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New AKC Agility regs announced



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 21st 05, 02:06 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:I33qf.641763$_o.470772@attbi_s71...
Another thing, the AKC is now suggesting weaves be 22" in spacing, it
was 21" before. I think 22" should be mandatory across all venues. Still
tight enough to not penalize the little dogs, but big enough to make a
huge difference to the big dogs.


Actually, the old AKC rule said they could be anything from 20" to 24".
They *did* suggest 22". But the whole range was allowed. Have they
strengthened their "suggestion"?

And my little dogs have been trained on 22 inches - we suffer from pop-outs
when we go to a trial that has weaves 20 to 21 inches.

We ran a trial last summer with a set that was 20 1/2 and could not get
Sassy through twelve the entire weekend. We (by the last run, formed a
group!) started watching for some little handler error that was pulling her
out but decided the bottom line was her pacing.

~~Judy
who plans to print out the new rules and maybe get around to reading it by
New Year's Day or so. No way it's going to happen this week.


  #12  
Old December 21st 05, 04:32 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced


Robin Nuttall wrote:


Yes, except I'd say 95% of the weaves here have crossbar supports, and
they will need to now have offset leg supports. I paid $500 for my
Max200 weaves four years ago, and a friend of mine just bought an
identical set--lord knows how much she paid. Now relegated to practice.


You've probably seen it, but Sharon Normandin posted to Agiledogs
that Max200 is looking at ways to retrofit their weaves.

Plus, some of our jumps aren't tall enough or made so that you can add a
26" height.


Adding jump cups is only easy if your jumps are A. tall enough and B.
made of either PVC or wood. One of my clubs uses welded metal jumps,
and it would be a major PIA if new heights had to be added.
Fortunately, about half of club #1's jumps already have 26" bar
supports for those who want to practice for USDAA, so there won't be a
problem for anyone who needs/wants to start practicing the height for
AKC. (99% of club #2's members *only* do NADAC, so no worries there,
either- although it wouldn't be too hard to add the extra supports to
our wooden jumps.)
It would be a major expense and nuisance, even so, if we needed to
retrofit to have enough jumps to actually put on a trial with the
height - so I can imagine what an issue it's going to be for clubs like
yours, that DO host AKC trials.


I think it will be fun. You *must* complete the gamble portion in order
to Q, but you can do it at any time. If you flub, you can't try it
again. And you have to do at least 15 obstacles, all of which are
assigned a point value. I don't understand it completely yet but I'm
looking forward to it.


I'll be interested to hear how it works out - and to see if it
lessens the "running at heel" style I see in some newbies-to-NADAC.
(Not that I have room to talk, since Rocsi's lateral distance skills
suck. FORWARD distance, she's got. G)

Have to say, though, that I was a bit amused by a couple of posts
going "Oh no, with THREE classes we'll be there 'til midnight!!!"....
since I've been to dozens of trials with 4 classes a day that easily
finished by 3:30 or so, and even with the 5-6 classes a day that are
now routine, we usually finish between 5 and 6 if the trial's run at
ALL efficiently.

  #13  
Old December 21st 05, 06:24 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced

Robin Nuttall said in
rec.pets.dogs.activities:

Another thing, the AKC is now suggesting weaves be 22" in
spacing, it was 21" before. I think 22" should be mandatory
across all venues.


If it's going to be changed, I think it should go to 24", which
(I believe) is the international/European standard.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #14  
Old December 21st 05, 10:47 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced

cimawr wrote:
Robin Nuttall wrote:


Have to say, though, that I was a bit amused by a couple of posts
going "Oh no, with THREE classes we'll be there 'til midnight!!!"....
since I've been to dozens of trials with 4 classes a day that easily
finished by 3:30 or so, and even with the 5-6 classes a day that are
now routine, we usually finish between 5 and 6 if the trial's run at
ALL efficiently.


Well we ran a very efficient trial. One judge, two rings, other ring set
up as dogs were running ring 1. Judge took NO lunch breaks, barely any
breaks at all. It still took until 4:30 the first day. We shortened
walkthroughs further the 2nd day and managed to finish by 3:30, but we
were hustling butt all weekend long.

I don't know about NADAC, but in AKC ribbons cannot be awarded until the
judge reviews and approves every score sheet. So that has to be done
between classes. Plus AKC judges actually MEASURE their courses and
wheel them for 3 different heights, so 3 different wheels, not including
the walk through to tweak and ensure the course builders have built what
was on paper. Baseline measurements are used to ensure that the course
seen is exactly like the one on paper. The judge can and will change
things if they decide they don't like the flow, but they will also tell
people.

