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Breeders and Inbreeding - Any way to tell?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 11th 03, 01:35 PM
Mile Sullivan
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Default Breeders and Inbreeding - Any way to tell?

I personally know two breeders who severely inbreed their dogs and
then sell them. They actually will take a female from the litter,
breed her with her father until she can't produce any longer, and then
repeat the cycle with the next litter. The result: Both breeders have
sold dogs who later developed epilepsy, cancer, poor temperament and a
whole variety of other problems. This seems to be a wide spread
problem here in the northeast. If you ask these breeders about their
breeding practices, they will lie right to your face! Please, I'M NOT
SAYING ALL BREEDERS DO THIS BUT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

What really gets me is that some (I said SOME not ALL) of these
breeders are the same ones who try to force the AKC "limited"
registration or produce ridiculous contracts preventing you from
breeding your own dogs. I believe this is a way for them to stem
competition from new breeders rather than their "holier than thou"
attitude of claiming it's to prevent irresponsible breeding. Some of
these breeders also keep their dogs confined to small pens. They are
in fact miniature puppy mills; the same puppy mills they scream and
holler about.

Even more amazing is that these same inbred dogs are AKC registered!

I know another breeder who breeds labs and is very conscientious about
it. He told me that inbreeding is such a problem in this area that he
had to drive out to the midwest to find dogs he considered to be good
quality lineage so he could breed quality puppies. So far, not a
singly puppy has had any problems that he knows of. I know this guy
quite well and believe he really does breed a high caliber lab. (His
litters are not frequent and he has a long waiting list so I'm not
going to give out his name in case you wanted to ask)

So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred? You can't trust the unscrupulous
breeders to tell the truth, and you can't rely on the AKC to know,
what other options are there? I've found references from other people
to be unreliable. I have heard that there is DNA technology for dogs
now. Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?

Something really has to be done about this. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike
  #2  
Old November 11th 03, 02:25 PM
Diana
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"Mile Sullivan" wrote in message
m...

[snip rant]

So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred? You can't trust the unscrupulous
breeders to tell the truth, and you can't rely on the AKC to know,
what other options are there? I've found references from other people
to be unreliable. I have heard that there is DNA technology for dogs
now. Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?

Something really has to be done about this. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike


I'm not a breeder but I've not long bought a puppy after a fair bit of
research so I figure I'm qualified enough to answer some part of your
question.... the answer is really pretty much down to common sense.

If you ask questions about health, health testing, why the pups were bred,
how often they are bred etc and the person is honest and open with you ~ and
the waiting list is always a good sign, if its genuine. ~ then you might
want to move on to the next step and go to meet their dogs.

If the dogs are happy, comfortable with people and the breeders are
obviously proud of them, talk to them and the dogs are responsive and
obedient to their owners commands without looking obviously over or under
keen (breed specific traits aside regarding human attentiveness), you've got
a better chance that these dogs enjoy a loving family life.

If you don't find these things apply, then just don't buy ~ simple.

Diana



  #3  
Old November 11th 03, 02:35 PM
Tee
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Mike, inbreeding or line-breeding in dogs is not only normal but acceptable.
When people think of inbreeding they think of human/human where defects are
likely to happen. That's not the case with dogs. Many breeders line breed
to either try and double up on specific traits they can't find available
elsewhere or to keep specific traits out that would come in from outside
lines. A breeder who sells on limited registration does so to prevent
buyers from breeding the puppies unless they intend to show them and prove
that they are worthy (in terms of conformation) to be bred. They're keeping
their pups from going to homes where they'll be little more than
money-makers, overbred, and under-loved. IMO any breeder who sells on
limited registration or s/n contracts should be given a large pat on the
back for doing something to help decrease the number of unwanted pets in the
world.

--
Tara


  #4  
Old November 11th 03, 03:04 PM
Mary Healey
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Mile Sullivan wrote:
So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred?


Look at a 3-generation pedigree.

...I have heard that there is DNA technology for dogs
now. Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?


No.


