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#1
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Carbs cause arthritis
And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles? Grains, and grains are
carbs. A wheat gluten mechanism has been studied in rheumatoid arthritis patients. Careful observation revealed that wheat ingestion is followed within hours by increased joint swelling and pain. Little and his colleagues studied the mechanism, as it developed sequentially following gluten ingestion. Parke et al concurred with this explanation of the gut-arthritis link in their report of three patients with celiac disease and rheumatoid arthritis. The mechanism they postulated involves several stages: The digestive tract must be permeable to antigenic proteins or peptide fragments, derived from digested food. The food antigens appear in the blood stream and are bound by a specific antibody (probably of IgA or IgG, not IgE class), forming an antigen-antibody complex, a circulating immune complex (CIC). The antigen-antibody complexes activate the rest of the immune response, beginning with the release of mediators - serotonin is released from the blood platelets. Serotonin release causes "symptoms" as it circulates in the blood stream and enhances the deposition of CICs in joint tissues. Once in the joint, the immune complexes activate complement, which in turn damages cells and activates inflammation. Inflammation causes pain, swelling, stiffness, and loss of mobility. http://www.nutramed.com/arthritis/arthritisfa.htm |
#2
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Carbs cause arthritis
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote: And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles? So what's the percentage of kibbles that have a grain as a first ingredient? And why do I bother asking? You haven't been able to answer a question yet, and I know you plucked "most" out of the air. Anyway, "carbs cause arthritis" is every bit as well supported by the evidence as is the assertion that "the earth is getting colder." I continue to believe that you're paid by the dog food industry to make the raw food movement look like buffoons. -- Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community |
#3
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Carbs cause arthritis
Melinda Shore wrote:
In article , chardonnay9 wrote: And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles? So what's the percentage of kibbles that have a grain as a first ingredient? If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I just dunno about you. Many times the carbs are broken up into different ingredients so that they appear to be a small part of the ingredients when they indeed are a major part. Is this really news to you? It's been common knowledge for a long time now. And why do I bother asking? That is a very good question. Get a life! You haven't been able to answer a question yet, and I know you plucked "most" out of the air. Anyway, "carbs cause arthritis" is every bit as well supported by the evidence as is the assertion that "the earth is getting colder." I continue to believe that you're paid by the dog food industry to make the raw food movement look like buffoons. You manage to look like a buffoon just about any time you post Melinda. I'm so sorry you don't keep up with current information but don't blame me for your lack of knowledge. "Support for an intestinal origin of antigens comes from studies of patients whose joint symptoms have improved on the avoidance of certain foods antigens, and become worse on consuming them. These have included patients with both intermittent symptoms, palindromic rheumatism and more chronic disease." |
#4
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Carbs cause arthritis
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote: If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I just dunno about you. I'm well aware of ingredient splitting. But the only feeds I can think of in which grains are a primary ingredient are severals of the Dad's-branded feeds and Ol' Roy, while off the top of my head I can think of dozens in which grains are not the primary ingredient. Granted that's not a random sample, but at least it's a sample and it's more than you've offered. The word "most" has a specific meaning. Presumably you used it for a reason. My guess is that the reason is that you pulled it out of your nether orifice to advance your argument, irrespective of whether or not's actually true. -- Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community |
#5
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Carbs cause arthritis
chardonnay9 wrote: And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles? Grains, and grains are carbs. A wheat gluten mechanism has been studied in rheumatoid arthritis patients. Careful observation revealed that wheat ingestion is followed within hours by increased joint swelling and pain. Little and his colleagues studied the mechanism, as it developed sequentially following gluten ingestion. Parke et al concurred with this explanation of the gut-arthritis link in their report of three patients with celiac disease and rheumatoid arthritis. The mechanism they postulated involves several stages: The digestive tract must be permeable to antigenic proteins or peptide fragments, derived from digested food. The food antigens appear in the blood stream and are bound by a specific antibody (probably of IgA or IgG, not IgE class), forming an antigen-antibody complex, a circulating immune complex (CIC). The antigen-antibody complexes activate the rest of the immune response, beginning with the release of mediators - serotonin is released from the blood platelets. Serotonin release causes "symptoms" as it circulates in the blood stream and enhances the deposition of CICs in joint tissues. Once in the joint, the immune complexes activate complement, which in turn damages cells and activates inflammation. Inflammation causes pain, swelling, stiffness, and loss of mobility. http://www.nutramed.com/arthritis/arthritisfa.htm Hoo boy, Chard, this post fails on so many levels! Let's just start with the subject line: "Carbs cause arthritis." 1. "Carbs" are not the same as wheat gluten; the term "carbs" encompasses far more than wheat products, so using it this way is a gross over-generalization. 2. "cause" - presumes cause and effect has been demonstrated. It has not. Even if ingesting wheat gluten participated in inflammatory arthritis, it has not been demonstrated to be The Cause of it. It's far more complex than this. 3. "arthritis" Which type of arthritis? There are many, and the article deals only with rheumatoid arthritis. Your use of the term in this way suggests that carbs cause any or all forms of arthritis. So your subject line is guilty of inaccuracy and gross over-generalization. Let's look at your first line. "And what is the main ingredient in most kibbles? Grains, and grains are carbs." 