a deleterious effect on all this "purely
positive" training nonsense.

Which is basically what the APDT organization is all about.

Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information,
offering instead broad generalizations about projecting
"calm-assertive energy"-a Millan catch phrase-and instilling
"calm, submissive energy" in your dog. For example, in Chapter 8,
he offers "Simple Tips for Living Happily with Your Dog." His
"Rules of the House" include:
"Wake up on your terms, not his ... condition him to get quietly off
the bed if he wakes before you do."
"Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!"
"Don't allow out-of-control barking."

Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he explain how to
accomplish these things, other than by using calm-assertive energy.


I haven't read the book, but he certainly does this on his show.

Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "politically
incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance theory, stating, "To
dogs, there are only two positions in a relationship: leader and
follower. Dominant and submissive. It's either black or white." He
even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of authorities to allow
him to rehabilitate Hera, one of the two notorious Presa Canario dogs
who killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment
building.


I wouldn't call that hubris. Maybe confidence? But I take my hat off
to him for wanting to try.

On the other hand, from what I know of the Whipple story, Hera
probably should have been put down.

In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in terms of
dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha roll as part of his
"dominance ritual"; this technique-forcibly rolling a dog on his
side or back and holding him there-is considered by many to be a
dangerous practice based on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior. It
long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods are based on
the science of behavior and learning.


It definitely is a dangerous practice, because few trainers know how
and when to employ it properly. And it should fall out of disfavor.

And it has.

Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers talk
about behavior, and generally agree that status in social groups is
fluid and contextual, not black or white. Truly effective and long-term
success in behavior modification requires a far more studied and
complex approach than simply asserting dominance.


I think this is mostly the typical aversion to the word dominance by
the "purely positive, " touchy-feely crowd. If Millan ever asked for
my advise, I'd tell him to lose the word dominance altogether and talk
to them about the importance of being your dog's LEADER.

Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely. Millan
refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on his TV show
who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims that with less
than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence, Kane was striding
confidently down the slick hallway. Every trainer I know who has
watched that segment notes the dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing
stress signals: head and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting.


I totally disagree with that. I watched that episode, and *I* didn't
see any signs of stress. But for sake of argument, let's say that the
dog *was* a little stressed, okay? So what? What dog gets through life
without some stress? Teaching a dog how to cope with stress is what
good dog trainers do. For example, field-trial training can be very
stressful, yet field-trial dogs learn to *thrive* on it.

There was even a follow-up episode, where he visited the teacher (and
her GD) in her classroom, on some anniversary, I think. And the dog
was about as normal as I've ever seen a GD act on slippery floors. But
there was no hesitation whatsoever when his owner walked him up and
down the floor. The teacher was tickled pink.

I think Miller is way off base here. I think she's way off base about
a lot of things, of course.

Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior, a
concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a description
of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with his pack of dogs
every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of Southern California,
followed by afternoons spent rollerblading with those same dogs, 10 at
a time, on the streets around his training center.


Again, that's his shtick. Why throw the baby out with the bath water?

One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it gives the
dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog owners can spend six
hours a day exercising their dogs?


Very few. But I've never heard him suggest that everyone *has* to do
that. The 45 minutes of walking their dog daily? Yes.

And that's what those owners should be doing, at last the examples
that I observed.

How many can project
"calm-assertive energy"?


How many can project "calm assertive energy" if they never get to see
what it looks like???

The danger of Cesar's Way is that it
assures owners that quick fixes and easy answers lie in the hands of a
smiling man with the elusive calm-assertive energy.


Most of the episodes I've seen were susceptible to "quick fixes." Not
every behavior modification requires months and months of intensive
therapy (as many behaviorists would like you to believe).

For example, the whirling dervish of a dog that spun around in circles
on a walk, every time a car or pedestrian went by.

Solution: Don't let him do that!

He showed the owner how to easily preempt those spins with
distractions and proper leash handling.

Presto! No more whirling dervish.

Why would anyone ever want to make that anymore complicated than
necessary???

I just don't get it.

In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity of life,
where solutions are often not quick and easy,


But sometimes they are!

Thanks for the info, Lynn!


--
Handsome Jack Morrison
  #17  
Old July 8th 06, 06:00 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
TaraG
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 503
Default The Dog Whisperer


"montana wildhack" wrote in message
news:2006070812425475249-montana@wildhackcominvalid...

We can imagine that Cesar complicates the life of trainers, but we like
seeing the happy endings where people are taught how to work with their
dogs and then after they make an effort to work with their dogs, their
dogs' behavior improves!


Yeah, he does have the "complicating" effect.

Very recently, one of our trainers (an aggression specialist of over 30
years) was working with a dog in my neighborhood. Dog was lunging at other
dogs on the street, so the owners decided it was time to get help. Many
years ago, this trainer used to use compulsion based techniques (similar to
the ones I understand Cesar uses now), but she has elected to use a more
reinforcement based approach. She was in the middle of working with the dog,
and about to reward it for turning its focus *away* from the trigger when a
professional dog walker on the block started yelling at her "That's
WRONG!!!! Cesar Milan would NEVER do it that way! You CLEARLY don't know
what you're doing!!"

The trainer had the presence of mind to maintain her focus solely on the dog
she was working with, rather than lose the training moment, but she was
seriously tempted to go smack the walker in the head.

I've had plenty of people try to interrupt my classes to tell me I'm
teaching something "wrong" because "that's not how The Dog Whisperer teaches
it". Thankfully, their own dogs are rarely well trained enough to cause my
students to question how we're doing things.

I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training, but
the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his ego,
and help for those he meets with in person.