--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

  #5  
Old November 11th 03, 03:37 PM
Kathleen
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Mile Sullivan wrote:

I personally know two breeders who severely inbreed their dogs and
then sell them. They actually will take a female from the litter,
breed her with her father until she can't produce any longer, and then
repeat the cycle with the next litter. The result: Both breeders have
sold dogs who later developed epilepsy, cancer, poor temperament and a
whole variety of other problems. This seems to be a wide spread
problem here in the northeast. If you ask these breeders about their
breeding practices, they will lie right to your face! Please, I'M NOT
SAYING ALL BREEDERS DO THIS BUT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

What really gets me is that some (I said SOME not ALL) of these
breeders are the same ones who try to force the AKC "limited"
registration or produce ridiculous contracts preventing you from
breeding your own dogs. I believe this is a way for them to stem
competition from new breeders rather than their "holier than thou"
attitude of claiming it's to prevent irresponsible breeding. Some of
these breeders also keep their dogs confined to small pens. They are
in fact miniature puppy mills; the same puppy mills they scream and
holler about.

Even more amazing is that these same inbred dogs are AKC registered!

I know another breeder who breeds labs and is very conscientious about
it. He told me that inbreeding is such a problem in this area that he
had to drive out to the midwest to find dogs he considered to be good
quality lineage so he could breed quality puppies. So far, not a
singly puppy has had any problems that he knows of. I know this guy
quite well and believe he really does breed a high caliber lab. (His
litters are not frequent and he has a long waiting list so I'm not
going to give out his name in case you wanted to ask)

So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred? You can't trust the unscrupulous
breeders to tell the truth, and you can't rely on the AKC to know,
what other options are there? I've found references from other people
to be unreliable. I have heard that there is DNA technology for dogs
now. Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?

Something really has to be done about this. Any ideas?


As an earlier poster pointed out, "in-breeding", or rather, line
breeding is a pretty common, widely accepted practice. It's also the
only way to weed out undesirable recessive genes. Reputable breeders
make no bones about it - it's not a secret. If this is something that
bothers you, you should be looking at the parents' pedigrees. If the
same names keep popping up on both sides of the family, the pups are
line-bred. If the breeder doesn't have the parents' pedigrees available
or refuses to show them to you, that's a major red flag.
Obviously this won't protect you from the occasional fruitcake who is
unscrupulous enough to fudge the dogs' documentation, but checking
references and reputations should be enough to smoke out these characters.
As to your complaint about line-breeding breeders with restrictive
contracts, aren't you sort of contradicting yourself? If genetics
behind these dogs is so faulty, why would you even consider breeding one
of them?

Kathleen Hansen
Z-Control Skid Boots
Leg armor for gonzo dogs!
http://webpages.charter.net/dhfm/ZControl.html

  #6  
Old November 11th 03, 10:09 PM
Christy
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"Mile Sullivan" wrote in message
m...
I personally know two breeders who severely inbreed their dogs and
then sell them. They actually will take a female from the litter,
breed her with her father until she can't produce any longer, and then
repeat the cycle with the next litter.


Those sound like really lousy breeders.

The result: Both breeders have
sold dogs who later developed epilepsy, cancer, poor temperament and a
whole variety of other problems. This seems to be a wide spread
problem here in the northeast. If you ask these breeders about their
breeding practices, they will lie right to your face! Please, I'M NOT
SAYING ALL BREEDERS DO THIS BUT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.


I'd say very few breeders do this, and no responsible breeders would
consider breeding a dog nonstop until they can't produce any more, or
breeding dogs chock-full of health problems. Unfortunately, irresponsible
breeders are the vast majority.


What really gets me is that some (I said SOME not ALL) of these
breeders are the same ones who try to force the AKC "limited"
registration or produce ridiculous contracts preventing you from
breeding your own dogs.


Huh. I find both those things to be the height of responsibility, and I
would not consider buying a puppy from a breeder who did not do this with
their pet dogs. Why in the world would a responsible breeder who worked hard
for years, researching lines, doing health testings, showing/working their
dogs, etc. with the goal of breeding only the best, allow their
non-breeding -quaality dogs to be bred by some yokel for a cash crop? That
is what is ridiculous!

I believe this is a way for them to stem
competition from new breeders


What is this competition thing I hear about? There aren't enough responsible
breeders to fill the demands of the puppy market (because, of course,
responsible breeders don't breed to fill demands!) and I highly doubt that a
responsible breeder with well-bred puppies would have a problem placing
their puppies because some Joe Schmoe with two backyard dogs has litter
after litter of poorly bred pups. Educated people would rather wait for the
well bred dog than buy a BYB puppy just because it is there for the taking.

rather than their "holier than thou"
attitude of claiming it's to prevent irresponsible breeding. Some of
these breeders also keep their dogs confined to small pens. They are
in fact miniature puppy mills; the same puppy mills they scream and
holler about.


