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Breeders and Inbreeding - Any way to tell?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 12th 03, 04:39 AM
Emily Carroll
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"Mile Sullivan" wrote in message
m...

I personally know two breeders who severely inbreed their dogs and
then sell them.


And this in and of itself is a problem because? Inbreeding itself is not
inherently bad--it's a way of showing what is in that line. If there's lots
of bad stuff, then you'll get sick or poor quality puppies. If there's lots
of good stuff, you get some darned great puppies.

They actually will take a female from the litter,
breed her with her father until she can't produce any longer, and then
repeat the cycle with the next litter. The result: Both breeders have
sold dogs who later developed epilepsy, cancer, poor temperament and a
whole variety of other problems. This seems to be a wide spread
problem here in the northeast.


It's a widespread problem throughout the country--breeders breeding simply
to produce puppies.

What really gets me is that some (I said SOME not ALL) of these
breeders are the same ones who try to force the AKC "limited"
registration or produce ridiculous contracts preventing you from
breeding your own dogs. I believe this is a way for them to stem
competition from new breeders rather than their "holier than thou"
attitude of claiming it's to prevent irresponsible breeding.


Well, "my" breeder produces 5-6 litters a year (well, tries to...she's had
SEVERAL misses this year, only three live litters, one of which died a week
after birth...a single puppy). She has more homes than puppies, in most
litters. It's semi-difficult to find homes for black boys, but I can only
think of one pup she couldn't place by 9 weeks (that she wasn't waiting on a
show home for) in the 2 years I've known her. He was placed at 12 weeks.

Limited registration protects not the breeder, but the dog itself. If the
breeder thought that puppy was of a quality suitable to breed, he or she
would've kept it him/herself or sold it to another responsible breeder. Why
would a responsible owner WANT to breed a puppy that didn't meet par?

Some of
these breeders also keep their dogs confined to small pens. They are
in fact miniature puppy mills; the same puppy mills they scream and
holler about.


The difference between a responsible breeder kenneling/crating their dogs,
and a puppy mill, is that a puppy mill only removes the dogs so the cage can
be cleaned. A responsible breeder trains, shows, handles, grooms, and plays
with their dogs in addition to their chores.


Even more amazing is that these same inbred dogs are AKC registered!


The AKC will register ANY dog whose parents both have AKC registration
papers.

I know another breeder who breeds labs and is very conscientious about
it. He told me that inbreeding is such a problem in this area that he
had to drive out to the midwest to find dogs he considered to be good
quality lineage so he could breed quality puppies.


Why doesn't he just look online? There are literally thousands of Labrador
breeders with their websites online. It's simple enough, as well, to have
semen shipped, rather than driving out here.

So far, not a
singly puppy has had any problems that he knows of.


The true question is how hard does he look. Not to criticize your guy in
particular, but any responsible breeder will OFA hips, hearts, and elbows on
all their Labradors, as well as having yearly CERF exams (which are now also
registered in the OFA databases). In addition, our breed has issues with
allergies, epilepsy, and thyroid problems.

So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred?


Yes. Look at the pedigree. If there are no matches within 4 generations,
then your puppy is an outcross or a distant linebreeding. The closer the
shared ancestors come, the more closely linebred the puppies are. A
linebreeding brings out the good in a given (or a group of given) ancestor,
yet is far enough that you have the ability to help breed *out* those dogs'
problems, whether they be health, temperament, or conformation related.

You can't trust the unscrupulous
breeders to tell the truth, and you can't rely on the AKC to know,


Why wouldn't the AKC know? They track litters as well as pedigrees. The
only reason the AKC wouldn't know would be if the breeder was lying to them.

Something really has to be done about this. Any ideas?


Yes. Try learning before preaching. It works better.

--
Emily Carroll
Dealing 80s Toys - Rainbow Brite - My Little Pony - More
Fluttervale Labradors: www.geocities.com/diamonds_in_her_eyes/dogs/
CPG: www.geocities.com/cyberpetgame/
4-H Club: www.geocities.com/woofsandwiggles/



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  #12  
Old November 12th 03, 08:55 AM
Andrea
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"Emily Carroll" wrote
snip
Well, "my" breeder produces 5-6 litters a year


That is a lot of litters! Why does she breed so many?

