A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog breeds
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Cockapoos and puppy millers



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 16th 04, 09:28 PM
Scall0way
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Cockapoos and puppy millers

I got an email from my sister today that a co-worker of hers is
looking to buy a cockapoo puppy. To save time here is a cut-and-paste
from part of my sister's post:

*** Hi Deb, 'XXX' at the Y here is planning on getting a Cockapoo.
SHe contacted a woman who is the MIDDLEMAN and says she deals with the
breeders herself....So 'XXX' doesn't know for sure who the breeder is
but the woman is telling her the puppy will come from Missouri and
will
have papers, shots, a Vet report, etc. Plus, Carol has pictures of
the
parents...BUT feels she can ask more questions about the parents. THe
puppy is supposed to be in a small family, farm environment which she
saw some pictures.

HOw will she know if this woman is LEGIT...who sounds very nice and
knowledgeable and educated.....SHe got into the bs. because she
herself was ripped off with puppy mills.

'XXX' got her name off the computer www.prestigous puppies.com ****

Well, this all set off alarm bells in my sister's mind, and shouted
"PUPPY MILL" to her, so she sent it off to me to ask my opinion, and
of course it shouted PUPPY MILL to me also.

The web site above seems to be a typo though. But keying in
www.prestigeous.puppies.com (which I suspect may be correct URL)
brings me to a web site that called www.puppyfind.com which sure looks
like a puppy mill broker's web site. What can you say about a site
that proclaims:
"1,000s of puppies for sale... Find the perfect puppy online!"

My sister's co-worker was starting to get cold feet and asked my
sister, who said she felt she had to tell her her true feelings, and
that it sounded suspicious to her. She said her friend wanted to know
what sort of questions she should ask the woman when she spoke to her
again.

Of course since she is looking for a mixed-breed dog I could not refer
her to the AKC breeder referral site, but this was the advice I sent
my sister:

*** It's hard to know what questions to ask, since cockapoos, by
definition, would never come from a reputable breeder. Some questions
I would ask a
1) How many different breeds do you deal with?
- If they offer lots of breeds that is a very bad sign, a certain
puppy mill broker. A large number is a huge red flag.

2) How many puppies do you have available right now?
- again a large number is bad, especially if they come from many
different breeds. Again, any breeder who cares for their breed would
never sell pups through a puppy broker, as they like to personally
know that their puppies are going to a good home.

3) Pick a breed, say a sheltie or a golden, and ask the person "If I
wanted a sheltie puppy (or a golden, a lab, whatever) how would you
recommend I find one?"
- if the person says they can get you a sheltie or lab or golden
puppy, again huge red flags.

4) Ask what they mean about the puppy having "papers" since a cockapoo
cannot possibly have "papers" since they are not a purebred.
- If they say the pup is registered with the Continental Kennel Club
this is another huge red flag. This is an organization that was
basically formed by
puppy millers who could not get recognition from the AKC.

5) Ask what the refund or return policy is if you find you can't keep
the pup for some reason.
- reputable breeders will *always* take one of their dogs back, at any
time, for any reason. As you recall that was in the contract we both
signed when we got our dogs from 'AAA' (a sheltie breeder). We also
has to sign an agreement to spay/neuter our dogs.

6) Ask about health screen for genetic defects.

7) Ask about the background and breeding of both parents, maybe ask to
see their pedigrees.

- They are likely to be puppy mill dogs, as decent breeders usually do
their best to insure that their pups go to homes that will *not* breed
them
indiscriminately.

That's about all I can think of off the top of my head, but this
situation really sounds suspicious to me. If 'XXX' really does want a
"poo" type dog I would look locally. Why not a pure-bred poodle? Or a
cocker? Or why not a pup from the animal shelter if she does not care
about a purebred? Probably most of those do not come from puppy mills,
but someones pet dog who accidentally had a litter because they did
not have her spayed. ****

So that was my advice, but I'm just a pet-owner myself and don't have
a whole lot of knowledge in this area. I'm just a happy dog owner of 2
shelties purchased from a breeder and one mutt who came from a local
animal rescue league. But I hate everything I know of puppy millers.
Does anyone know anything for sure about this web site above? It
certainly looks awful. I'd hate to see my sister's friend make a bad
mistake, though apparently she has already put down most of the money
for the puppy, which is non-refundable, which is also a bad sign IMHO!