Lots of breeders keep their dogs confined. If you have multiple intact dogs
and bitches and don't have a way to confine your dogs, you will have serious
problems! The difference is that puppy mill dogs don't ever get out - no
human contact, no training and socializing, no life at all. Sure, there are
probably some breeders who claim to be responsible who raise their dogs that
way, but the truly responsible ones do not.


Even more amazing is that these same inbred dogs are AKC registered!


Why is that amazing? Registration is nothing more than a certificate of
parentage, and if the parents are registered and the litter is registered,
it isn't amazing to register a puppy. The AKC cannot police breeders who
linebreed or inbreed - those are breeding decisions that the breeder is
responsible for, and if a puppy buyer doesn't like it, they vote with their
feet.


I know another breeder who breeds labs and is very conscientious about
it. He told me that inbreeding is such a problem in this area that he
had to drive out to the midwest to find dogs he considered to be good
quality lineage so he could breed quality puppies. So far, not a
singly puppy has had any problems that he knows of. I know this guy
quite well and believe he really does breed a high caliber lab. (His
litters are not frequent and he has a long waiting list so I'm not
going to give out his name in case you wanted to ask)


It sounds like you don't know what inbreeding and linebreeding are, and you
are in an area rife with puppy mills and backyard breeders. You might want
to do some research on what a responsible breeder is, so you will be able to
recognize one when you see it (hint - no one who breeds just to produce
puppies will fit that description, including your lab breeder friend.)


So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred? You can't trust the unscrupulous
breeders to tell the truth,


Don't patronize the unscrupulous breeders and you'll be fine.

and you can't rely on the AKC to know,
what other options are there? I've found references from other people
to be unreliable. I have heard that there is DNA technology for dogs
now. Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?

I don't think you comprehend what quality is when referring to dogs. Just
having parents that are unrelated does not equal quality. Neither does
having parents who are related, for that matter.
And no, there is no way to DNA test for inbreeding. You're going to have to
1) learn what inbreeding and linebreeding are and how they are used to set
type in breeds; 2) accept that most responsible breeders practice some level
of inbreeding/linebreeding and determine what you're comfortable with and c)
find a breeder you can trust who is responsible (even if they sell you a
puppy that you have to spay/neuter so you can't make your own l'il puppy
mill!)

Christy


  #7  
Old November 12th 03, 01:54 AM
Karen Wineberg
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Default

My boss used to breed Goldens. She quit because of the lack of responsilbe
owners in the area. The other dog groomer I work with still breeds his dogs.
The best suggestion they have ever given me was this: if the breeder won't
let the puppy be examined by someone who knows what they are doing (IE
another breeder or a vet) then you don't want the puppy. Also, if the people
you know are puppy millers then they need turned in.
"Mile Sullivan" wrote in message
m...
I personally know two breeders who severely inbreed their dogs and
then sell them. They actually will take a female from the litter,
breed her with her father until she can't produce any longer, and then
repeat the cycle with the next litter. The result: Both breeders have
sold dogs who later developed epilepsy, cancer, poor temperament and a
whole variety of other problems. This seems to be a wide spread
problem here in the northeast. If you ask these breeders about their
breeding practices, they will lie right to your face! Please, I'M NOT
SAYING ALL BREEDERS DO THIS BUT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

What really gets me is that some (I said SOME not ALL) of these
breeders are the same ones who try to force the AKC "limited"
registration or produce ridiculous contracts preventing you from
breeding your own dogs. I believe this is a way for them to stem
competition from new breeders rather than their "holier than thou"
attitude of claiming it's to prevent irresponsible breeding. Some of
these breeders also keep their dogs confined to small pens. They are
in fact miniature puppy mills; the same puppy mills they scream and
holler about.

Even more amazing is that these same inbred dogs are AKC registered!

