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Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....



 
 
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  #31  
Old February 15th 09, 10:16 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
sighthounds & siberians
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Posts: 2,538
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:51:13 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On 15 Feb 2009 12:36:27 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:



I don't know the statistics, but Dale isn't the only one who thinks
Dr. Dodds overdiagnoses hypothyroidism.


Dr. Dodds is generally not well thought of in the veterinary research
community. She's also very animal rights oriented (is a member of AVAR,
has testified in favor of breed bans, etc.) She is, as I understand
it, primary author of AVAR's list of canine genetic diseases, which is
wildly inaccurate and misleading, in that they take every possible name
for a disease and count it separately. As an example, the list shows
that Dobermans have Wobblers Disease, Cervical Vertebral Instability,
and Cervical spondyloarthropathy. It lists those as three different
Doberman diseases, yet it's all one disease. The list also takes ANY
problem ANY individual member of a breed has and extrapolates that to a
general breed genetic disease issue.


There are, unfortunately, greyhound rescue groups that advocate
putting every greyhound that is shy or has bald thighs on thyroid
supplement on the basis of a T4. There's a large national group that
sells Soloxine - you don't even need to get a script from your vet!
Hypothyroidism is greatly overdiagnosed in ex-racers and Dr. Dodds'
opinions on hypothyroidism are often spouted as basis for treatment.


  #33  
Old February 15th 09, 10:47 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Melinda Shore
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Posts: 7,732
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
Numbers and probabilites are great, but the above odds aren't good
enough for me when we're talking about diagnostics - not for my
doctors and myself and not for my vets and my animals.


I made up the odds as an example of a very high false
positive rate. With a number that high, 40% of her
positives are false positives, but any given dog she
diagnoses as hypothyroid is still probably hypothyroid. I
don't know what her actual false positive rate is. I'd be
surprised if it were that high or higher and she still had
her license. Is there some thought that over half of her
diagnoses are incorrect?

I'm super-careful too, but I trust my vets. I can't imagine
going to a vet I didn't, but I gather from the posts here a
lot of people have a crappy relationship with their
veterinarian, which surprises me. Anyway, last year during
a routine workup Saber was found to be hypothyroid, which
surprised me a lot because he was completely asymptomatic.
The vet sent the sample off to Michigan State and they
confirmed it, so we put him on thyroxine for a month and
retested and everything looked normal on the medication.
Being aware of the probabilities doesn't mean that you're
less diligent, but it does mean that you shouldn't run
around dismissing individual diagnoses out-of-hand.

[Image says "boingy boingy boingy" It's getting near
suppertime]
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #34  
Old February 16th 09, 12:41 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Janet Boss
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Posts: 4,368
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

In article ,
"Alison" wrote:


It's ok I found it. I can't believe some of the answers!
alison


What specifically? Just curious.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
  #35  
Old February 16th 09, 03:08 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Rocky[_2_]
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Posts: 2,421
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

Kathleen said in
rec.pets.dogs.health:

I am a firm believer in the seat of the pants, the pit of
the stomach, the back of the neck.

If you think something is wrong, even subtly, get it
checked.


That was going to be the gist of my reply to Dale and I'm happy
to not have to write it. After Rocky's onset, I would have had
a thyroid panel done (many on the epilepsy lists are huge Dodds
fans) if it hadn't been obvious that Rocky's epilepsy wasn't
secondary.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #36  
Old February 16th 09, 04:09 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
sighthounds & siberians
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,538
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

On 15 Feb 2009 16:47:24 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
Numbers and probabilites are great, but the above odds aren't good
enough for me when we're talking about diagnostics - not for my
doctors and myself and not for my vets and my animals.


I made up the odds as an example of a very high false
positive rate. With a number that high, 40% of her
positives are false positives, but any given dog she
diagnoses as hypothyroid is still probably hypothyroid. I
don't know what her actual false positive rate is. I'd be
surprised if it were that high or higher and she still had
her license. Is there some thought that over half of her
diagnoses are incorrect?


I figured you made up that false positive rate. I imagine there are
people who believe that over half her diagnoses are incorrect, but I
have no idea how many false positives she diagnoses. Admittedly I'm
approaching this from the standpoint of medical malpractice defense,
but my point was that I don't like to see "statistical probabilites"
and "accurate diagnoses" in the same sentence.

I'm super-careful too, but I trust my vets. I can't imagine
going to a vet I didn't, but I gather from the posts here a
lot of people have a crappy relationship with their
veterinarian, which surprises me. Anyway, last year during
a routine workup Saber was found to be hypothyroid, which
surprised me a lot because he was completely asymptomatic.
The vet sent the sample off to Michigan State and they
confirmed it, so we put him on thyroxine for a month and
retested and everything looked normal on the medication.
Being aware of the probabilities doesn't mean that you're
less diligent, but it does mean that you shouldn't run
around dismissing individual diagnoses out-of-hand.


