Children & dogs - how young is young?

In the pit bulls thread (I didn't mean to troll, honest!), the subject
has turned to the safety of leaving dogs alone with young children. For
those of you who think it's NOT a good idea ever to leave dogs and
children together unsupervised, how young is young? At first I was
nodding in agreement because I was picturing a toddler. Then I realized
how awful it would be if a 10 year old never walked the family dog by
himself.


Being the on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand sort of person that I am, I
asked myself how young we're talking about. 4? 8? 6? At what age is a
child who has grown up around dogs and knows how to be around them
gently deemed old enough to be alone with one who has been trained and
has no track record of erratic or violent behavior?


--Lia

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:
For
those of you who think it's NOT a good idea ever to leave dogs and
children together unsupervised, how young is young?

Presumably, if it were your kid you'd know him or her well
enough to be able to use your judgment and your knowledge
about 1) the dog, 2) the kid's experience with the dog, 3)
the quality of the kid's judgment, 4) etc.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Julia Altshuler spoke these words of wisdom in
:

In the pit bulls thread (I didn't mean to troll, honest!), the subject
has turned to the safety of leaving dogs alone with young children.
For
those of you who think it's NOT a good idea ever to leave dogs and
children together unsupervised, how young is young? At first I was
nodding in agreement because I was picturing a toddler. Then I
realized
how awful it would be if a 10 year old never walked the family dog by
himself.


Being the on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand sort of person that I am,
I
asked myself how young we're talking about. 4? 8? 6? At what age is
a
child who has grown up around dogs and knows how to be around them
gently deemed old enough to be alone with one who has been trained and
has no track record of erratic or violent behavior?


--Lia



Depending on the dog and child, I have no problems leaving a child alone
with the dog at any age that the child is trustworthy being left alone
by themselves.

there are children that are wonderful with animals, and there are
children that are hideous with animals. Same can be said for adults.


I feel it's simply a matter of chemistry between the unique individuals.

I worry more about the safety of my animals in the presence of a young
child than vice versa. I trust they would move away with eye pokes, ear
twisting, etc.

I will never forget walking back to the crate area at a dog show and a
12 year old boy was in the crate with my dog, biting his muzzle. TWELVE
YEARS OLD!
I heard a loud snap as the dogs skin snapped back when he released. It
never occurred to the dog to bite the boy for his abuse.

Obviously this boy at 12 was not trustworthy around any animal. Yet I
entrust my animals to be cared for in my absence by my 12 year old
neighbor kids who are very responsible, and wonderful with animals.

I don't think age can be defined. It's an individual thing.

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:

Then I realized
how awful it would be if a 10 year old never walked the family dog by
himself.

There's been a discussion elsewhere and a large consensus says no child
of ANY age should walk the family dog without an adult along. That's
right, not even a 17 year old. I wondered, what age does this person
magically become competent. If the "child" is 17 years 364 days, will
that magic 18th birthday suddenly make the "child" responsible and able
to handle anything that may come along with that dog? Some switched
their story and said it's about legal liability. Uh-huh.

I agree that toddlers should always be supervised with dogs and you've
got to know your dog and children when allowing unsupervised time. A
blanket statement including teenagers as "children" seems pretty narrow.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
There's been a discussion elsewhere and a large consensus says no child
of ANY age should walk the family dog without an adult along. That's
right, not even a 17 year old. I wondered, what age does this person
magically become competent. If the "child" is 17 years 364 days, will
that magic 18th birthday suddenly make the "child" responsible and able
to handle anything that may come along with that dog? Some switched
their story and said it's about legal liability. Uh-huh.

So what did they have to say about "legal liability" when it's a fourteen
year old babysitting a three year old toddler - say walking around the
neighborhood? And I presume that most people with small children have at
some point left their baby/toddler/child in the care of a babysitter who is
not over 18? Or at least gone into the next room and trusted a ten year
old to not abuse his six year old brother?

I agree that toddlers should always be supervised with dogs and you've
got to know your dog and children when allowing unsupervised time. A
blanket statement including teenagers as "children" seems pretty narrow.

I'm with you and Melinda and I'm guessing pretty much everyone else on this.
You know your dog. You know the child. You know the risks. Ultimately you
are responsible. Age is just one of the factors involved.