I know another breeder who breeds labs and is very conscientious about
it. He told me that inbreeding is such a problem in this area that he
had to drive out to the midwest to find dogs he considered to be good
quality lineage so he could breed quality puppies. So far, not a
singly puppy has had any problems that he knows of. I know this guy
quite well and believe he really does breed a high caliber lab. (His
litters are not frequent and he has a long waiting list so I'm not
going to give out his name in case you wanted to ask)

So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred? You can't trust the unscrupulous
breeders to tell the truth, and you can't rely on the AKC to know,
what other options are there? I've found references from other people
to be unreliable. I have heard that there is DNA technology for dogs
now. Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?

Something really has to be done about this. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike



  #8  
Old November 12th 03, 02:07 AM
Tirya
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A little OT, and I'll admit that my breeding knowledge is from animals other
than dogs, but is father/daughter breeding accepted as common practice in the
dog world? Or do responsible line/inbreeders try to only come as close as
grandfather/granddaughter?

Just curious,
Tirya
--
TDC Inca Jeeper
A dirty Jeep is a happy Jeep.



  #9  
Old November 12th 03, 03:23 AM
Andrea
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"Mile Sullivan" wrote in message
m...
I personally know two breeders who severely inbreed their dogs and
then sell them. They actually will take a female from the litter,
breed her with her father


Not /necessarily/ a horrible thing to do, mind you, provided it is done by
someone with the knowledge of the line, their dogs, proper health testing,
etc. It may also vary from breed to breed in terms of its acceptibility.
Linebreeding, (a step out from what is commonly called inbreeding in dogs eg
father/daughter, brother/sister, etc) is very common and often preferred.

until she can't produce any longer,


Ugh.

and then
repeat the cycle with the next litter.


Ugh, ugh, ugh.

What really gets me is that some (I said SOME not ALL) of these
breeders are the same ones who try to force the AKC "limited"
registration or produce ridiculous contracts preventing you from
breeding your own dogs.


This is a GOOD thing. Sorry, no sympathy from me. I would be suspect of any
breeder who didn't. Any non-show pup from me goes out this way. Heck, my
show pups go out with a contract and a co-ownership.

I believe this is a way for them to stem
competition from new breeders rather than their "holier than thou"
attitude of claiming it's to prevent irresponsible breeding.


Well, your welcome to your opinion. You might be right in some cases. Your
characterization of responsible breeders doesn't work in your favor here.
The reason doesn't matter, because less dogs is a good thing. There is no
need for the average pet owner to breed a dog, ~especially~ if it's from the
folks described above, assuming you've done so accurately. You can't have it
both ways here. If you think there's a problem with their breeding
practices, why would you want to breed the offsping? This is a GOOD thing.

If you are interested in becoming involved with purebred dogs, you intend to
show/work your dogs and health screen, most breeders are more than happy to
work with you. But you have to be willing to show your dedication and
sincerity. Joe Blow pet owner has neither the desire to dedicate the time to
learn what is needed to breed dogs well, nor is he usually equiped with it
at the outset. Such a person should not be breeding dogs. Period.

Even more amazing is that these same inbred dogs are AKC registered!


Why is that amazing? If they are purebred, and correctly registered, then
why should the registry not accept them?

I know this guy
quite well and believe he really does breed a high caliber lab. (His
litters are not frequent and he has a long waiting list so I'm not
going to give out his name in case you wanted to ask)


That's just stupid. You should /promote/ good breeders.

My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred


The pedigree.

or overbred?


Get a sire or dam report from the AKC. Assuming you mean bred many times by
"overbred".

Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?


Short answer: No.

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com


  #10  
Old November 12th 03, 03:27 AM
Andrea
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"Tirya" wrote in message
newsJfsb.175294$Fm2.155169@attbi_s04...
A little OT, and I'll admit that my breeding knowledge is from animals

other
than dogs, but is father/daughter breeding accepted as common practice in

the
dog world?


Father/daughter, brother/sister are uncommon. How uncommon may vary by
breed. Grandfather/grandaughter or uncle/niece, cousins, etc would be more
common. The former is considered inbreeding, the latter linebreeding.

Or do responsible line/inbreeders try to only come as close as
grandfather/granddaughter?


Neither would be indicative of a responsible vs irresponsible breeder. I'd
considered a father/daughter breeding. Decided against it, but it was a
thought. I like to consider myself responsible.

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com


 




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