The first thing we do, let's kill all the... academics!

"cshenk" wrote in message
...
"Alison" wrote

Petrol is £1.35 ($2.26) a litre in London. (

True. Europe in general has some of the highest prices but it's mostly
due to taxes.

Yes I know, I just wanted to have a moan ! G
Ali

On 4/30/2011 8:13 AM, cshenk wrote:

At 10%, it burns clean and has very little effect on milage. When
you start edging to E-85, you need some sort of special car adaptions
though I know little about them.

That's a huge lie and all you need do is check your actual mileage to
realize that. The mileage goes down at least 20% when ethanol is added
at up to 10%. It also screws up older cars, most generators and lawn
mowers and lots more.

"Dogman" wrote in message
...

Yes, older cars will start to have serious mechanical problems
burning E-15. And who drives older cars? The poor, of course!
Obama recently told a guy on TV who complained about high gas
prices to just go out and buy a new car that got better mileage.
Yeah, riiiight, a guy who's having trouble affording gas for his
clunker is going to go out and buy a new $40,000 car, just to get
better mileage! Sure he is. What planet does this guy come from?
It can't be this one.

Only in America have car companies constantly boosted horsepower and
encouraged aggressive, competitive driving when gas prices were more
"affordable". The fat oil cats have every reason to increase consumption and
maximize their profits during the ten or twenty years they will still be
alive. Screw the next generation. Energy, automotive, and trucking lobbies
have conspired to obtain obscene tax breaks and subsidies while effectively
diminishing more efficient rail and public transportation, which are highly
developed and widely used in Europe and elsewhere.

There is no reason why a poor person can't shell out $4000 for a used car as
I did for my 1999 Saturn which averages 35 MPG. And any additional
maintenance it may need will support my local mechanic and auto supply
stores. Very often "poor" people make stupid decisions when they purchase
things, and their welfare money goes toward lottery tickets, alcohol,
tobacco, drugs, and unnecessary luxuries such as bottled water, fast food,
expensive new clothes, and fancy electronics.

Like it or believe it or not, there is a major crisis which is about to
devastate the economy of the US as it has in other countries, where deficit
spending and excessive consumption have caused devaluation of currency and
major hardships. We are about to experience a culture shock unlike anything
we have seen since the Great Depression, and our standard of living will
come to be more on par with the rest of the world. Our resources are finite
and our greed is infinite. The realities of the earth trump all the
"business as usual" plans of the human inhabitants. Of course, those in
power and seeking power dare not reveal the truth, and instead balance on
the precipice of denial. Our economy has been fabricated from the concept of
continued growth, but it cannot continue, and when it levels off or
declines, the entire Ponzi scheme will crumble and fall.

Here is something to consider:
http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pr...VD/LPSIM452/PR

Paul and Muttley

"Char" wrote in message
m...
On 4/30/2011 8:13 AM, cshenk wrote:

At 10%, it burns clean and has very little effect on milage. When you
start edging to E-85, you need some sort of special car adaptions though
I know little about them.

That's a huge lie and all you need do is check your actual mileage to
realize that. The mileage goes down at least 20% when ethanol is added at
up to 10%. It also screws up older cars, most generators and lawn mowers
and lots more.
The research tested unleaded gasoline, a 10% ethanol blend (E10), a 20%
ethanol blend (E20), and a 30% ethanol blend (E30) in three late-model
vehicles. The Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, and Toyota Camry were not
flexible fuel vehicles, and no modifications were made to them for this
research. Care was taken to eliminate any human inputs that might render the
tests unscientific, including the use of a computerized data logger and
strict controls on the vehicles, fuel, and terrain.


Summary results:

Miles per gallon
The three vehicles averaged only 1.5% lower mileage with E10, 2.2% lower
mileage with E20, 5.1% lower mileage with E30, and increased mileage of 1.7%
when using the specially denatured E10 blend.

Cost per mile
Although the MPG of ethanol blends was slightly lower than the unleaded, the
cost per mile of operation was generally lower. Also, the higher the
concentrations of ethanol, the lower the cost per mile. Using the study's
average MPG, E10 is less expensive per mile than unleaded until ethanol's
cost is nearly 30 cents above unleaded. On a $20 bill, drivers can travel up
to 15 miles farther on ethanol-blended fuel than on straight unleaded.

On Sun, 1 May 2011 04:21:53 -0400, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message
.. .

Yes, older cars will start to have serious mechanical problems
burning E-15. And who drives older cars? The poor, of course!
Obama recently told a guy on TV who complained about high gas
prices to just go out and buy a new car that got better mileage.
Yeah, riiiight, a guy who's having trouble affording gas for his
clunker is going to go out and buy a new $40,000 car, just to get
better mileage! Sure he is. What planet does this guy come from?
It can't be this one.