AKC is also mandated to have judge briefings before each class. Now they
will often combine Jumpers and Standard, but that's still at least 3
briefings per day, and the Novice ones tend to get a bit long to make
sure they've answered all questions.

I can tell you with great assurance that we could not have run a tighter
trial. Now the judge could have nested a bit more but again, you never
see AKC courses where the course remains the same for all levels with
just a change in time. Generally big stuff stays in place but jumps move
so that different levels are actually different.

If we stay with a 1-judge 2-ring format this year, we will not offer
FAST. If we move to 2 judges, we may well offer FAST.
  #15  
Old December 22nd 05, 03:51 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced


Robin Nuttall wrote:

Well we ran a very efficient trial. One judge, two rings, other ring set
up as dogs were running ring 1.


nodding That's a very efficient method, if you've got room for it.
My favorite NADAC club started doing that at outdoor events when trials
went to 6 classes (2 Regular, 1 each of Jumpers, Tunnelers, T&G,
Weavers). We usually finish around 6; indoors with only one ring takes
at least half an hour longer, usually more like an hour.

I don't know about NADAC, but in AKC ribbons cannot be awarded until the
judge reviews and approves every score sheet. So that has to be done
between classes.


Ah - now that's a *significant* addition to time! Having worked score
tables, I can tell you that's not required in NADAC. Any questions
about scores will be asked mid-class, rather than waiting until the
end.
The judges do review at some point, but not by looking at each
individual score sheet. I'm not sure, but I have the impression that
they go over the previous class's scores from the printout while the
next class is walking.

Now, here's a curiosity question: How are scores marked on AKC score
sheets? And how are they entered in the software?
With the NADAC ones, the scribe simply puts down a hash mark in the
correct column, and when the score is entered, all you have to do is
count the hash marks - IOW, if somebody had five hash marks in the
10-pt fault box, I would simply type "5" into the appropriate box on
the computer screen. (That's assuming the club is using Agility
Unscrambled.)
Since this is done as the class is running, the score sheets are
usually printed out, and posted, within 5-15 minutes of the end of the
class.

And nobody around here awards ribbons; they're self-serve. Most of the
clubs use a software program (again, Agility Unscrambled) which prints
out ribbon labels, and what's normallydone is to post the labels along
with the score sheets. Those who want ribbons get their own and put
labels on, those who don't just take the labels and stick them in
record books.
Saves LOTS of time, and also expense on ribbons.

Also, just out of curiosity, do AKC clubs in your area use assistant
scribes? A few years ago, we* had to teach one AKC club about that
method the first time they put on a NADAC trial; it was *amazing* how
much faster things went the second day, when they'd got the hang of it.

*"We" being members of my club, who, despite being from 2 states
away, made up the majority of the worker volunteers for some reason.

Plus AKC judges actually MEASURE their courses


Now you know NADAC judges measure courses, even if they don't always
use wheels - and striding usually takes *longer* than wheeling. G
(Yes, I, personally, prefer wheels.)

and
wheel them for 3 different heights, so 3 different wheels,


Aha. That, too, has to add significant time.
As a side note... I've got all three of my dogs on tape correctly
running the same Elite Jumpers course, and Rocsi's path was LONGER than
the other two's on the tightest turns.

AKC is also mandated to have judge briefings before each class. Now they
will often combine Jumpers and Standard, but that's still at least 3
briefings per day, and the Novice ones tend to get a bit long to make
sure they've answered all questions.


NADAC, there's a general briefing in the morning, and most judges do
brief all the classes, at least on the first day - although Elite
briefings tend to be on the order of "If you're in Elite, you know what
you're doing. Anybody got a question? Ok, go walk."
Novice is another story. G And I've never known a judge *not* to
brief Novice.

  #16  
Old December 22nd 05, 06:09 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced


Robin Nuttall wrote:

Now the judge could have nested a bit more but again, you never
see AKC courses where the course remains the same for all levels with
just a change in time.


That's a good point - for the NADAC non-jumping classes, there is a
time-save in both course-building and course-walking time since all
levels run the same course.
BTW, that's changing for Weavers next year - as I understand it, the
basic course layout will remain the same, but the number of weaves will
differ. Too many instances of Novice people stressing their dogs with
multiple re-tries, I think.

Generally big stuff stays in place but jumps move
so that different levels are actually different.