1. You speak of "grains," but the article speaks specifically of wheat gluten, from only one type of grain. It does not mention rice, barley, corn, millet, or any of the other grains that may be used in kibble. 2. Grains contain carbohydrates; it's not correct to say that they "are" carbohydrates, because they contain so much more. Your assertion contains distortions and misinformation, and it extrapolates way beyond anything contained in the article you quote from. Between your subject and first line, your "logic" goes something like this: Carbs cause arthritis Grains are carbs Kibble contains grains Therefore kibble causes arthritis. Finally, that article. First, although it has the appearance of science, it doesn't actually provide the citations it seems to give. Could you provide me with the complete citations of the articles supposedly authored by Little and Parke? Second, it appears on a web site that is selling products alleged to relieve arthritis symptoms. Do you really think it's an unbiased report? Third, can you explain the differences between IgA, IgG, and IgE? And why is the release of serotonin by platelets relevant to the author's thesis that wheat gluten triggers an inflammatory response in joints? What "symptoms" does it "cause?" Thank you. FurPaw -- Don't believe everything that you think. To reply, unleash the dog. |
#6
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Carbs cause arthritis
Melinda Shore wrote:
In article , chardonnay9 wrote: If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I just dunno about you. I'm well aware of ingredient splitting. Coulda fooled me! But the only feeds I can think of in which grains are a primary ingredient are severals of the Dad's-branded feeds and Ol' Roy, while off the top of my head I can think of dozens in which grains are not the primary ingredient. What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis and that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble has carbs. All you want to do is fight over how much is in there instead of concentrating on the real problem. But that is typical Melinda. |
#7
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Carbs cause arthritis
In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote: What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis and that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble has carbs. I'm unclear on why you think that eliminating carbs from a dog's diet is healthy. It's not - carbohydrates are a necessary nutrient. Even in dogs they're a primary short-term energy source, and they're a primary energy source for the brain. And be that as it may, you still haven't provided any supporting evidence for your assertion that "carbs cause arthritis." Furpaw deserves kudos for having the patience to detail the myriad problems with your original post, and I'd love to see you address some of the issues she's raised. -- Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community |
#8
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Carbs cause arthritis
Melinda Shore wrote:
In article , chardonnay9 wrote: What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis and that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble has carbs. I'm unclear on why you think that eliminating carbs from a dog's diet is healthy. It's not - carbohydrates are a necessary nutrient. There are no statistics to back that up. Why? Because it's not true. There is no requirement for carbs in dogs. Why do you keep making stuff up? |
#9
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Carbs cause arthritis
chardonnay9 wrote:
Melinda Shore wrote: In article , chardonnay9 wrote: If you don't know by now that first ingredients are a joke, well, I just dunno about you. I'm well aware of ingredient splitting. Coulda fooled me! But the only feeds I can think of in which grains are a primary ingredient are severals of the Dad's-branded feeds and Ol' Roy, while off the top of my head I can think of dozens in which grains are not the primary ingredient. What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis Funny, that's not what you titled the thread. And, in the opposite direction, that's not what the research you yourself posted showed. Lazy, irresponsible posting, yet again. and that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble has carbs. You just wrote the nutritional equivalent of "and that a Moon circles most planets, and that all planets are low on oxygen" Um, yeah, ok. Both statements are about planets (food), the rest is a string of non sequitors. You keep on confusing carbs with grains. They're not the same thing. Those words are not interchangeable. All you want to do is fight over how much is in there instead of concentrating on the real problem. Um, you yourself, in the title of the thread AND in the only original parts of the post that you wrote misrepresent the "real problem" to begin with. Before any discussion can even take place, those aspects (i.e. your basic premise) have to be corrected. But that is typical of Chard. Hey Chard, you forgot to answer my question: since you are such a raw food fanatic, willing to blame non-raw foods for every ailment under the sun, how long have YOU been eating raw? If you're that hell bent on beating up other people for their choices on what they're feeding their dogs, I would think that you would *never* put unhealthy, cooked foods into your own digestive system. So.....I ask again....how long have you been eating raw yourself? If its not something you're willing to do yourself, then I have to assume you don't really believe in it *that* much. Its really easy to spout off about something you won't ever have to stick to yourself. Even some raw foodists have a description folks like you. Zealous dietary bigot. But since I doubt you're even a raw foordist when it comes to your *own* eating habits, I'm going to add "hypocrite" to that descriptor. |
#10
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Carbs cause arthritis
chardonnay9 wrote:
Melinda Shore wrote: In article , chardonnay9 wrote: What you are missing is the real point, that grains cause arthritis and that some amount of grains are in most dog foods, and that all kibble has carbs. I'm unclear on why you think that eliminating carbs from a dog's diet is healthy. It's not - carbohydrates are a necessary nutrient. There are no statistics to back that up. Why? Because it's not true. There is no requirement for carbs in dogs. Why do you keep making stuff up? You cut out the part where she challenged you to counter even ONE of the issues that Furpaw raised. In terms of "why do you keep making stuff up", let's start with "carbs cause arthritis", since what you posted didn't even support that assertion. |
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