Only in America have car companies constantly boosted horsepower and
encouraged aggressive, competitive driving when gas prices were more
"affordable".

Do you ever leave that hovel you live in? Have you never been to
Europe? Have you never driven on the autobahns of Germany? Have you
never been passed by a 500 hp Mercedes or 450 hp BMW doing 120 in
Germany? Or by a 650 hp Ferrari in Italy? If you want to see
competitive driving, try driving around Italy for a few days. It will
put new meaning to the term "competitive driving." Really, you
apparently know less about cars than you do dog training, and I
thought that was impossible.

The fat oil cats have every reason to increase consumption and
maximize their profits during the ten or twenty years they will still be
alive. Screw the next generation. Energy, automotive, and trucking lobbies
have conspired to obtain obscene tax breaks and subsidies while effectively
diminishing more efficient rail and public transportation, which are highly
developed and widely used in Europe and elsewhere.

Oh please. The car companies give the public what they want. Period.
That's the way it works in a FREE, capitalistic country. And the oil
companies don't get any tax breaks that other manufacturing and
industrial companies get, and still end up contributing tens of
billions of dollars to the government every year in taxes. Why don't
you whine about GE, who paid ZERO U.S. taxes this year?

There is no reason why a poor person can't shell out $4000 for a used car as
I did for my 1999 Saturn which averages 35 MPG.

Here's a few reasons: 1. 1999 Saturns don't average 35 MPG
(http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Saturn1999.shtml) 2. There
aren't many 1999 Saturns still available (that are still drivable);
the used car market is very tight right now because people don't want
to pay $40,000+ (or can't afford to pay $40,000+) for a new one.

Very often "poor" people make stupid decisions when they purchase
things, and their welfare money goes toward lottery tickets, alcohol,
tobacco, drugs, and unnecessary luxuries such as bottled water, fast food,
expensive new clothes, and fancy electronics.

Far more often, poor people are made poor by stupid government
policies, like policies that make them think that they can afford to
own a new home, when they can't, or put them out of work, by stupid
environmental and government policies (see: off-shore drilling,
mining, farming, etc.). Or by cronies of the president who send jobs
off-shore (see: GE and manufacturing wind turbines in China!).

Like it or believe it or not, there is a major crisis which is about to
devastate the economy of the US

Yes, and that "major crisis" is named Barack Obama, and Democrats
coming into power in 2004! They are a wrecking crew of unimaginable
proportions, and if we don't get them out of there soon, there won't
be any America left.

as it has in other countries, where deficit
spending and excessive consumption have caused devaluation of currency and
major hardships.

What in the **** do you think Obama and the Democrats are doing? They
are spending us into oblivion! The projected deficit for just this
year is 1.6 trillion dollars! We already have a national debt of 14+
trillion dollars (and increase of 5 trillion dollars since Obama took
office!) We have unsustainable Medicare and Medicaid programs,
unsustainable S.S., and now we might have an even more unsustainable
ObamaCare! Our currency is worthless, not thanks to consumption, but
thanks to the Fed printing money around the clock, and our prodigious
amounts of DEBT! How did we get that debt? By the GOVERNMENT SPENDING
like a bunch of drunken sailors on leave!

We are about to experience a culture shock unlike anything
we have seen since the Great Depression,

We've already seen that, and we'll keep seeing it until we get Obama
and the Democrats out of power!

And we can do that in November, 2012.







--
Dogman

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:48:15 -0400, Char
wrote:

On 4/30/2011 8:13 AM, cshenk wrote:

At 10%, it burns clean and has very little effect on milage. When
you start edging to E-85, you need some sort of special car adaptions
though I know little about them.

There's no cost-effective way to adapt older cars to E85.

That's a huge lie and all you need do is check your actual mileage to
realize that. The mileage goes down at least 20% when ethanol is added
at up to 10%. It also screws up older cars, most generators and lawn
mowers and lots more.

You bet. E85 will have catastrophic effects on older (than about 2007)
cars, mowers, boats, etc. They just weren't designed to run on it, and
will quickly break down.

But here's why E85 is so wrong:
David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has
calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on
ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11
acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of
food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production
and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one
gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only
77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce
ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make
one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.

Mr. Pimentel concluded that "abusing our precious croplands to grow
corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade
automobile fuels amounts to unsustainable subsidized food burning".
http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed....om/ethanol.htm

So not only does burning E85 consume more energy (overall), it burns
FOOD! FOOD that is desperately needed in other parts of the world! And
it raises the price of all kinds of foods that require corn to be made
(meat, cereals, sweeteners, etc.). Ethanol fuel is a government sop to
corn farmers. Period.