In the jumping classes, the levels are almost always different,
although Open and Elite are often very similar. The general course
layout may stay the same, but angles are tweaked to make Open easier -
for example, a flat serpentine in Elite will usually become slightly
angled in Open - and often, the first and last jumps are removed to
make the course shorter.... and of course the line moves closer for the
distance challenge; sometimes the challenge changes, as well.
But it normally takes very little time to adjust courses when they're
that closely nested.
Novice, however, is always a simpler layout.

  #17  
Old December 22nd 05, 08:01 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced


Robin Nuttall wrote:

. It still took until 4:30 the first day. We shortened
walkthroughs further the 2nd day and managed to finish by 3:30, but we
were hustling butt all weekend long.


Meant to ask - again, simply because I'm curious - what time did you
start?
I was thinking if you divided the time in half, then added that on,
you'd get a rough idea of how long it would take to run 3 classes -
which in the case of your club, would be a lot earlier than midnight,
I'm sure! G
Now, I *have* heard people around here complain about some AKC
trials running until 6 or 7 with only 2 runs. What I gather, from
buddies who do AKC in this area, is that trials put on by *agility*
clubs, like yours, are usually reasonably efficiently run. The ones put
on by breed clubs or obed. clubs, especially those who are looking at
agility as money-maker, are the ones that are more likely to be badly
run - and I'm sure those are the sort that the on-list groaners were
referring to.


Also (again, just because I'm curious from a statistical point of
view) how many runs/dogs was your trial?
Thinking about the 4-run NADAC trials I've been to which finished
3:30 or so, they were all run in the 2-ring 2-trial format - which
means that each ring is effectively a half-size trial, which of course
takes less time.
The really quick ones are also divided into large dog and small dog
rings, which speeds things up because you have less jump height
changes. Last outdoor trial I went to, Rocsi was the *only* 12" dog in
Elite, because I was assigned to the large dog ring. I don't think
you could do that with an AKC trial, at least not at the Excellent
level, since it would skew the MACH-points-via-placement thing,
wouldn't it?

  #18  
Old December 22nd 05, 09:32 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced


"cimawr" wrote in message
oups.com...


Now, here's a curiosity question: How are scores marked on AKC score
sheets? And how are they entered in the software?


Scribes will write the appropriate fault (R, W, F, T, E) for every
occurrence, and the time. I haven't scored myself but I know that each fault
is shown on the scores posting so they must be entered either individually
or cumulatively per fault type (2 Rs, 3 Ws, etc.)

With the NADAC ones, the scribe simply puts down a hash mark in the
correct column, and when the score is entered, all you have to do is
count the hash marks - IOW, if somebody had five hash marks in the
10-pt fault box, I would simply type "5" into the appropriate box on
the computer screen. (That's assuming the club is using Agility
Unscrambled.)
Since this is done as the class is running, the score sheets are
usually printed out, and posted, within 5-15 minutes of the end of the
class.


Much easier, but you don't know where you faulted, which can be frustrating.
I had a clean (or so I thought) NADAC run with a 20 point fault on the score
sheet, and nobody knew why. Obviously that can happen in AKC too, but at
least if it says F I know it was a knocked bar (or missed contact or
skipping an obstacle, but those I can tell pretty well at the time, whereas
sometimes a bar comes down and I don't see it.)


And nobody around here awards ribbons; they're self-serve. Most of the
clubs use a software program (again, Agility Unscrambled) which prints
out ribbon labels, and what's normallydone is to post the labels along
with the score sheets. Those who want ribbons get their own and put
labels on, those who don't just take the labels and stick them in
record books.
Saves LOTS of time, and also expense on ribbons.


About half the clubs here do self-serve, the other half label the ribbons
for you, but nobody ever gives them out in a formal process, they just lay
them on the table for you to pick up.


Also, just out of curiosity, do AKC clubs in your area use assistant
scribes?


In my area, no. But with electronic timing becoming the norm out here, there
isn't really any use for one. When I did the AS job in NADAC, it was
speedier, because I'd have one stopwatch to record the time and clear it so
I could swap it out with the timer for the next dog. However, electronic
timing (and good gate stewards) have made things run so fast that generally
the timer/scribe are ready for the next dog within a second of the prior dog
clearing the finish line.


and
wheel them for 3 different heights, so 3 different wheels,


Aha. That, too, has to add significant time.


I think they only wheel them twice, though, once for small and once for
large. One of the new AKC changes is giving the 16" class an average of the
large and small yardage, which should equate to a more fair SCT. 16" dogs
previously had the tightest SCT because they are running a much larger path
but were given the yardage for the smaller dogs. Of course times have been
tightened as well, at least in standard, so the overall change will probably
not be noticeable, but it is now more balanced as the other heights have had
time changes too.