Tara


  #18  
Old July 8th 06, 06:06 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Handsome Jack Morrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,772
Default The Dog Whisperer

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 17:00:30 GMT, "TaraG"
wrote:

"montana wildhack" wrote in message
news:2006070812425475249-montana@wildhackcominvalid...

We can imagine that Cesar complicates the life of trainers, but we like
seeing the happy endings where people are taught how to work with their
dogs and then after they make an effort to work with their dogs, their
dogs' behavior improves!


Yeah, he does have the "complicating" effect.

Very recently, one of our trainers (an aggression specialist of over 30
years) was working with a dog in my neighborhood. Dog was lunging at other
dogs on the street, so the owners decided it was time to get help. Many
years ago, this trainer used to use compulsion based techniques (similar to
the ones I understand Cesar uses now), but she has elected to use a more
reinforcement based approach. She was in the middle of working with the dog,
and about to reward it for turning its focus *away* from the trigger when a
professional dog walker on the block started yelling at her "That's
WRONG!!!! Cesar Milan would NEVER do it that way! You CLEARLY don't know
what you're doing!!"


Isn't your anger a little misdirected there? Why blame Millan??? Why
not blame the walker instead?

sigh

[...]
I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training,


And for that you should be grateful. Not spiteful.

the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his ego,
and help for those he meets with in person.


Aah.

The Green-Eyed Monster makes an appearance.

sigh

--
Handsome Jack Morrison
  #19  
Old July 8th 06, 06:13 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
TaraG
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 503
Default The Dog Whisperer


"Handsome Jack Morrison" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 17:00:30 GMT, "TaraG"
wrote:

"montana wildhack" wrote in message
news:2006070812425475249-montana@wildhackcominvalid...

We can imagine that Cesar complicates the life of trainers, but we like
seeing the happy endings where people are taught how to work with their
dogs and then after they make an effort to work with their dogs, their
dogs' behavior improves!


Yeah, he does have the "complicating" effect.

Very recently, one of our trainers (an aggression specialist of over 30
years) was working with a dog in my neighborhood. Dog was lunging at other
dogs on the street, so the owners decided it was time to get help. Many
years ago, this trainer used to use compulsion based techniques (similar
to
the ones I understand Cesar uses now), but she has elected to use a more
reinforcement based approach. She was in the middle of working with the
dog,
and about to reward it for turning its focus *away* from the trigger when
a
professional dog walker on the block started yelling at her "That's
WRONG!!!! Cesar Milan would NEVER do it that way! You CLEARLY don't know
what you're doing!!"


Isn't your anger a little misdirected there? Why blame Millan??? Why
not blame the walker instead?


Not everyone sees things as black and white as you assume they do.

Please point out where I said there was anger at him? Otherwise, you're just
exercising your strawman muscle again.

I clearly stated that any "anger" felt was, in fact, directed towards the
walker. Nice spin, though.

sigh


Oh whatever.

[...]
I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training,


And for that you should be grateful. Not spiteful.


I'm not being "spiteful"....though you've already made up your mind and
flexing your strawman muscles, so no point in trying to convince you
otherwise.

the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his
ego,
and help for those he meets with in person.


Aah.

The Green-Eyed Monster makes an appearance.


Not really. There have been dog training shows that I really liked. Not
many, but when I like one I recommend it wholeheartedly.

But keep on spinning anything that doesn't mesh with what you think. It
suits your temperament, Jack.

sigh


Again, whatever.

Tara


  #20  
Old July 8th 06, 06:34 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Handsome Jack Morrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,772
Default The Dog Whisperer


On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 17:13:06 GMT, "TaraG"
wrote:

[]
Isn't your anger a little misdirected there? Why blame Millan??? Why
not blame the walker instead?


Not everyone sees things as black and white as you assume they do.


What exactly does that mean, as it relates to what I actually said?

Please point out where I said there was anger at him? Otherwise, you're just
exercising your strawman muscle again.


Could it have been...let's see, the fact that your post reeked of
indignant sarcasm directed at Millan, etc?

It's not necessary for someone to say that they're angry, for them to
act and sound and be angry, you know.

Man has "evolved" (heh) to know how to quickly size up the intentions
of other animals by observing their body language, reading between the
lines they write, listening to the sounds they make, etc. Now, if we
could just do that with women, we'd be all set.

And if you're not actually angry at Millan (and his "complicating
effect"), I stand corrected.

So. Are you?

I clearly stated that any "anger" felt was, in fact, directed towards the
walker. Nice spin, though.

sigh


Oh whatever.


Maybe it wasn't as clear as it could have been?

[...]
I think he has a real chance to help the public to understand training,


And for that you should be grateful. Not spiteful.


I'm not being "spiteful"....though you've already made up your mind and
flexing your strawman muscles, so no point in trying to convince you
otherwise.


You should look up the definition of straw man again. Apparently
you've forgotten it. Again.

the impact has ended up being not much more than a Grand Stroke for his
ego,
and help for those he meets with in person.


Aah.

The Green-Eyed Monster makes an appearance.


Not really. There have been dog training shows that I really liked. Not
many, but when I like one I recommend it wholeheartedly.


For example?

But keep on spinning anything that doesn't mesh with what you think. It
suits your temperament, Jack.

sigh


Again, whatever.


During any given week, how many times do you use the word "whatever"?

5,000?

10,000?

Okay.

50,000?

--
Handsome Jack Morrison
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dog Whisperer Book Recommendations? Mike Dog behavior 2 May 15th 06 12:34 AM
'Dog Whisperer' Sued by TV Producer: Breach Of Contract, Fraud,Animal Cruelty And Intentional Infliction Of Emotional Distress, Scott Dog health 0 May 7th 06 06:06 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unauthorized Upgrade)
Copyright ©2004-2024 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.