Debbie
  #2  
Old April 17th 04, 03:56 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 16 Apr 2004 13:28:33 -0700 Scall0way whittled these words:
From:
To:
(Scall0way)
Subject: Cockapoos and puppy millers
Bcc: blackman
X-Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.breeds
In-Reply-To:
Organization: Tanith, Oso, & Tsuki Enterprises
X-No-Productlinks: yes

In article rec.pets.dogs.breeds you wrote:
*** Hi Deb, 'XXX' at the Y here is planning on getting a Cockapoo.
SHe contacted a woman who is the MIDDLEMAN and says she deals with the
breeders herself....So 'XXX' doesn't know for sure who the breeder is


Almost every breed club code of ethics prohibits placing puppies through a
"middleman". If a breeder actually cares about the welfare f their
puppies they need to be directly involved with the placement.

but the woman is telling her the puppy will come from Missouri and


One of the top puppy mill states.

will
have papers, shots, a Vet report, etc. Plus, Carol has pictures of


"papers" are meaningles. Even AKC papers aren't very meaningful.
"Papers" tell you nothing about quality. All "papers" do is serve as a
birth certificate, a means of researching the background of the dog.

the
parents...BUT feels she can ask more questions about the parents.


Of course she can ask. The answers won't have much to do with reality.
but it is an excellent sales technique.

THe
puppy is supposed to be in a small family, farm environment which she
saw some pictures.


I can take pictures of my parents ranch and claim it as my own. Picutres
only prove access to a location that looks like the picture. It says
nothing about what is five feet out of sight.

HOw will she know if this woman is LEGIT...who sounds very nice and
knowledgeable and educated.....


Well we already know she isn't but to play the game as if we didn't have
those clues ... the answer as to how you tell when a breeder is legit is
by networking. Any responsible breeder will be doing more with their dogs
than producing puppies. So find ou who they know and who knows them.
What is the person's reputation with the breed clubs? Yes, breed clubs
are full of politics and nastiness, but in some way shape or form a
responsible breeder is involved in dogs. They may be active in rescue,
they may be competing in dog sports or the conformation ring, they may be
involved with the health registry, or active in legislation watch.

SHe got into the bs. because she
herself was ripped off with puppy mills.


Nice line. But producing puppies should never be a business. Any breeder
who describes their own activities as a business is going to sacrafice the
best interests of the dogs for the almighty dollar.

*** It's hard to know what questions to ask, since cockapoos, by
definition, would never come from a reputable breeder. Some questions
I would ask a
1) How many different breeds do you deal with?
- If they offer lots of breeds that is a very bad sign, a certain
puppy mill broker. A large number is a huge red flag.


It is information you want to know, but I wouldn't trust the answer.

2) How many puppies do you have available right now?
- again a large number is bad, especially if they come from many
different breeds. Again, any breeder who cares for their breed would
never sell pups through a puppy broker, as they like to personally
know that their puppies are going to a good home.


It is information you want to know, but I wouldn't trust the answer.

3) Pick a breed, say a sheltie or a golden, and ask the person "If I
wanted a sheltie puppy (or a golden, a lab, whatever) how would you
recommend I find one?"
- if the person says they can get you a sheltie or lab or golden
puppy, again huge red flags.


Yes, this is much more likely to get an honest answer. They will be less
likely to sense an interogation if asked about a single breed or even two.

4) Ask what they mean about the puppy having "papers" since a cockapoo
cannot possibly have "papers" since they are not a purebred.


Sure they can, its just that the "papers" don't indicate the dog is
purebred. It is even possible, if unlikely, that the "papers" *could*
serve the same function of tracking a pedigree as happens in purebreds.
But the first thing the co-worker has to figure out is even with AKC
papers what do they mean, and what do they really say about the dog?
http://www.dog-play.com/akc.html

- If they say the pup is registered with the Continental Kennel Club
this is another huge red flag. This is an organization that was
basically formed by
puppy millers who could not get recognition from the AKC.


You don't need any red flags with the clain that a Cockapoo has papers.
Any registry that issues them is going to be suspect even if its not the
ConkKC. THere are at least half a dozen convenient registries to produce
"papers" for people who want them regardless of actual worth.