I trust my vets, but I also question them. Vets aren't like
physicians; they're supposed to be experts on several animal species,
rather than concentrating on one system or one aspect of one species
as many human physicians do. Mine does that very well, but there are
times when I know more about certain health problems common in my
breeds than they do. Fortunately, there is mutual respect so that we
can learn from each other. I guess it isn't completely shocking that
a dog can be diagnosed as hypothyroid without displaying any symptoms.
Most of the symptoms of hypothyroidism in humans are pretty
subjective, and not everyone gets every symptom of every disease, so
it stands to reason that dogs could be hypothyroid without showing
objective signs. After all, they can't tell you they feel lethargic
or that everything feels so slowed down they can't remember anything.

[Image says "boingy boingy boingy" It's getting near
suppertime]


And suppertime is always a good time. Music almost got fed twice the
other night; you should have seen his face when I dumped the second
dinner. How is Image? A good sign that she can boing.

  #37  
Old February 16th 09, 05:15 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Alison[_3_]
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Posts: 581
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...

What specifically? Just curious.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com


Some like this - (different authors)

"I've dealt with some big dogs with aggression issues, and how I react
is very specific to the dog itself. With some dogs, I've put my foot
on the back of their neck and used pressure to pin them to the ground.
With others, I've picked them up by the scruff, rolled them onto their
back, straddled them while holding the head down by the fur on the
neck."

"As I said before, almost ALL puppies will growl at you to test what their
limits are with you. And that is NOT TO BE TOLERATED. I would bet that he
did just that as a puppy, and was not called on it. If a puppy growls at
me, I will grab him by the scruff of his neck and growl right in his face.
If he wants to do it as a bigger dog, I will hang him if need be, or
otherwise use physical force to let him know that I am the pack leader,
not him. And, if you have the rare dog that won't let up, no matter what
the correction, I would advise you to euthanize the animal"

"Okay, to be blunt: If your dog bites you, BEFORE you go
clean up the bite, you swat that creature across the
room"

You are Mother Theresa in comparison. LOL.

Nice to see some old names there. Does anyone keep in touch with Diane
Blackman? I thought Nancy Holmes' reply was a good one.
Alison


  #38  
Old February 16th 09, 05:23 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Janet Boss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,368
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

In article ,
"Alison" wrote:


Some like this - (different authors)
snip quotes
You are Mother Theresa in comparison. LOL.


I admit that I didn't look at the entire thread, but don't remember
those quotes. I'll have to look and see who wrote them. I'm better
Mother Theresa has a limit on what crap she'd put up with too. Biting
is pretty big crap!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
  #39  
Old February 16th 09, 08:20 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Melinda Shore
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Posts: 7,732
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
Fortunately, there is mutual respect so that we
can learn from each other.


Right, but if your vet said "Your dog could be hypothyroid,"
would you blow him or her off?

And suppertime is always a good time. Music almost got fed twice the
other night; you should have seen his face when I dumped the second
dinner. How is Image? A good sign that she can boing.


She likes winter a lot and seems to be going through a good
phase. Sometimes she has problems getting up the porch
stairs and other times she floats up them. She's still
got no control over her crapper and that's a problem but
we're dealing with it. We're taking it day-by-day, and as
long as she still loves to eat (and *boy* does she love to
eat) and seems to be enjoying herself, we're all good.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #40  
Old February 17th 09, 03:06 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
sighthounds & siberians
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,538
Default Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

On 16 Feb 2009 14:20:32 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
Fortunately, there is mutual respect so that we
can learn from each other.


Right, but if your vet said "Your dog could be hypothyroid,"
would you blow him or her off?


It would depend on which vet, and on what led that vet to say the dog
could be hypothyroid. A couple of techs have suggested that I have
Music's thyroid levels checked because he tends to be a tad overweight
in spite of not being fed much (for a greyhound his size). I passed
their recollections along to the guy I consider my vet, the senior
guy, and he laughed, which was pretty much my reaction as well.
Music's just got a metabolism that's as slow as his activity level,
and apparently he eats enough paper, cardboard and plastic to keep his
weight up. But no, if that vet said one of my dogs could be
hypothyroid, I wouldn't blow him off.

She likes winter a lot and seems to be going through a good
phase. Sometimes she has problems getting up the porch
stairs and other times she floats up them. She's still
got no control over her crapper and that's a problem but
we're dealing with it. We're taking it day-by-day, and as
long as she still loves to eat (and *boy* does she love to
eat) and seems to be enjoying herself, we're all good.


Good for her. No control over the crapper is a problem, but I think
I'd rather have that than no control over the pee-er, which we have in
two dogs. Wait, maybe not; they're males, and although belly bands
and human incontinence pads are inconvenient and expensive,
respectively, they work. Do you use diapers with Image (a Siberian -
riiiight), or is consistency such that you can clean up fairly easily?
Around here, a dog incontinent of poop would be a big problem for a
completely different, and rather disgusting, reason.

Our dogs are divided when it comes to winter-liking. There was some
stir-craziness setting in with the really low temperatures and many
feet of snow, but the greyhounds are pretty happy when temps are in
the 30s or even high 20s. When the snow melted to less than 2 feet
but it was still cold, Music was running circles and play bowing to
Mukluk, who didn't know quite what to do about it. Old Muk's pretty
weak in the hind end most days, but he's still hanging in there and
has the same attitude he did when he was young and mighty.

 




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