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It's happened again...



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 5th 05, 04:35 PM
White Monkey
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Default It's happened again...

So Saskia has been nothing but love and deference toward Walter until today.
Well, also today except for one moment. Someone at the pet store gave her a
new squeaky toy, and she was on the sofa with it (it has now been reduced to
rubble by her and thrown away by me). Walter approached, with me right
there, and Saskia snapped the air about 2 feet from his face.

It was obvious she was just issuing a little warning, but she shouldn't have
felt comfortable with that. I was on the phone and reacted instinctively,
whapping her not too hard on the nose with the paper I was holding. She was
very sorry. I took the toy away from her and gave it back a few times,
praising when there was no reaction.

I was planning on desensitizing Saskia to Walter touching her things by
praising for no reaction when he got near, but her trainer feels this would
be a bad idea. She suggested making it very clear to Walter that Saskia's
things are no-go, but when we did this it seemed to make Saskia more
concerned when he did touch something. So the trainer now suggests trying to
ignore it and not act like anything special is happening when he handles her
things.

Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting Saskia on
the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we move) and stop
letting her into our bedroom but especially on our bed. She thinks these two
things are "the most damaging things we've done" in bringing Saskia up with
a baby. My husband is 100% against either thing having anything to do with
it. He says this advice and attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know
Danes, that Danes get on furniture, it's just what they do.

The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and crate
her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter are in the same
room (now he goes into the playpen but of course he'll outgrow it soon
enough). We will be doing this at the new place, and we will create a
Saskia-only "safe zone" for her.

How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks'
suggestions now that it has happened again?

Thanks,
Katrina


  #2  
Old October 5th 05, 05:24 PM
Janet Puistonen
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Default

White Monkey wrote:
So Saskia has been nothing but love and deference toward Walter until
today. Well, also today except for one moment. Someone at the pet
store gave her a new squeaky toy, and she was on the sofa with it (it
has now been reduced to rubble by her and thrown away by me). Walter
approached, with me right there, and Saskia snapped the air about 2
feet from his face.
It was obvious she was just issuing a little warning, but she
shouldn't have felt comfortable with that. I was on the phone and
reacted instinctively, whapping her not too hard on the nose with the
paper I was holding. She was very sorry. I took the toy away from her
and gave it back a few times, praising when there was no reaction.

I was planning on desensitizing Saskia to Walter touching her things
by praising for no reaction when he got near, but her trainer feels
this would be a bad idea. She suggested making it very clear to
Walter that Saskia's things are no-go, but when we did this it seemed
to make Saskia more concerned when he did touch something. So the
trainer now suggests trying to ignore it and not act like anything
special is happening when he handles her things.


That seems like a sensible course of action. No need to inject stress into
the situation if it isn't there. (What do you do when the dog picks up the
child's toys?)

Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting
Saskia on the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we
move) and stop letting her into our bedroom but especially on our
bed. She thinks these two things are "the most damaging things we've
done" in bringing Saskia up with a baby. My husband is 100% against
either thing having anything to do with it. He says this advice and
attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know Danes, that Danes get
on furniture, it's just what they do.


That's nonsense. Any breed of dog will get up on the furniture if you allow
it, or keep off the furniture if you don't allow it. I personally have never
allowed my dogs--GSDs and Goldens--to get up on the furniture. They have the
run of the house, they are always with us--but the furniture is for the
humans. I 'm far from a neat freak, or I wouldn't have dogs who shed so
heavily, but I don't want to live in a kennel. That's just as bad to me as
people who allow their small children to trash the furniture. Neither the
dogs nor the children will ever learn to coexist with nice things if they
aren't taught. But YMMV.

I also see no reason to allow dogs up on the bed. My dogs sleep in the
bedroom with me from day one, but they have their own bed. But I don't see
any reason to ban them from the bedroom unless you have allergies.

In my experience, there tends to be a certain degree of sibling rivalry
between a young dog and a baby/toddler. I can see that letting the dog sleep
on the bed with you might give the dog the idea that she outranks the child.

The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and
crate her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter
are in the same room (now he goes into the playpen but of course
he'll outgrow it soon enough).


Sounds like a good idea to me. I would never leave a baby or toddler alone
in a room with a dog, especially a large dog who has snapped at him.

We will be doing this at the new
place, and we will create a Saskia-only "safe zone" for her.


Sounds to me as if the baby is the one at risk. What message are you sending
the dog if you make a big deal each time the child touches her toys--have
you trained the dog not to touch the child's toys?--and if the child is the
one "crated" and the dog is free?