A neighbor of my daughter's lets her four year old walk their dog - big
dog, half-grown puppy but I forget what breed - around the neighborhood.
Parents are somewhere in the vicinity, perhaps even half-watching. The one
time DD approached them - out in the street of their cul-de-sac - the dog
was so excited to meet her that he lunged and jerked the kid totally off her
feet. Parents did not appear. So we have a four-year kid "walking" a dog
that weighs approximately what she does approached by an unknown adult. The
possibilities for disaster are numerous. DD tries to avoid them now - does
not want to feel responsible when the child gets so much as skinned knees
from being dragged by the dog.

There are a lot of grey areas but I think the extremes are black and white.
If the child is too young to be left in the room with an ironing board set
up and the iron cord hanging down, he's too young to be left with a dog. If
he's old enough to be babysitting small children, he's old enough. (And
anyone, at any age, who hasn't shown themselves to be non-abusive to
animals, clearly shouldn't be left alone.) In between those two points,
it's a judgment call.

Judy

on Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:13:08 GMT, Julia Altshuler
wrote:

In the pit bulls thread (I didn't mean to troll, honest!), the subject
has turned to the safety of leaving dogs alone with young children.
For those of you who think it's NOT a good idea ever to leave dogs and
children together unsupervised, how young is young? At first I was
nodding in agreement because I was picturing a toddler. Then I
realized how awful it would be if a 10 year old never walked the
family dog by himself.

Being the on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand sort of person that I am,
I asked myself how young we're talking about. 4? 8? 6? At what age
is a child who has grown up around dogs and knows how to be around
them gently deemed old enough to be alone with one who has been
trained and has no track record of erratic or violent behavior?

We have had dogs longer than we have had children, and I've done it
all... older dog with brand new babies, new puppy with toddlers, and
older children with dogs of all ages.

IME, the definitive answer is that "it depends," both on the child and
the dog. Very young children, toddlers and obviously babies should
*never* be left alone with a dog. Ever. Children and dogs who grow up
around each other and who have demonstrated good relationships should be
fine together from about the age of 7, which is "the age of reason." A
child younger than 7 (this is an average, of course) may still not be
consistent enough in his or her behavior to be trusted to make good
choices around the family dog. If the dog (or child) has behavioral
issues, then leaving them unsupervised may never be a good idea, but of
course that's a given.

I have let my daughter take Roxy and Isabel (separately) on walks up and
down the street, where we know all of our neighbors, and also over to my
mother's house, which is on the street behind us. She always has a
friend along, too, because I don't let her wander around alone. She's
now 12 and has been doing this since she was 10. She's probably ready
for longer walks, but I like to be in earshot, just in case, so they are
not allowed to go beyond certain limits (she also carries a cell phone).
There's plenty of interesting and fun things to do with the neighbors
and their dogs so it's not as boring as it might sound. She also puppy
sits for the Yorkie next door, and the child there puppy sat for Hendrix
the other day when I had to be gone for 3 hours. She is 12 also. They
both have parental backups when they are doing this. I think it's a
good practice, just in case something goes wrong.

Kids can be total space cadets up until the age of 20-something, or
super reliable much earlier, and so every situation needs to be
evaluated on an individual basis.

--
Lynne

on Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:27:12 GMT, "Judy" wrote:

A neighbor of my daughter's lets her four year old walk their dog -
big
dog, half-grown puppy but I forget what breed - around the
neighborhood. Parents are somewhere in the vicinity, perhaps even
half-watching. The one time DD approached them - out in the street of
their cul-de-sac - the dog was so excited to meet her that he lunged
and jerked the kid totally off her feet. Parents did not appear. So
we have a four-year kid "walking" a dog that weighs approximately what
she does approached by an unknown adult. The possibilities for
disaster are numerous. DD tries to avoid them now - does not want to
feel responsible when the child gets so much as skinned knees from
being dragged by the dog.

That is definitely a disaster waiting to happen. DD is smart, that kid's
parents are classic idiots.

