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#1
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It's happened again...
So Saskia has been nothing but love and deference toward Walter until today.
Well, also today except for one moment. Someone at the pet store gave her a new squeaky toy, and she was on the sofa with it (it has now been reduced to rubble by her and thrown away by me). Walter approached, with me right there, and Saskia snapped the air about 2 feet from his face. It was obvious she was just issuing a little warning, but she shouldn't have felt comfortable with that. I was on the phone and reacted instinctively, whapping her not too hard on the nose with the paper I was holding. She was very sorry. I took the toy away from her and gave it back a few times, praising when there was no reaction. I was planning on desensitizing Saskia to Walter touching her things by praising for no reaction when he got near, but her trainer feels this would be a bad idea. She suggested making it very clear to Walter that Saskia's things are no-go, but when we did this it seemed to make Saskia more concerned when he did touch something. So the trainer now suggests trying to ignore it and not act like anything special is happening when he handles her things. Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting Saskia on the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we move) and stop letting her into our bedroom but especially on our bed. She thinks these two things are "the most damaging things we've done" in bringing Saskia up with a baby. My husband is 100% against either thing having anything to do with it. He says this advice and attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know Danes, that Danes get on furniture, it's just what they do. The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and crate her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter are in the same room (now he goes into the playpen but of course he'll outgrow it soon enough). We will be doing this at the new place, and we will create a Saskia-only "safe zone" for her. How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks' suggestions now that it has happened again? Thanks, Katrina |
#2
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White Monkey wrote:
So Saskia has been nothing but love and deference toward Walter until today. Well, also today except for one moment. Someone at the pet store gave her a new squeaky toy, and she was on the sofa with it (it has now been reduced to rubble by her and thrown away by me). Walter approached, with me right there, and Saskia snapped the air about 2 feet from his face. It was obvious she was just issuing a little warning, but she shouldn't have felt comfortable with that. I was on the phone and reacted instinctively, whapping her not too hard on the nose with the paper I was holding. She was very sorry. I took the toy away from her and gave it back a few times, praising when there was no reaction. I was planning on desensitizing Saskia to Walter touching her things by praising for no reaction when he got near, but her trainer feels this would be a bad idea. She suggested making it very clear to Walter that Saskia's things are no-go, but when we did this it seemed to make Saskia more concerned when he did touch something. So the trainer now suggests trying to ignore it and not act like anything special is happening when he handles her things. That seems like a sensible course of action. No need to inject stress into the situation if it isn't there. (What do you do when the dog picks up the child's toys?) Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting Saskia on the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we move) and stop letting her into our bedroom but especially on our bed. She thinks these two things are "the most damaging things we've done" in bringing Saskia up with a baby. My husband is 100% against either thing having anything to do with it. He says this advice and attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know Danes, that Danes get on furniture, it's just what they do. That's nonsense. Any breed of dog will get up on the furniture if you allow it, or keep off the furniture if you don't allow it. I personally have never allowed my dogs--GSDs and Goldens--to get up on the furniture. They have the run of the house, they are always with us--but the furniture is for the humans. I 'm far from a neat freak, or I wouldn't have dogs who shed so heavily, but I don't want to live in a kennel. That's just as bad to me as people who allow their small children to trash the furniture. Neither the dogs nor the children will ever learn to coexist with nice things if they aren't taught. But YMMV. I also see no reason to allow dogs up on the bed. My dogs sleep in the bedroom with me from day one, but they have their own bed. But I don't see any reason to ban them from the bedroom unless you have allergies. In my experience, there tends to be a certain degree of sibling rivalry between a young dog and a baby/toddler. I can see that letting the dog sleep on the bed with you might give the dog the idea that she outranks the child. The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and crate her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter are in the same room (now he goes into the playpen but of course he'll outgrow it soon enough). Sounds like a good idea to me. I would never leave a baby or toddler alone in a room with a dog, especially a large dog who has snapped at him. We will be doing this at the new place, and we will create a Saskia-only "safe zone" for her. Sounds to me as if the baby is the one at risk. What message are you sending the dog if you make a big deal each time the child touches her toys--have you trained the dog not to touch the child's toys?--and if the child is the one "crated" and the dog is free? How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks' suggestions now that it has happened again? Let's face it: a Dane could kill or maim a two year old child in an instant. I'd be concerned. You need to nip this in the bud. |
#3
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White Monkey wrote: How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks' suggestions now that it has happened again? Thanks, Katrina I agree with your trainer. Your dog should lose all furniture priveleges, and no, that is not impossible to do with a Dane My Dane isn't allowed on furniture, he has his own bed, and he's never complained about it Your trainers suggestions are all right on, things I would suggest as well. A Dane bite to a baby could be fatal, this is nothing to beat aroud the bush about. As an added measure, I would also put your dog on NILIF. I'm sure you are familiar with that, if not, heres a link:http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm Always make sure you are in the same room as the dog and baby, supervision is key here. Teach your baby to never approach a dog who is eating, or chewing bone, or toy. This is for his safety. Good luck |