Christy


  #19  
Old December 22nd 05, 09:44 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced


"cimawr" wrote in message
ups.com...

Now, I *have* heard people around here complain about some AKC
trials running until 6 or 7 with only 2 runs. What I gather, from
buddies who do AKC in this area, is that trials put on by *agility*
clubs, like yours, are usually reasonably efficiently run. The ones put
on by breed clubs or obed. clubs, especially those who are looking at
agility as money-maker, are the ones that are more likely to be badly
run - and I'm sure those are the sort that the on-list groaners were
referring to.


We have a venue in So. Cal. that doesn't allow dogs in until 10:00 a.m. (its
a fairgrounds with horses training in the morning.) So bigger shows there
tend to run until 8:00 p.m. However, most shows that reach capacity (330
runs/judge, usually 2 judges) are done by 5 p.m. and smaller shows (one
judge, or an unfilled 2 judge show, 300-400 runs) by 3:00. The trial
secretaries usually have a dedicated pool of workers and sometimes hire
youth groups so they are fairly efficient. The only shows that really run
poorly are the ones like you describe above, where they don't worry about
workers until it is the day of the show, where the club members take the
"best" jobs (ribbons, hospitality, timing, basically low responsibility
stuff) and they expect volunteers to fill in random worker spots.
Fortunately, those shows are few and far between now.



Also (again, just because I'm curious from a statistical point of
view) how many runs/dogs was your trial?
Thinking about the 4-run NADAC trials I've been to which finished
3:30 or so, they were all run in the 2-ring 2-trial format - which
means that each ring is effectively a half-size trial, which of course
takes less time.
The really quick ones are also divided into large dog and small dog
rings, which speeds things up because you have less jump height
changes. Last outdoor trial I went to, Rocsi was the *only* 12" dog in
Elite, because I was assigned to the large dog ring. I don't think
you could do that with an AKC trial, at least not at the Excellent
level, since it would skew the MACH-points-via-placement thing,
wouldn't it?


They wouldn't do that for a variety of reasons, including the MACH points
things. It just wouldn't work within the AKC format, because the numbers
don't fall all that evenly between big dogs and little dogs - it would have
to be something like 8"/ 12"/24", and 16"/20", plus divvying up the
preferred dogs and the new 26" - just not logistically simple. As long as
ALL the dogs in one height were competing it wouldn't matter for MACH
Points, but you couldn't do like you mentioned and let someone run their
smaller dog against no competition. Plus, I think the time spent changing
the ring from standard to jumpers or vice versa would eat up any benefit
from avoiding jump height changes.
Still sounds like a fun way to run NADAC, but the clubs out here never tried
it.

Christy


  #20  
Old December 22nd 05, 10:07 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default New AKC Agility regs announced


Christy wrote:

Scribes will write the appropriate fault (R, W, F, T, E) for every
occurrence,


Ok, now I'm really in Elephant's Child mode. ;-D

How does the scribe know what the fault was?? Or does the judge have
a different signal for each type of fault, rather than signaling points
(5, 10, 20, E) as they do in NADAC?
And does the scribe actually write down the letter, or are there hash
mark columns for each type? (If the former, I can see where it could
REALLY slow things down when it got the score table, depending on the
scribe's handwriting. G)

and the time.


Erm. My brain parsed that as meaning that the scribe was writing down
the time when the fault occurred... then common sense took over, and
told me you meant the scribe writes down the dog's time at the end of
the run. :-D

Much easier, but you don't know where you faulted, which can be frustrating.
I had a clean (or so I thought) NADAC run with a 20 point fault on the score
sheet, and nobody knew why.


Yes, that's extremely frustrating. Most of the time I know coming
off the course what went wrong, but every now and then I have a mystery
fault, which I *hate* - I don't like having a fault and not knowing
why.
My dogs are distinctive enough (and the judges know me well enough)
that I can usually find out by asking before the next class if none of
my friends saw the run, but sometimes the judges don't remember, or
they're busy and I don't want to bother them...



However, electronic timing (and good gate stewards) have made things run so fast that generally the timer/scribe are ready for the next dog within a second of the prior dog
clearing the finish line.


ET, if it's functioning properly, is *definitely* the fastest method
around.

I think they only wheel them twice, though, once for small and once for
large. One of the new AKC changes is giving the 16" class an average of the
large and small yardage, which should equate to a more fair SCT. 16" dogs
previously had the tightest SCT because they are running a much larger path
but were given the yardage for the smaller dogs.


I remember seeing comments to that effect in the past, yes.

 




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