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#11
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:49:08 -0400, dh@. wrote:
I feel quite certain that he would not only insist no dogs are able to, but that no animals at all are capable of it You're on record as claiming animals cannot anticipate things, even their own deaths, even if those animals are witnessing the deaths of others in their immediate vicinity; "You might feel that they become afraid when they see the pigs before them get killed, but that's not the case either. I've seen pigs killed in front of each other several times, and talked to other people who have as well, and never have seen or heard of an instance where a pig became scared of its own slaughter after witnessing that of another. In fact just the opposite...what I've seen is them sniffing the dead pig, and drinking its blood." David Harrison May 3 2004 http://tinyurl.com/bzppt But, seeing as you've now changed your mind and accept the notion that animals can anticipate things, why aren't you doing as earlier promised and thinking "about the whole thing [killing animals for food] in a different way"? "My position is that they don't understand their position. They don't know about death, they don't know about meat, and they certainly don't know they will be killed so humans can eat them. If they did, I would think about the whole thing in a different way" David Harrison Mar 12 2001 http://tinyurl.com/bl2xa "If the animals we raise for food knew the situation they are in, it would change my way of thinking about it a great deal." David Harrison Sep 20 2003 http://tinyurl.com/b4lcs According to you, animals can anticipate things, which necessarily means they are aware of their immediate situation. Have you started thinking about your diet on them differently, or were you lying again? |
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#13
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Elmo wrote:
said (on or about) 07/01/2005 14:31: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote: No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a couple of seconds. Can you back up that absurd sounding claim? I don't know about anticipation but it's my experience that dog's have very little sense of time. If I walk up to the mailbox and back (less than 5 minutes) I get the same greeting as I do when I've been away all day. So for a dog, anything more than a few minutes is roughly equivalent to "forever". For pet parrots the situation is different. If you return after a few hours they'll greet you happily. If you've been gone several days they'll typically bite you, perhaps for having been away so long. A few hours later they're just as happy to see you as before. But what does it matter. The concept of time is an artifact of human civilization. What animal has any reason to care about time at all? Sure, conditions change with time, but it's only present conditions most animals have any reason to care about. Sure, some animals seem to prepare for the future, but that doesn't really mean squirrels know that it will snow eight months after nuts are plentiful. It only means the squirrels which did for some reason decide to store more nuts than those which didn't had a better survival rate. Ants obviously aren't as intellegent as humans, but there certainly are a lot more of them on this planet. Does that mean they're more successful and better adapted? |
#14
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On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:02:01 -0600, Christian M. Mericle
wrote: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:31:38 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote: No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a couple of seconds. Can you back up that absurd sounding claim? I don't agree with that. When I give my dog a treat, I make her sit and stay. She knows what's coming and will wait until I tell her it's okay. If her anticipation only lastest 2 seconds, she would wander off. I used to have a dog that would actually get her leash and bring it to me when she wanted to go for a walk. Of course, she didn't always get her way, but she figured out that it worked often enough that it was worth trying. |
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:55:29 -0700, Louis Boyd
wrote: Elmo wrote: said (on or about) 07/01/2005 14:31: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote: No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a couple of seconds. Can you back up that absurd sounding claim? I don't know about anticipation but it's my experience that dog's have very little sense of time. If I walk up to the mailbox and back (less than 5 minutes) I get the same greeting as I do when I've been away all day. So for a dog, anything more than a few minutes is roughly equivalent to "forever". For pet parrots the situation is different. If you return after a few hours they'll greet you happily. If you've been gone several days they'll typically bite you, perhaps for having been away so long. A few hours later they're just as happy to see you as before. But what does it matter. The concept of time is an artifact of human civilization. What animal has any reason to care about time at all? Sure, conditions change with time, but it's only present conditions most animals have any reason to care about. Sure, some animals seem to prepare for the future, but that doesn't really mean squirrels know that it will snow eight months after nuts are plentiful. It only means the squirrels which did for some reason decide to store more nuts than those which didn't had a better survival rate. Ants obviously aren't as intellegent as humans, No, not when measured by HUMAN standards. but there certainly are a lot more of them on this planet. Does that mean they're more successful and better adapted? Maybe on the Ant IQ Test it does. If we can judge them by our standards, why shouldn't they judge us by theirs? |
#16
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:38:02 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:
****wit David Harrison wrote: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote: No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a couple of seconds. Can you back up that absurd sounding claim? Shut up, That's right, you can't. And do you know why? It's because you are wrong. It's no wonder you're afraid to try backing up your incredibly ignorant declarations Goo, but just think how funny it would be if you tried. |
#17