5) Ask what the refund or return policy is if you find you can't keep
the pup for some reason.
- reputable breeders will *always* take one of their dogs back, at any
time, for any reason. As you recall that was in the contract we both
signed when we got our dogs from 'AAA' (a sheltie breeder). We also
has to sign an agreement to spay/neuter our dogs.


Right. Asking about contract terms is what you'd do in any case.

6) Ask about health screen for genetic defects.


ACtually you need to be specfic, and to know what answers should be given.
For the Cockapoo it will be at least luxating patella, Legg Perthes, PRA
and hip dysplasia. Since epilepsy can't be tested for the pedigree must
be examined to determine how many known affected dogs exist on each side.

7) Ask about the background and breeding of both parents, maybe ask to
see their pedigrees.


Well you can ask. But it won't be meaningful unless you know how to
research whether the information is truth or lie.

- They are likely to be puppy mill dogs, as decent breeders usually do
their best to insure that their pups go to homes that will *not* breed
them
indiscriminately.


That's about all I can think of off the top of my head, but this
situation really sounds suspicious to me. If 'XXX' really does want a
"poo" type dog I would look locally. Why not a pure-bred poodle? Or a
cocker? Or why not a pup from the animal shelter if she does not care
about a purebred? Probably most of those do not come from puppy mills,
but someones pet dog who accidentally had a litter because they did
not have her spayed. ****


Most of the animal shelter dogs came from people who deliberatly bred
their pets.

So that was my advice, but I'm just a pet-owner myself and don't have
a whole lot of knowledge in this area. I'm just a happy dog owner of 2
shelties purchased from a breeder and one mutt who came from a local
animal rescue league. But I hate everything I know of puppy millers.
Does anyone know anything for sure about this web site above? It
certainly looks awful. I'd hate to see my sister's friend make a bad
mistake, though apparently she has already put down most of the money
for the puppy, which is non-refundable, which is also a bad sign IMHO!


Of course its a bad sign. You have quite enough knowledge to assess thee
situation correctly.

Beyond all the normal bad things about pupppy mills she really needs to
take a hard look at those contract terms. Usualy IF there is a warranty
it required returning the dog. Now who could love their dog and do that?
If she wants a dog, get one from someone not selling them as a business.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dog-play.com/shop2.html
  #3  
Old April 17th 04, 04:16 AM
Tee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Have your sister direct her friend to www.petfinder.org and tell her to do a
search on poodle, cocker spaniel and, without looking to verify, I believe
Petfinder actually lists Cockapoo as a searchable breed. They are in
shelters all over the country and its likely there's at least one in this
person's state.

--
Tara


  #4  
Old April 17th 04, 06:09 AM
Robin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Someone else posted that you can do a search for a cockapoo on
petfinder.com, which is correct. You can also do a search for a cockapoo
on www.1-800-save-a-pet.com, which is a really good site.

If she prefers to use a breeder, have her go to
http://www.cockapooclub.com. At first, I planned to get a cockapoo from
a breeder. I did a lot of research, spoke to many people, including
each and everyone involved with the cockapooclub wearing my b.s.
detector on full blast. I feel confident that this is a reputable
organization who take responsible, caring, breeding seriously.

There's all sorts of info out there how to determine if the breeder is
reputable or not, and everyone agrees you must be able to go to their
home (and not meet them somewhere offsite with the dog), walk around,
meet the puppy's parents, check for odor, cleanliness, look to see if
there are breed magazines around (indicating a true interest and love
for the breed), and many other tips.

It's up for grabs at this point which breed I'll get but it will be from
a rescue organization, a young or adult dog, at least this time around.
Robin




In article ,
(Scall0way) wrote:

I got an email from my sister today that a co-worker of hers is
looking to buy a cockapoo puppy. To save time here is a cut-and-paste
from part of my sister's post:

*** Hi Deb, 'XXX' at the Y here is planning on getting a Cockapoo.
SHe contacted a woman who is the MIDDLEMAN and says she deals with the
breeders herself....So 'XXX' doesn't know for sure who the breeder is
but the woman is telling her the puppy will come from Missouri and
will
have papers, shots, a Vet report, etc. Plus, Carol has pictures of
the
parents...BUT feels she can ask more questions about the parents. THe
puppy is supposed to be in a small family, farm environment which she
saw some pictures.