And it's unconscionable.

--
Dogman

"Dogman" wrote
Char wrote:
cshenk wrote:

At 10%, it burns clean and has very little effect on milage. When
you start edging to E-85, you need some sort of special car adaptions
though I know little about them.

There's no cost-effective way to adapt older cars to E85.

That was my understanding as well. Past E-10, you start to have problems.
Even E-10 has issues with marine vehicles (boats etc). I saw some specs on
boats and there's apparently things you can do to make it more workable but
I don't know enough engine mechanics to know if the sites were valid or not.

That's a huge lie and all you need do is check your actual mileage to
realize that. The mileage goes down at least 20% when ethanol is added
at up to 10%. It also screws up older cars, most generators and lawn
mowers and lots more.

You bet. E85 will have catastrophic effects on older (than about 2007)
cars, mowers, boats, etc. They just weren't designed to run on it, and
will quickly break down.

Correct, but we are talking E-10 (grin). E-10 is 10% ethanol for any not
sure on that. E-85 is 85% ethanol.

But here's why E85 is so wrong:
David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has
calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on
ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11
acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of
food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production
and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one
gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only
77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce
ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make
one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.

The reports I read have the BTU production more than the cost of making
ethanol for a net surplus. Yes, you *do* lose some because you have to
convert the corn to ethanol, but what i read had a net 'gain' of about 2/3
roughly over production costs.

Perhaps I hit the wrong sites? Then again, I was looking only at E-10.

Mr. Pimentel concluded that "abusing our precious croplands to grow
corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade
automobile fuels amounts to unsustainable subsidized food burning".
http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed....om/ethanol.htm

So not only does burning E85 consume more energy (overall), it burns
FOOD! FOOD that is desperately needed in other parts of the world! And
it raises the price of all kinds of foods that require corn to be made
(meat, cereals, sweeteners, etc.). Ethanol fuel is a government sop to
corn farmers. Period.

And it's unconscionable.

Dunno but short of going further in debt to have the governtment buy corn
then gift it to the nations who are starving, I don't see a way to get the
food there.

On Mon, 2 May 2011 17:13:30 -0400, "cshenk" wrote:

[...]
So not only does burning E85 consume more energy (overall), it burns
FOOD! FOOD that is desperately needed in other parts of the world! And
it raises the price of all kinds of foods that require corn to be made
(meat, cereals, sweeteners, etc.). Ethanol fuel is a government sop to
corn farmers. Period.

And it's unconscionable.

Dunno but short of going further in debt to have the governtment buy corn
then gift it to the nations who are starving, I don't see a way to get the
food there.

The usual way, in boats and planes. That's how we get it there when
other countries buy it, and that's how we get it there when we provide
it for free, in the form of aid.

All of which helps to drive the price of corn sky high, which affects
the price of many of the staples of the American diet. You wouldn't
believe the number of food products that are dependent on the price of
corn.

If we would stop burning corn for ethanol, and stop subsidizing its
refinement, our food prices would immediately come down, making it
more affordable for other countries to purchase corn from us (or for
us to give it to needy countries), and we'd save the cost of
subsidizing it.



--
Dogman

On 5/2/2011 7:51 PM, Dogman wrote:
On Mon, 2 May 2011 17:13:30 -0400, wrote:

[...]
So not only does burning E85 consume more energy (overall), it burns
FOOD! FOOD that is desperately needed in other parts of the world! And
it raises the price of all kinds of foods that require corn to be made
(meat, cereals, sweeteners, etc.). Ethanol fuel is a government sop to
corn farmers. Period.

And it's unconscionable.
Dunno but short of going further in debt to have the governtment buy corn
then gift it to the nations who are starving, I don't see a way to get the
food there.
The usual way, in boats and planes. That's how we get it there when
other countries buy it, and that's how we get it there when we provide
it for free, in the form of aid.

All of which helps to drive the price of corn sky high, which affects
the price of many of the staples of the American diet. You wouldn't
believe the number of food products that are dependent on the price of
corn.

Unfortunately most of that is in the form of high fructose corn syrup
which is a horrible and nasty way to add even more sugar into our diets.
I avoid processed foods because of it and soy which is also in almost
everything we eat.

If we would stop burning corn for ethanol, and stop subsidizing its
refinement, our food prices would immediately come down, making it
more affordable for other countries to purchase corn from us (or for
us to give it to needy countries), and we'd save the cost of
subsidizing it.