#4
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Thanks. I'll reply to both of you in more detail later, but I did want to
assure you that a) the baby and dog are never alone together, even across the room from me, and b) the dog simply does not pick up the baby's toys. Once or twice she's poked one, but we simply say "leave it" in a reasonable tone and she does. --Katrina |
#5
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:35:39 +0200 White Monkey whittled these words:
Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting Saskia on the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we move) and stop letting her into our bedroom but especially on our bed. She thinks these two things are "the most damaging things we've done" in bringing Saskia up with a baby. My husband is 100% against either thing having anything to do with it. He says this advice and attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know Danes, that Danes get on furniture, it's just what they do. The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and crate her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter are in the same room (now he goes into the playpen but of course he'll outgrow it soon enough). We will be doing this at the new place, and we will create a Saskia-only "safe zone" for her. How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks' suggestions now that it has happened again? None of us are there. The trainer is. None of us have met the dog, the trainer has. If you have good reason to believe the trainer is not competent, then find a competent trainer. But dog should not be snapping in reaction to anything the child does. It does not make the dog "bad" but it does mean the situation is serious. I don't think that letting dogs on the bed is "damaging" in the abstract. But if the dog needs a clear structure of its place in the pack, displacing the dog from the bed is part of the prescription. Set things up so that Sasika can be successful. Make it hard for her to make a mistake. You can do this with love and affection, but good management will develop good habits and keep everyone safe and happy. -- Diane Blackman There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence while preaching with violent words. http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/ |
#6
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"White Monkey" wrote in
: How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks' suggestions now that it has happened again? I am not going to comment. Others have and I don't know enough about the situation to even warrant a guess. However, I have a question: How close were you or your husband when Saskia snapped/growled at Walter? Is it possible that Saskia is jealous of the time that Walter is spending with you or hubby? As for the trainer, whether or not the trainer is competent is not the question. The question should be whether you and your husband feel confident in what the trainer is doing. After what she said and your husband's response, I get the impression that he would have a great deal of difficulty following any requests from this lady... -- Marcel and Moogli http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/ |
#7
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On 5 Oct 2005 20:23:05 GMT Marcel Beaudoin whittled these words:
As for the trainer, whether or not the trainer is competent is not the question. The question should be whether you and your husband feel confident in what the trainer is doing. After what she said and your husband's response, I get the impression that he would have a great deal of difficulty following any requests from this lady... A lot of people will trainer shop until they hear what they want to hear. The trainer may be completely out to lunch but the people happily follow the advice because they have already decided what they want. They have a LOT of confidence in the incompetent trainer because they are hearing what they want to hear. Sometimes the bottom line is the person needs to open their ears and hear. Sometimes prescriptions are unpleasant, but they save lives and families. Kind of like grieving there are usually steps or phases involved in a person dealing with (or not) dog behavior issues. Katrina's family has reached the denial stage "yes, but ..." etc -- Diane Blackman There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence while preaching with violent words. http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/ |
#9
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:35:39 +0200, "White Monkey"
, clicked their heels and said: I was planning on desensitizing Saskia to Walter touching her things by praising for no reaction when he got near, but her trainer feels this would be a bad idea. She suggested making it very clear to Walter that Saskia's things are no-go, but when we did this it seemed to make Saskia more concerned when he did touch something. I like to teach kids and dogs to play with toys together. "Help" Walter throw a ball for her for instance. So the trainer now suggests trying to ignore it and not act like anything special is happening when he handles her things. The dog has to accept him handling her things. But not necessarily when they are in her mouth (not right now anyway). Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting Saskia on the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we move) and stop letting her into our bedroom but especially on our bed. She thinks these two things are "the most damaging things we've done" in bringing Saskia up with a baby. My husband is 100% against either thing having anything to do with it. He says this advice and attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know Danes, that Danes get on furniture, it's just what they do. Dogs "do" other things to - bite, chew, jump - are those all acceptable to him as well? I agree with getting her off the couch and bed. The bedroom is a little less clear. The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and crate her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter are in the same room (now he goes into the playpen but of course he'll outgrow it soon enough). We will be doing this at the new place, and we will create a Saskia-only "safe zone" for her. I disagree - they need to learn to live in a normal flow. -- Janet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album |
#10
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Hey, folks, I never said or implied that I am questioning this trainer's
