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Dogs and anticipation?



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 3rd 05, 10:22 AM
Derek
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:49:08 -0400, dh@. wrote:

I feel quite certain that he would not only insist
no dogs are able to, but that no animals at all are
capable of it


You're on record as claiming animals cannot
anticipate things, even their own deaths, even
if those animals are witnessing the deaths of
others in their immediate vicinity;

"You might feel that they become afraid when
they see the pigs before them get killed, but that's
not the case either. I've seen pigs killed in front
of each other several times, and talked to other
people who have as well, and never have seen
or heard of an instance where a pig became
scared of its own slaughter after witnessing that
of another. In fact just the opposite...what I've
seen is them sniffing the dead pig, and drinking
its blood."
David Harrison May 3 2004 http://tinyurl.com/bzppt

But, seeing as you've now changed your mind
and accept the notion that animals can anticipate
things, why aren't you doing as earlier promised
and thinking "about the whole thing [killing
animals for food] in a different way"?

"My position is that they don't understand their
position. They don't know about death, they
don't know about meat, and they certainly
don't know they will be killed so humans can
eat them. If they did, I would think about the
whole thing in a different way"
David Harrison Mar 12 2001 http://tinyurl.com/bl2xa

"If the animals we raise for food knew the
situation they are in, it would change my way
of thinking about it a great deal."
David Harrison Sep 20 2003 http://tinyurl.com/b4lcs

According to you, animals can anticipate things,
which necessarily means they are aware of
their immediate situation. Have you started
thinking about your diet on them differently, or
were you lying again?
  #13  
Old July 3rd 05, 04:55 PM
Louis Boyd
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Elmo wrote:
said (on or about) 07/01/2005 14:31:

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote:

No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a
couple of seconds.


Can you back up that absurd sounding claim?


I don't know about anticipation but it's my experience that dog's have
very little sense of time. If I walk up to the mailbox and back (less
than 5 minutes) I get the same greeting as I do when I've been away all
day. So for a dog, anything more than a few minutes is roughly
equivalent to "forever".


For pet parrots the situation is different. If you return after a few
hours they'll greet you happily. If you've been gone several days
they'll typically bite you, perhaps for having been away so long. A few
hours later they're just as happy to see you as before.

But what does it matter. The concept of time is an artifact of human
civilization. What animal has any reason to care about time at all?
Sure, conditions change with time, but it's only present conditions most
animals have any reason to care about. Sure, some animals seem to
prepare for the future, but that doesn't really mean squirrels know that
it will snow eight months after nuts are plentiful. It only means the
squirrels which did for some reason decide to store more nuts than those
which didn't had a better survival rate.

Ants obviously aren't as intellegent as humans, but there certainly are
a lot more of them on this planet. Does that mean they're more
successful and better adapted?

  #15  
Old July 3rd 05, 08:31 PM
The Watcher
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:55:29 -0700, Louis Boyd
wrote:

Elmo wrote:
said (on or about) 07/01/2005 14:31:

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote:

No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a
couple of seconds.

Can you back up that absurd sounding claim?


I don't know about anticipation but it's my experience that dog's have
very little sense of time. If I walk up to the mailbox and back (less
than 5 minutes) I get the same greeting as I do when I've been away all
day. So for a dog, anything more than a few minutes is roughly
equivalent to "forever".


For pet parrots the situation is different. If you return after a few
hours they'll greet you happily. If you've been gone several days
they'll typically bite you, perhaps for having been away so long. A few
hours later they're just as happy to see you as before.

But what does it matter. The concept of time is an artifact of human
civilization. What animal has any reason to care about time at all?
Sure, conditions change with time, but it's only present conditions most
animals have any reason to care about. Sure, some animals seem to
prepare for the future, but that doesn't really mean squirrels know that
it will snow eight months after nuts are plentiful. It only means the
squirrels which did for some reason decide to store more nuts than those
which didn't had a better survival rate.