HOw will she know if this woman is LEGIT...who sounds very nice and
knowledgeable and educated.....SHe got into the bs. because she
herself was ripped off with puppy mills.

'XXX' got her name off the computer
www.prestigous puppies.com ****

Well, this all set off alarm bells in my sister's mind, and shouted
"PUPPY MILL" to her, so she sent it off to me to ask my opinion, and
of course it shouted PUPPY MILL to me also.

The web site above seems to be a typo though. But keying in
www.prestigeous.puppies.com (which I suspect may be correct URL)
brings me to a web site that called www.puppyfind.com which sure looks
like a puppy mill broker's web site. What can you say about a site
that proclaims:
"1,000s of puppies for sale... Find the perfect puppy online!"

My sister's co-worker was starting to get cold feet and asked my
sister, who said she felt she had to tell her her true feelings, and
that it sounded suspicious to her. She said her friend wanted to know
what sort of questions she should ask the woman when she spoke to her
again.

Of course since she is looking for a mixed-breed dog I could not refer
her to the AKC breeder referral site, but this was the advice I sent
my sister:

*** It's hard to know what questions to ask, since cockapoos, by
definition, would never come from a reputable breeder. Some questions
I would ask a
1) How many different breeds do you deal with?
- If they offer lots of breeds that is a very bad sign, a certain
puppy mill broker. A large number is a huge red flag.

2) How many puppies do you have available right now?
- again a large number is bad, especially if they come from many
different breeds. Again, any breeder who cares for their breed would
never sell pups through a puppy broker, as they like to personally
know that their puppies are going to a good home.

3) Pick a breed, say a sheltie or a golden, and ask the person "If I
wanted a sheltie puppy (or a golden, a lab, whatever) how would you
recommend I find one?"
- if the person says they can get you a sheltie or lab or golden
puppy, again huge red flags.

4) Ask what they mean about the puppy having "papers" since a cockapoo
cannot possibly have "papers" since they are not a purebred.
- If they say the pup is registered with the Continental Kennel Club
this is another huge red flag. This is an organization that was
basically formed by
puppy millers who could not get recognition from the AKC.

5) Ask what the refund or return policy is if you find you can't keep
the pup for some reason.
- reputable breeders will *always* take one of their dogs back, at any
time, for any reason. As you recall that was in the contract we both
signed when we got our dogs from 'AAA' (a sheltie breeder). We also
has to sign an agreement to spay/neuter our dogs.

6) Ask about health screen for genetic defects.

7) Ask about the background and breeding of both parents, maybe ask to
see their pedigrees.

- They are likely to be puppy mill dogs, as decent breeders usually do
their best to insure that their pups go to homes that will *not* breed
them
indiscriminately.

That's about all I can think of off the top of my head, but this
situation really sounds suspicious to me. If 'XXX' really does want a
"poo" type dog I would look locally. Why not a pure-bred poodle? Or a
cocker? Or why not a pup from the animal shelter if she does not care
about a purebred? Probably most of those do not come from puppy mills,
but someones pet dog who accidentally had a litter because they did
not have her spayed. ****

So that was my advice, but I'm just a pet-owner myself and don't have
a whole lot of knowledge in this area. I'm just a happy dog owner of 2
shelties purchased from a breeder and one mutt who came from a local
animal rescue league. But I hate everything I know of puppy millers.
Does anyone know anything for sure about this web site above? It
certainly looks awful. I'd hate to see my sister's friend make a bad
mistake, though apparently she has already put down most of the money
for the puppy, which is non-refundable, which is also a bad sign IMHO!

Debbie


--
Do not email if posting response. To email, replace x with 4
  #5  
Old April 17th 04, 05:55 PM
caroline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Scall0way" wrote
I got an email from my sister today that a co-worker of hers is
looking to buy a cockapoo puppy.


'XXX' got her name off the computer www.prestigous puppies.com ****


The web site above seems to be a typo though. But keying in
www.prestigeous.puppies.com (which I suspect may be correct URL)
brings me to a web site that called www.puppyfind.com which sure looks
like a puppy mill broker's web site.
again.


http://www.prestigiouspuppies.com

and

http://www.prestigious.puppies.com

seem to be two totally separate websites...are you sure she was referring to
the latter, rather than the former? Both are scary, and *stink* of puppy
mill ;o(


  #6  
Old April 17th 04, 05:59 PM
caroline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"caroline" wrote
"Scall0way" wrote
I got an email from my sister today that a co-worker of hers is
looking to buy a cockapoo puppy.