How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you
folks' suggestions now that it has happened again?


Let's face it: a Dane could kill or maim a two year old child in an instant.
I'd be concerned. You need to nip this in the bud.


  #3  
Old October 5th 05, 05:45 PM
Ronna
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Default


White Monkey wrote:

How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks'
suggestions now that it has happened again?

Thanks,
Katrina


I agree with your trainer.

Your dog should lose all furniture priveleges, and no, that is not
impossible to do with a Dane My Dane isn't allowed on furniture, he
has his own bed, and he's never complained about it

Your trainers suggestions are all right on, things I would suggest as
well. A Dane bite to a baby could be fatal, this is nothing to beat
aroud the bush about.

As an added measure, I would also put your dog on NILIF. I'm sure you
are familiar with that, if not, heres a link:http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

Always make sure you are in the same room as the dog and baby,
supervision is key here. Teach your baby to never approach a dog who
is eating, or chewing bone, or toy. This is for his safety. Good
luck

  #4  
Old October 5th 05, 06:34 PM
White Monkey
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Default

Thanks. I'll reply to both of you in more detail later, but I did want to
assure you that a) the baby and dog are never alone together, even across
the room from me, and b) the dog simply does not pick up the baby's toys.
Once or twice she's poked one, but we simply say "leave it" in a reasonable
tone and she does.
--Katrina


  #5  
Old October 5th 05, 08:32 PM
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Default

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:35:39 +0200 White Monkey whittled these words:
Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting Saskia on
the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we move) and stop
letting her into our bedroom but especially on our bed. She thinks these two
things are "the most damaging things we've done" in bringing Saskia up with
a baby. My husband is 100% against either thing having anything to do with
it. He says this advice and attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know
Danes, that Danes get on furniture, it's just what they do.


The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and crate
her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter are in the same
room (now he goes into the playpen but of course he'll outgrow it soon
enough). We will be doing this at the new place, and we will create a
Saskia-only "safe zone" for her.


How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you folks'
suggestions now that it has happened again?


None of us are there. The trainer is. None of us have met the dog, the
trainer has. If you have good reason to believe the trainer is not
competent, then find a competent trainer. But dog should not be snapping
in reaction to anything the child does. It does not make the dog "bad"
but it does mean the situation is serious.

I don't think that letting dogs on the bed is "damaging" in the abstract.
But if the dog needs a clear structure of its place in the pack,
displacing the dog from the bed is part of the prescription. Set things
up so that Sasika can be successful. Make it hard for her to make a
mistake. You can do this with love and affection, but good management
will develop good habits and keep everyone safe and happy.


--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/
  #6  
Old October 5th 05, 09:23 PM
Marcel Beaudoin
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Default

"White Monkey" wrote in
:

How worried should we be (the trainer says "very",) and what are you
folks' suggestions now that it has happened again?


I am not going to comment. Others have and I don't know enough about the
situation to even warrant a guess. However, I have a question:

How close were you or your husband when Saskia snapped/growled at Walter?
Is it possible that Saskia is jealous of the time that Walter is spending
with you or hubby?

As for the trainer, whether or not the trainer is competent is not the
question. The question should be whether you and your husband feel
confident in what the trainer is doing. After what she said and your
husband's response, I get the impression that he would have a great deal of
difficulty following any requests from this lady...

--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
  #7  
Old October 5th 05, 09:39 PM
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Default

On 5 Oct 2005 20:23:05 GMT Marcel Beaudoin whittled these words:

As for the trainer, whether or not the trainer is competent is not the
question. The question should be whether you and your husband feel
confident in what the trainer is doing. After what she said and your
husband's response, I get the impression that he would have a great deal of
difficulty following any requests from this lady...


A lot of people will trainer shop until they hear what they want to hear.
The trainer may be completely out to lunch but the people happily follow
the advice because they have already decided what they want. They have a
LOT of confidence in the incompetent trainer because they are hearing what
they want to hear. Sometimes the bottom line is the person needs to open
their ears and hear. Sometimes prescriptions are unpleasant, but they
save lives and families. Kind of like grieving there are usually steps or
phases involved in a person dealing with (or not) dog behavior issues.
Katrina's family has reached the denial stage "yes, but ..." etc


--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/
  #8  
Old October 5th 05, 09:48 PM
Marcel Beaudoin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote in :

On 5 Oct 2005 20:23:05 GMT Marcel Beaudoin
whittled these words:

As for the trainer, whether or not the trainer is competent is not
the question. The question should be whether you and your husband
feel confident in what the trainer is doing. After what she said and
your husband's response, I get the impression that he would have a
great deal of difficulty following any requests from this lady...