--
Lynne

On Aug 1, 8:13 am, Julia Altshuler wrote:
In the pit bulls thread (I didn't mean to troll, honest!), the subject
has turned to the safety of leaving dogs alone with young children. For
those of you who think it's NOT a good idea ever to leave dogs and
children together unsupervised, how young is young? At first I was
nodding in agreement because I was picturing a toddler. Then I realized
how awful it would be if a 10 year old never walked the family dog by
himself.

Being the on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand sort of person that I am, I
asked myself how young we're talking about. 4? 8? 6? At what age is a
child who has grown up around dogs and knows how to be around them
gently deemed old enough to be alone with one who has been trained and
has no track record of erratic or violent behavior?

--Lia

==============
When small children visit me, if my dog leaves them alone and goes
quietly away and lies down, I leave her there, but I never leave the
children alone with her. If she does not go lie down somewhere out of
the way when they are around and insists on playing with them, I
either put her outside or put her in another room. When older
children (teens) come to visit and want to play with her, I tell them
that we don't allow any rough housing with her; that we don't want to
get her excited. They can pat her but no playing. I always keep her
in a mellow calm state of mind. I only let teens walk her when I am
with them; never alone. With me, it depends a lot on the age of the
children, the breed of dog, and the temperament of the dog what I will
allow and not allow.

Julia Altshuler wrote in
:

Being the on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand sort of person that I am,
I asked myself how young we're talking about. 4? 8? 6? At what age
is a child who has grown up around dogs and knows how to be around
them gently deemed old enough to be alone with one who has been
trained and has no track record of erratic or violent behavior?

For me, it depends on the child and the dog. I know some older children
I would not leave with dogs for various reasons. My own kids have been
around our own dogs without my supervision at least since they were
school aged, at least, but I don't really remember exact ages when I
wouldn't worry about them being in the same room without my being there.
It starts with seeing how they are together when you are with them all
the time and progresses to not being as attentive but still there to
going to the other room for a minute and so on until you don't even
think about who is in what room. Much as you do with leaving a child
alone without feeling you either have to be there or constantly checking
in on them to make sure they aren't getting into trouble. So
pinpointing an age at which they were at a particular point in the
process is difficult for me.

My kids have been allowed to take baths by themselves for years now,
also, but not when they were toddler size. They still are not allowed
to swim alone. Since they have been on swim teams and I know they swim
well, I don't have to be out there with them any more, but they have to
be together and I have to be at home. If I am not home, no swimming.
If I am home, they have to swim with a buddy. They can go to public
restrooms alone, but they have to tell me where they are going. I don't
want to freak out when I turn around and have no idea where a kid is so
if they aren't going to be where I can see them, they have to have the
courtesy and respect to tell me where they will be. I show the same
courtesy and respect to them since they don't like to turn around and
have no idea where I am in a crowded mall, either. That's also how I
handle stranger danger. I tell them they can't go anywhere with anyone
for any reason without telling me where they are going. Works better
for me than trying to make them afraid of strangers, especially when so
many kids are hurt by people they know and are duped by strangers who
are good at not seeming strange.

Paula

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
. ..
In the pit bulls thread (I didn't mean to troll, honest!), the subject has
turned to the safety of leaving dogs alone with young children. For those
of you who think it's NOT a good idea ever to leave dogs and children
together unsupervised, how young is young? At first I was nodding in
agreement because I was picturing a toddler. Then I realized how awful it
would be if a 10 year old never walked the family dog by himself.


Being the on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand sort of person that I am, I
asked myself how young we're talking about. 4? 8? 6? At what age is a
child who has grown up around dogs and knows how to be around them gently
deemed old enough to be alone with one who has been trained and has no
track record of erratic or violent behavior?


I leave the Monk and Tok alone briefly without any concern (i only briefly
leave Monk alone in a room). Tok is not a dog who would consider using his
teeth under any circumstance except those too horrific to speak of. The
Monk is pretty well dog trained, although he occasionally wants to lie or
sit on Tok and we try to discourage him from this behavior- for Tok's sake -
who wants a 2 year old lying on your back?

As Monk gets older and more reliable, I'll feel very confident leaving
Toklat alone in a room with him.

However, Monk is the reason I think we will hold off on considering another
dog. I need a dog I can trust with Monk.