'XXX' got her name off the computer www.prestigous puppies.com ****


The web site above seems to be a typo though. But keying in
www.prestigeous.puppies.com (which I suspect may be correct URL)
brings me to a web site that called www.puppyfind.com which sure looks
like a puppy mill broker's web site.
again.


http://www.prestigiouspuppies.com

and

http://www.prestigious.puppies.com

seem to be two totally separate websites...are you sure she was referring

to
the latter, rather than the former? Both are scary, and *stink* of puppy
mill ;o(


Yup...looks like you were browsing the wrong website, the one with the
fullstop between the words. check this out, from the site without the
fullstop http://www.prestigiouspuppies.com/COCK-A-POOS.asp Look at the
prices...eeek!


  #7  
Old April 17th 04, 06:14 PM
Sue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


http://www.prestigiouspuppies.com


Are offering black "labradoodle"puppies ;-
***MOM IS AN AKC YELLOW LAB AND DAD IS AN AKC CAFE-AU-LAIT STANDARD POODLE
WITH CHAMPION BLOODLINES!!

Price: $1400



How do you get black puppies from that mating???????????



Sue


  #8  
Old April 17th 04, 06:27 PM
Tee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Sue" wrote in message
...

http://www.prestigiouspuppies.com


Are offering black "labradoodle"puppies ;-
***MOM IS AN AKC YELLOW LAB AND DAD IS AN AKC CAFE-AU-LAIT STANDARD POODLE
WITH CHAMPION BLOODLINES!!

Price: $1400



How do you get black puppies from that mating???????????


Yellow Labs carry either yellow/yellow or yellow/black genes IIRC. Not sure
about Poodles.

--
Tara


  #9  
Old April 17th 04, 07:05 PM
Liisa Sarakontu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Sue" wrote in
:

http://www.prestigiouspuppies.com

Are offering black "labradoodle"puppies ;-
***MOM IS AN AKC YELLOW LAB AND DAD IS AN AKC CAFE-AU-LAIT STANDARD
POODLE WITH CHAMPION BLOODLINES!!
How do you get black puppies from that mating???????????


Rather easily, it is just basic color genetics. Yellow Labradors are ee,
and most often B- like in this case. "Cafe au lait" means pale brown in
Poodles, and it is probably most often bb G- K- which means dominant black,
but black pigment is turned into brown, and G silvering/greying makes it
paler. All the pups have inherited E gene from Poodle parent, so ee yellow
pups are not born. And all have inherited B gene from Labrador parent, so
there are no brown pups.

And the Poodle parent is either just bb gg, and all the pups will really be
black. Or if it is Gg, it is possible that just the g gene has been passed
on. Or the pups are still so young that G pups haven't yet started to turn
grey and the seller thinks that they are black.

Liisa


  #10  
Old April 17th 04, 07:31 PM
Sue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks -I'm not used to a recessive black gene.

"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message
. ..
"Sue" wrote in
:

http://www.prestigiouspuppies.com

Are offering black "labradoodle"puppies ;-
***MOM IS AN AKC YELLOW LAB AND DAD IS AN AKC CAFE-AU-LAIT STANDARD
POODLE WITH CHAMPION BLOODLINES!!
How do you get black puppies from that mating???????????


Rather easily, it is just basic color genetics. Yellow Labradors are ee,
and most often B- like in this case. "Cafe au lait" means pale brown in
Poodles, and it is probably most often bb G- K- which means dominant

black,
but black pigment is turned into brown, and G silvering/greying makes it
paler. All the pups have inherited E gene from Poodle parent, so ee yellow
pups are not born. And all have inherited B gene from Labrador parent, so
there are no brown pups.

And the Poodle parent is either just bb gg, and all the pups will really

be
black. Or if it is Gg, it is possible that just the g gene has been passed
on. Or the pups are still so young that G pups haven't yet started to turn
grey and the seller thinks that they are black.

Liisa




 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unauthorized Upgrade)
Copyright ©2004-2024 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.