A lot of people will trainer shop until they hear what they want to
hear. The trainer may be completely out to lunch but the people
happily follow the advice because they have already decided what they
want. They have a LOT of confidence in the incompetent trainer because
they are hearing what they want to hear. Sometimes the bottom line is
the person needs to open their ears and hear. Sometimes prescriptions
are unpleasant, but they save lives and families.


Ideally, you have confidence in the trainer and in their methods. However,
it doesn't look like it in this case. I don't know how well her husband
will react to any suggestions by their current trainer. With a baby in the
picture, I am loathe to suggest that she stick with the current trainer if
hubby will only be paying lip service to what the trainer suggests. Perhaps
if another trainer suggests the same thing, it might sink in to the husband
that in this case, what the trainer is suggesting is the appropriate action
to take. (Note that I am not saying that what the trainer suggested is the
only course of action. Like I mentioned previously, I don't know near
enough about the situation to even hazard a guess, and my very limited
skills/knowledge of training in general would prevent me from making any
other comments.)

--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
  #9  
Old October 5th 05, 10:09 PM
Janet B
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:35:39 +0200, "White Monkey"
, clicked their heels and said:


I was planning on desensitizing Saskia to Walter touching her things by
praising for no reaction when he got near, but her trainer feels this would
be a bad idea. She suggested making it very clear to Walter that Saskia's
things are no-go, but when we did this it seemed to make Saskia more
concerned when he did touch something.


I like to teach kids and dogs to play with toys together. "Help"
Walter throw a ball for her for instance.

So the trainer now suggests trying to
ignore it and not act like anything special is happening when he handles her
things.


The dog has to accept him handling her things. But not necessarily
when they are in her mouth (not right now anyway).

Saskia's trainer feels that we need to immediately stop letting Saskia on
the sofa (we're throwing this one away anyway before we move) and stop
letting her into our bedroom but especially on our bed. She thinks these two
things are "the most damaging things we've done" in bringing Saskia up with
a baby. My husband is 100% against either thing having anything to do with
it. He says this advice and attitude proves the trainer doesn't really know
Danes, that Danes get on furniture, it's just what they do.


Dogs "do" other things to - bite, chew, jump - are those all
acceptable to him as well? I agree with getting her off the couch and
bed. The bedroom is a little less clear.

The trainer also said we should get Saskia used to a crate again, and crate
her whenever we can't be right there while Saskia and Walter are in the same
room (now he goes into the playpen but of course he'll outgrow it soon
enough). We will be doing this at the new place, and we will create a
Saskia-only "safe zone" for her.


I disagree - they need to learn to live in a normal flow.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album
  #10  
Old October 6th 05, 06:42 AM
White Monkey
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Default

Hey, folks, I never said or implied that I am questioning this trainer's
competence. I am a little offended that people have leaped to this
conclusion or that we are in some sort of denial (OK, my husband was about
the bed thing, but that's all). By posting here I wanted to gather advice
and suggestions because as people here are fond of pointing out the person
who knows my dog best is me.

The trainer--and I am not saying I expect people to know this--met her once
when she was about 10 months old, evaluated her, gave us some pointers on
working on her stay and on not pulling on the lead, and said she wasn't
ready to join the group classes, urged us to work on these things on our
own, and said Saskia has a nice, soft temperament. I then consulted her once
by phone about SA, and another time about Saskia's sudden fear of bridges.
Then her partner came out to the park and worked with me on the bridge
thing, now over. Then the trainer called me and told me to try Bach Flower
remedies for Saskia's general anxiety. That was the last contact, about five
months ago, with her. So first of all I am not rejecting her, but second of
all she is not someone who has worked with this dog closely. She told me
that ANY dog that gets on furniture will "think it's dominant" and OK, so I
question this sort of blanket statement--that doesn't mean I'm not going to
try the advice.

One reason I posted here and on the Danes groups was to seek support *if it
was there* for not letting her on the furniture--I explicitly did not say
that's what I was looking for because I wanted honest takes on that advice.
I have now heard that agreed with by enough people that my husband is
willing to do it--I have explained that people are saying that a dog with
certain issues, and neither of us has owned quite such an anxious dog
before, can have a real need for extra structure, and that the furniture
thing can be a useful and integral tool thereto.