Ants obviously aren't as intellegent as humans,


No, not when measured by HUMAN standards.

but there certainly are
a lot more of them on this planet. Does that mean they're more
successful and better adapted?


Maybe on the Ant IQ Test it does.
If we can judge them by our standards, why shouldn't they judge us by theirs?
  #16  
Old July 3rd 05, 08:48 PM
dh@.
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:38:02 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:

****wit David Harrison wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote:


No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a
couple of seconds.



Can you back up that absurd sounding claim?


Shut up,


That's right, you can't. And do you know why? It's
because you are wrong. It's no wonder you're afraid to
try backing up your incredibly ignorant declarations Goo,
but just think how funny it would be if you tried.
  #17  
Old July 3rd 05, 08:48 PM
dh@.
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:47:18 +0100, Derek wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:49:08 -0400, dh@. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:53:22 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:31:38 -0400, wrote:
On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote:

No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a
couple of seconds.

Can you back up that absurd sounding claim?

If Goo comes back with a theory-- I'll dispute it with personal
experience.


Goo is short for Goobernicus.


You're so funny. You kill me every time.

It would be hilarious to see him
try to defend his beliefs, but he is most likely as afraid to try as
he is with a number of similar absurd sounding ideas that he
wants to promote. He also insists that animals are incapable
of feeling pride,


Then I take it you would have no objection to
the proposition that animals are capable of
rational thinking that in itself can recognise its
own value by inference alone.


You invent any stupid ass thing that you feel like, but it has
nothing to do with what I believe.

Well done, Dave,
although for the record I totally disagree with
any such proposition.

pride
n.
A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pride

Now you've acknowledge animals own dignity
and value,


That's a lie.

even to the point where they can
recognise it within themselves introspectively,
what justification do you have for taking this
dignity and value away from them by having
them farmed and slaughtered, simply for your
taste preferences? Does the concept of
dignity and inherent value mean that little to
you?


Whatever they may experience in that area, they
only experience due to their consumers.

and also disappointment.


Disappointment can only arise if one's
expectations are dashed, which necessarily
means a knowledge of the future and an
understanding of one's abilities. Do animals
have these capabilities?


They can anticipate some things and are aware of
some of their abiilities.

It's a level of ignorance
that is quite impressive. LOL...Darwin gives an excellent example
of his dog experiencing disappointment, and describes the dog's
expression of it and his change of behaviour as a result of it.


Darwin affirms the consequent when concluding
his dog can feel disappointment, simply by looking
into its face or observing its behaviour.

1) If the dog is disappointed, then he will do x, y, z.
2) He does x, y, z
therefore
3) the dog is disappointed.

Goo
quite amusingly insists that Darwin's observation is merely his own
projection of an emotion


He's right.


Darwin recognised disappointment in his dog, which is something
you Goos are too stupid to understand.
  #18  
Old July 3rd 05, 08:49 PM
dh@.
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:40:05 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:53:22 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:


On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:31:38 -0400, wrote:


On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote:


No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a
couple of seconds.

Can you back up that absurd sounding claim?

If Goo comes back with a theory-- I'll dispute it with personal
experience.



Goo is short for Goobernicus.


Goo is


Okay Goo, calm down, I'll finish it: Goo is short for Goobernicus
Gonad...the moron who thinks he's a genius.

your ****witted baby talk, an absolute disgrace
for a forty-six year old (pseudo) man to use.


It would be hilarious to see him
try to defend his beliefs, but he is most likely as afraid to try as
he is with a number of similar absurd sounding ideas that he
wants to promote. He also insists that animals are incapable
of feeling pride, and also disappointment.


Non human animals experience neither pride nor
disappointment. They don't have the mental ability to
feel either.


It has already been decided that pride and disappointment are
no more difficult to experience than anger Gonad.