competence. I am a little offended that people have leaped to this conclusion or that we are in some sort of denial (OK, my husband was about the bed thing, but that's all). By posting here I wanted to gather advice and suggestions because as people here are fond of pointing out the person who knows my dog best is me. The trainer--and I am not saying I expect people to know this--met her once when she was about 10 months old, evaluated her, gave us some pointers on working on her stay and on not pulling on the lead, and said she wasn't ready to join the group classes, urged us to work on these things on our own, and said Saskia has a nice, soft temperament. I then consulted her once by phone about SA, and another time about Saskia's sudden fear of bridges. Then her partner came out to the park and worked with me on the bridge thing, now over. Then the trainer called me and told me to try Bach Flower remedies for Saskia's general anxiety. That was the last contact, about five months ago, with her. So first of all I am not rejecting her, but second of all she is not someone who has worked with this dog closely. She told me that ANY dog that gets on furniture will "think it's dominant" and OK, so I question this sort of blanket statement--that doesn't mean I'm not going to try the advice. One reason I posted here and on the Danes groups was to seek support *if it was there* for not letting her on the furniture--I explicitly did not say that's what I was looking for because I wanted honest takes on that advice. I have now heard that agreed with by enough people that my husband is willing to do it--I have explained that people are saying that a dog with certain issues, and neither of us has owned quite such an anxious dog before, can have a real need for extra structure, and that the furniture thing can be a useful and integral tool thereto. I've come to rely on networking here for help framing problems and working out the best solutions to them. I don't know where people got the idea that I was complaining about the trainer or something. Oh, Marcel--I was right there, on the phone but within arm's reach of them both. Walter was cruising around the coffee table. I acknowledge the possibility of that sort of jealousy but haven't seen any definitive example of it--she does love the baby and likes to stay as close to him as possible, lying quietly, while he's playing, and she licks his head and wags at him a lot, never tries to get between us and him, and when we pick him up and sit on the couch or something she never comes rushing over for attention as I have seen with some dogs. But we are keeping an eye on it. Meanwhile, the "Saskia safe zone"... well, last time I posted, here and on the Danes group, one of the most common pieces of advice was to set up an area, like her crate, where Saskia could retreat to get away from it all. Is this, then, no longer considered good advice? We realize that the last few weeks/months have been hard on Saskia. We are taking steps now to remedy this, but the real changes will happen in 11 days, when we move. First, several months ago we were forced to leave our big house in the suburbs for a small apartment in the most densely populated section of the city. There is literally no room for her crate, nor for a dog bed in the bedroom, etc. She adjusted very well. We got her out for a short run every day and a long one 3 or 4 times a week. We played with her a lot after the baby went to bed. Then, recently, Danny had to go to Germany for six days. While he was gone I discovered mold EVERYWHERE behind furniture, on random pieces of clothing, under the baby's bed, etc. So Walter AND Saskia were neglected for a couple of days while I threw stuff out, cleaned, and washed about 30 loads of laundry, bought new baby furniture. Right on time, Walter got sick for the first time--and I caught it as well. We both had fevers and stuffy heads, coughs, etc. So no trips out to run until I got a friend to come over and watch Walter while I charged down with Saskia to the closer and less fun dog field, sick, in the pouring rain. That's right about when my grandmother got very ill. She's OK but they need 24 hour home care there now, so some of the money that was helping us live in this emergency-found, expensive, tiny apartment is going elsewhere now. We started house-hunting, and Saskia didn't get out enough or get enough stimulation, at which point the Food Fiasco happened--her skin problem is retreating again now that we've found a suitable food after the source of the one dried up overnight and we were forced to try another very high quality food that turned out to have something she's sensitive to in it. Then we had to run out to Haarlem a few times to finalize the deal on the new rental, and meanwhile first Danny got sick, then I did, then him, them me, and the baby is teething, so nobody feels very well. Then I took Saskia to the Big Park, about a week and a half ago, where she ran around like a goofball and had a great time and then drank some questionable water before I could stop her, and so we were off to the vet when she started throwing up and shivering after we got home. She's terrified of the vet (all vets). Then strangers showed up and dropped off so many boxes that nobody can move around the living room adequately, and I have ANOTHER damn flu (there's a new one going around this year, everyone's down with it). In 11 days, movers will show up, and my friend with the taxi van likewise. We will all head out to Haarlem. The house there is more than twice as big. It has a sizeable garden with an apple tree. Directly across the street is a large park full of signs proclaiming it a dog-running park (very different from a US dog park). We'll get her out for a run at least once a day, a long run. We'll take her more places with us around town, because the streets aren't so noisy and crowded and narrow and there are open-air markets and all that. We'll play with her more again because we won't be dealing with the mold crisis and all that. And we will be going "back to work" with her--if we can find something that makes her feel like she's pulling her weight, even if it's just a ten minute obedience session every day or something, I'm sure that will help her. We'll also try to find a kynologie club (not sure on the English) out there--the last one we tried to visit took over 1 1/2 hours to get to, involving two buses, but she enjoyed the classes--and then I went into labor. Saskia has seemed down to me lately, and her self-confidence hasn't been at its best, and she's been bored, and I do know we only have ourselves to blame. Any suggestions further to giving her enough to do and enough stimulation within a structure would be appreciated--sure we could just let her go out and play with her basketball all day at the new place but we feel she could really benefit from some structured activities. I'm afraid agility is out--she has a very rarely symptomatic vertebral malformation that makes her orthopedist want us to minimize twisting movements, hard play with other dogs, stuff like that, and I'm betting some of the activities in agility fall into that category. --Katrina |
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