I've come to rely on networking here for help framing problems and working
out the best solutions to them. I don't know where people got the idea that
I was complaining about the trainer or something.

Oh, Marcel--I was right there, on the phone but within arm's reach of them
both. Walter was cruising around the coffee table. I acknowledge the
possibility of that sort of jealousy but haven't seen any definitive example
of it--she does love the baby and likes to stay as close to him as
possible, lying quietly, while he's playing, and she licks his head and wags
at him a lot, never tries to get between us and him, and when we pick him up
and sit on the couch or something she never comes rushing over for attention
as I have seen with some dogs. But we are keeping an eye on it.

Meanwhile, the "Saskia safe zone"... well, last time I posted, here and on
the Danes group, one of the most common pieces of advice was to set up an
area, like her crate, where Saskia could retreat to get away from it all. Is
this, then, no longer considered good advice?

We realize that the last few weeks/months have been hard on Saskia. We are
taking steps now to remedy this, but the real changes will happen in 11
days, when we move. First, several months ago we were forced to leave our
big house in the suburbs for a small apartment in the most densely populated
section of the city. There is literally no room for her crate, nor for a dog
bed in the bedroom, etc. She adjusted very well. We got her out for a short
run every day and a long one 3 or 4 times a week. We played with her a lot
after the baby went to bed.

Then, recently, Danny had to go to Germany for six days. While he was gone I
discovered mold EVERYWHERE behind furniture, on random pieces of clothing,
under the baby's bed, etc. So Walter AND Saskia were neglected for a couple
of days while I threw stuff out, cleaned, and washed about 30 loads of
laundry, bought new baby furniture. Right on time, Walter got sick for the
first time--and I caught it as well. We both had fevers and stuffy heads,
coughs, etc. So no trips out to run until I got a friend to come over and
watch Walter while I charged down with Saskia to the closer and less fun
dog field, sick, in the pouring rain.

That's right about when my grandmother got very ill. She's OK but they need
24 hour home care there now, so some of the money that was helping us live
in this emergency-found, expensive, tiny apartment is going elsewhere now.
We started house-hunting, and Saskia didn't get out enough or get enough
stimulation, at which point the Food Fiasco happened--her skin problem is
retreating again now that we've found a suitable food after the source of
the one dried up overnight and we were forced to try another very high
quality food that turned out to have something she's sensitive to in it.
Then we had to run out to Haarlem a few times to finalize the deal on the
new rental, and meanwhile first Danny got sick, then I did, then him, them
me, and the baby is teething, so nobody feels very well. Then I took Saskia
to the Big Park, about a week and a half ago, where she ran around like a
goofball and had a great time and then drank some questionable water before
I could stop her, and so we were off to the vet when she started throwing
up and shivering after we got home. She's terrified of the vet (all vets).
Then strangers showed up and dropped off so many boxes that nobody can move
around the living room adequately, and I have ANOTHER damn flu (there's a
new one going around this year, everyone's down with it).

In 11 days, movers will show up, and my friend with the taxi van likewise.
We will all head out to Haarlem. The house there is more than twice as big.
It has a sizeable garden with an apple tree. Directly across the street is
a large park full of signs proclaiming it a dog-running park (very
different from a US dog park). We'll get her out for a run at least once a
day, a long run. We'll take her more places with us around town, because the
streets aren't so noisy and crowded and narrow and there are open-air
markets and all that. We'll play with her more again because we won't be
dealing with the mold crisis and all that. And we will be going "back to
work" with her--if we can find something that makes her feel like she's
pulling her weight, even if it's just a ten minute obedience session every
day or something, I'm sure that will help her. We'll also try to find a
kynologie club (not sure on the English) out there--the last one we tried to
visit took over 1 1/2 hours to get to, involving two buses, but she enjoyed
the classes--and then I went into labor. Saskia has seemed down to me
lately, and her self-confidence hasn't been at its best, and she's been
bored, and I do know we only have ourselves to blame.

Any suggestions further to giving her enough to do and enough stimulation
within a structure would be appreciated--sure we could just let her go out
and play with her basketball all day at the new place but we feel she could
really benefit from some structured activities. I'm afraid agility is
out--she has a very rarely symptomatic vertebral malformation that makes her
orthopedist want us to minimize twisting movements, hard play with other
dogs, stuff like that, and I'm betting some of the activities in agility
fall into that category.

--Katrina



 




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