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com


  #13  
Old November 12th 03, 01:42 PM
Emily Carroll
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snip
Well, "my" breeder produces 5-6 litters a year


That is a lot of litters! Why does she breed so many?


She has the space & the time. She has a large setup (as far as yards and
kennels), as well as being a stay-at-home mom to two gradeschoolers. The
kids help her with the dogs, who are just beautifully socialized (my puppy,
Rusty, would literally SCREAM when he was put down because her youngest
carried him everywhere). Her family has been in dogs for over 40
years--she's had show dogs since she was born, and she has little to no
trouble placing puppies.

Honestly, when I saw her setup, I thought "That's a heck of a lot of dogs,"
but I knew her for better than a year and she does things more ethically
than most Lab breeders out there.

--
Emily Carroll
Dealing 80s Toys - Rainbow Brite - My Little Pony - More
Fluttervale Labradors: www.geocities.com/diamonds_in_her_eyes/dogs/
CPG: www.geocities.com/cyberpetgame/
4-H Club: www.geocities.com/woofsandwiggles/



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  #14  
Old November 12th 03, 04:21 PM
shelly
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On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Emily Carroll wrote:

snip
Well, "my" breeder produces 5-6 litters a year


That is a lot of litters! Why does she breed so many?


She has the space & the time.


i have two questions prompted by one of the current threads in
*behavior. i assume your pup's breeder doesn't get many dogs
returned. what would she do if she *were* to have a bunch of
dogs returned to her? she may be doing everything right, and
have all the time and resources in the world, but producing
that many litters yearly is a huge, strobing, red, warning
light.

question two: what is her overall breeding goal? it seems to
me that a good, responsible breeder should be breeding for the
betterment of the breed. i would think that could be
accomplished without breeding 5-6 litters each year. is it
really necessary for a breeder to create that many pups,
especially in a breed that is as hugely populous as Labs?

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #15  
Old November 12th 03, 04:44 PM
Emily Carroll
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i have two questions prompted by one of the current threads in
*behavior. i assume your pup's breeder doesn't get many dogs
returned. what would she do if she *were* to have a bunch of
dogs returned to her? she may be doing everything right, and
have all the time and resources in the world, but producing
that many litters yearly is a huge, strobing, red, warning
light.


In fact, she had two dogs returned (one almost-returned) in the last 3
months. She has the space for nearly twice as many dogs as she currently
has, with minor adjustments.


question two: what is her overall breeding goal? it seems to
me that a good, responsible breeder should be breeding for the
betterment of the breed. i would think that could be
accomplished without breeding 5-6 litters each year. is it
really necessary for a breeder to create that many pups,
especially in a breed that is as hugely populous as Labs?


Well, considering half the litters are *not* Labrador litters, no, it's not
a detriment to the breed. She's also producing dogs that her husband hunts
with, that pass all four major clearances, and are finished or finishable.

The other breed, she and her mom co-own. They owner/bred the #4 dog in the
country of that breed currently as well as own his father, who I believe was
ranked in the top 5 at one point as well. 75% of the pups she's produced of
that breed are either major pointed, finished, or finishable but in a pet
home. They have currently, between them, 3 dogs (of about a dozen) that are
one title away from their multi-purpose titles (field/conformation/companion
titles).

Just because a breeder doesn't keep a small kennel does not mean they are
not producing for the betterment of the breed. It seems to me that it would
be more difficult to improve the breed if you don't have the space or time
to grow on two or three littermates that are promising as 8 week old pups.

It also seems to me that it would be much more difficult for a breeder with
4-5 dogs to take back 3 or 4 dogs in a six month period than for someone who
has a large kennel facility.

--
Emily Carroll
Dealing 80s Toys - Rainbow Brite - My Little Pony - More
Fluttervale Labradors: www.geocities.com/diamonds_in_her_eyes/dogs/
CPG: www.geocities.com/cyberpetgame/
4-H Club: www.geocities.com/woofsandwiggles/



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  #16  
Old November 12th 03, 07:10 PM
Earth2Fan
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or overbred?