I used to keep my small-game hunting jacket in an upstairs closet.
When I was hunting that day I would take it out of the closet and
carry it downstairs. My rabbit dog would go nuts until we left the
house together, me wearing the jacket.


The jacket was a signal. Animals respond to signals.
Dr. Pavlov demonstrated that over 100 years ago.

That isn't the same thing as anticipation. If you tell
your dog today you're going to go rabbit hunting
tomorrow, the dog will stare at you stupidly.


That's a different thing Goo, though you're quite obviously too
stupid to understand it. Here's a clue: just because a dog can't
understand English, doesn't mean he can't anticipate things that
he does understand.

Now she was an exceptional dog- a mutt from a mostly beagle and mostly
black & tan- so I don't doubt that there are some dogs [just like some
people] that can't anticipate any more than a couple seconds. But
the *No dogs* claim is definitely wrong.

Jim



I feel quite certain that he would not only insist no dogs are able
to,


No dogs experience "anticipation".


So, you are "brave" enough to insist that much, but you are still
too cowardly to explain why you "think" a dog can experience
aniticipation for a somehow predetermined period of time, and then
later insist that no dogs experience it at all. You will not explain
it because you can not explain it, and you won't try to explain it
because your are afraid--and rightly so--that it would only be more
proof of how stupid and ignorant you are. You're very consistent.
  #19  
Old July 3rd 05, 08:49 PM
dh@.
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 07:25:45 +1000, Brock Ulfsen wrote:

Rudy Canoza wrote:
The jacket was a signal. Animals respond to signals. Dr. Pavlov
demonstrated that over 100 years ago.


That isn't the same thing as anticipation. If you tell your dog today
you're going to go rabbit hunting tomorrow, the dog will stare at you
stupidly.


Demonstrate how programmed behaviour in response to stimuli in dogs
(bell = food) is any different to anticipation in humans "Let's go to
McDonalds" causes salivation and other observable behaviour...

...Brock.


It's all the same, but Goo hilariously can't even tell the difference
between an inability to understand English, and an inability to experience
anticipation. LOL...and he considers himself some type of authority on
animal emotions even though he can't pick up on an obvious distinction
like that. Hilarious!!! That's why he's Goobernicus.
  #20  
Old July 3rd 05, 08:50 PM
dh@.
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:22:12 +0100, Derek wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:49:08 -0400, dh@. wrote:

I feel quite certain that he would not only insist
no dogs are able to, but that no animals at all are
capable of it


You're on record as claiming animals cannot
anticipate things,


That's a lie.

even their own deaths, even
if those animals are witnessing the deaths of
others in their immediate vicinity;

"You might feel that they become afraid when
they see the pigs before them get killed, but that's
not the case either. I've seen pigs killed in front
of each other several times, and talked to other
people who have as well, and never have seen
or heard of an instance where a pig became
scared of its own slaughter after witnessing that
of another. In fact just the opposite...what I've
seen is them sniffing the dead pig, and drinking
its blood."
David Harrison May 3 2004 http://tinyurl.com/bzppt


That example, or whatever you think it was, in
no way addresses whether or not animals are capable
of anticipation.

But, seeing as you've now changed your mind
and accept the notion that animals can anticipate
things, why aren't you doing as earlier promised
and thinking "about the whole thing [killing
animals for food] in a different way"?

"My position is that they don't understand their
position. They don't know about death, they
don't know about meat, and they certainly
don't know they will be killed so humans can
eat them. If they did, I would think about the
whole thing in a different way"
David Harrison Mar 12 2001 http://tinyurl.com/bl2xa

"If the animals we raise for food knew the
situation they are in, it would change my way
of thinking about it a great deal."
David Harrison Sep 20 2003 http://tinyurl.com/b4lcs

According to you, animals can anticipate things,


Not things that they aren't aware of. Duh.

which necessarily means they are aware of
their immediate situation.


That's a lie.

Have you started
thinking about your diet on them differently, or
were you lying again?


 




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