Get a sire or dam report from the AKC. Assuming you mean bred many times by
"overbred".


Unfortunately this would only tell you their titled offspring.

Elizabeth
  #17  
Old November 12th 03, 07:36 PM
Andrea
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"Emily Carroll" wrote:

She has the space & the time. She has a large setup (as far as yards and
kennels), as well as being a stay-at-home mom to two gradeschoolers. The
kids help her with the dogs, who are just beautifully socialized


I guess I'm just of the mind of why would anyone /want/ to breed that much,
not that it can't be done reasonably well. It certainly sounds like she's
being responsible to the dogs she produces, and I'm in no way saying she
isn't. I just don't understand the necessity of producing that many puppies.
Could she not accomplish the same or very similar goals without making so
many dogs? Maybe the goals wouldn't be achieved as quickly, but that doesn't
sound like a bad thing to me.

I personally have issues with Basenji breeders who breed /one/ litter every
year. It's a very different breed, and a lot harder to place than a Labrador
obviously. But still, 30 dogs every year (5 litters, 6 pups each and I'm
guessing that's a low estimate?) is a lot of dogs. That's 50 litters in 10
years! My favorite Basenji breeders have produced less than 20 /combined/ in
40 years. Different culture I guess, so I'm just explaining where I'm coming
from.

Oh, and uh... pictures of Rusty? :-D

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com


  #18  
Old November 12th 03, 07:47 PM
Andrea
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"Earth2Fan" wrote

Unfortunately this would only tell you their titled offspring.



Oh shoot, you're right. /Titled/. Bleh.

Nevermind.
--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://home1.gte.net/res0s12z/
The Trolls Nest - greenmen, goblins & gargoyle wall art
www.trollsnest.com


  #19  
Old November 13th 03, 04:48 AM
Emily Carroll
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Oh, and uh... pictures of Rusty? :-D


On the webpage.

Oh, and while I clipped your whole post, remember that my breed is one that
has 99% of the dogs BYB and maybe that 1% responsibly bred. There is no
shortage of demand for good puppies, nor is there a shortage of good homes.

--
Emily Carroll
Dealing 80s Toys - Rainbow Brite - My Little Pony - More
Fluttervale Labradors: www.geocities.com/diamonds_in_her_eyes/dogs/
CPG: www.geocities.com/cyberpetgame/
4-H Club: www.geocities.com/woofsandwiggles/



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  #20  
Old November 17th 03, 03:47 PM
Mile Sullivan
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That sounds like great advice, Diana. Unfortunately, some of these
breeders lie and, short of bringing a lie detector along with me, I
can't tell if they're being truthful or not.

I guess it's just a matter of waiting and watching.

Thanks,
Mike

"Diana" wrote in message ...
"Mile Sullivan" wrote in message
m...

[snip rant]

So, enough rambling. My question is: Is there any way to tell if a
puppy has been inbred or overbred? You can't trust the unscrupulous
breeders to tell the truth, and you can't rely on the AKC to know,
what other options are there? I've found references from other people
to be unreliable. I have heard that there is DNA technology for dogs
now. Could this be used to tell the quality of a breed?

Something really has to be done about this. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike


I'm not a breeder but I've not long bought a puppy after a fair bit of
research so I figure I'm qualified enough to answer some part of your
question.... the answer is really pretty much down to common sense.

If you ask questions about health, health testing, why the pups were bred,
how often they are bred etc and the person is honest and open with you ~ and
the waiting list is always a good sign, if its genuine. ~ then you might
want to move on to the next step and go to meet their dogs.

If the dogs are happy, comfortable with people and the breeders are
obviously proud of them, talk to them and the dogs are responsive and
obedient to their owners commands without looking obviously over or under
keen (breed specific traits aside regarding human attentiveness), you've got
a better chance that these dogs enjoy a loving family life.

If you don't find these things apply, then just don't buy ~ simple.

Diana

 




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