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:47:18 +0100, Derek wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:49:08 -0400, dh@. wrote: On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:53:22 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:31:38 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote: No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a couple of seconds. Can you back up that absurd sounding claim? If Goo comes back with a theory-- I'll dispute it with personal experience. Goo is short for Goobernicus. You're so funny. You kill me every time. It would be hilarious to see him try to defend his beliefs, but he is most likely as afraid to try as he is with a number of similar absurd sounding ideas that he wants to promote. He also insists that animals are incapable of feeling pride, Then I take it you would have no objection to the proposition that animals are capable of rational thinking that in itself can recognise its own value by inference alone. You invent any stupid ass thing that you feel like, but it has nothing to do with what I believe. Well done, Dave, although for the record I totally disagree with any such proposition. pride n. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pride Now you've acknowledge animals own dignity and value, That's a lie. even to the point where they can recognise it within themselves introspectively, what justification do you have for taking this dignity and value away from them by having them farmed and slaughtered, simply for your taste preferences? Does the concept of dignity and inherent value mean that little to you? Whatever they may experience in that area, they only experience due to their consumers. and also disappointment. Disappointment can only arise if one's expectations are dashed, which necessarily means a knowledge of the future and an understanding of one's abilities. Do animals have these capabilities? They can anticipate some things and are aware of some of their abiilities. It's a level of ignorance that is quite impressive. LOL...Darwin gives an excellent example of his dog experiencing disappointment, and describes the dog's expression of it and his change of behaviour as a result of it. Darwin affirms the consequent when concluding his dog can feel disappointment, simply by looking into its face or observing its behaviour. 1) If the dog is disappointed, then he will do x, y, z. 2) He does x, y, z therefore 3) the dog is disappointed. Goo quite amusingly insists that Darwin's observation is merely his own projection of an emotion He's right. Darwin recognised disappointment in his dog, which is something you Goos are too stupid to understand. |
#18
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:40:05 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:
dh@. wrote: On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:53:22 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:31:38 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:49:10 GMT, Goo wrote: No dog has any sense of anticipation longer than a couple of seconds. Can you back up that absurd sounding claim? If Goo comes back with a theory-- I'll dispute it with personal experience. Goo is short for Goobernicus. Goo is Okay Goo, calm down, I'll finish it: Goo is short for Goobernicus Gonad...the moron who thinks he's a genius. your ****witted baby talk, an absolute disgrace for a forty-six year old (pseudo) man to use. It would be hilarious to see him try to defend his beliefs, but he is most likely as afraid to try as he is with a number of similar absurd sounding ideas that he wants to promote. He also insists that animals are incapable of feeling pride, and also disappointment. Non human animals experience neither pride nor disappointment. They don't have the mental ability to feel either. It has already been decided that pride and disappointment are no more difficult to experience than anger Gonad. I used to keep my small-game hunting jacket in an upstairs closet. When I was hunting that day I would take it out of the closet and carry it downstairs. My rabbit dog would go nuts until we left the house together, me wearing the jacket. The jacket was a signal. Animals respond to signals. Dr. Pavlov demonstrated that over 100 years ago. That isn't the same thing as anticipation. If you tell your dog today you're going to go rabbit hunting tomorrow, the dog will stare at you stupidly. That's a different thing Goo, though you're quite obviously too stupid to understand it. Here's a clue: just because a dog can't understand English, doesn't mean he can't anticipate things that he does understand. Now she was an exceptional dog- a mutt from a mostly beagle and mostly black & tan- so I don't doubt that there are some dogs [just like some people] that can't anticipate any more than a couple seconds. But the *No dogs* claim is definitely wrong. Jim I feel quite certain that he would not only insist no dogs are able to, No dogs experience "anticipation". So, you are "brave" enough to insist that much, but you are still too cowardly to explain why you "think" a dog can experience aniticipation for a somehow predetermined period of time, and then later insist that no dogs experience it at all. You will not explain it because you can not explain it, and you won't try to explain it because your are afraid--and rightly so--that it would only be more proof of how stupid and ignorant you are. You're very consistent. |
#19
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 07:25:45 +1000, Brock Ulfsen wrote:
Rudy Canoza wrote: The jacket was a signal. Animals respond to signals. Dr. Pavlov demonstrated that over 100 years ago. That isn't the same thing as anticipation. If you tell your dog today you're going to go rabbit hunting tomorrow, the dog will stare at you stupidly. Demonstrate how programmed behaviour in response to stimuli in dogs (bell = food) is any different to anticipation in humans "Let's go to McDonalds" causes salivation and other observable behaviour... ...Brock. It's all the same, but Goo hilariously can't even tell the difference between an inability to understand English, and an inability to experience anticipation. LOL...and he considers himself some type of authority on animal emotions even though he can't pick up on an obvious distinction like that. Hilarious!!! That's why he's Goobernicus. |
#20
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:22:12 +0100, Derek wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:49:08 -0400, dh@. wrote: I feel quite certain that he would not only insist no dogs are able to, but that no animals at all are capable of it You're on record as claiming animals cannot anticipate things, That's a lie. even their own deaths, even if those animals are witnessing the deaths of others in their immediate vicinity; "You might feel that they become afraid when they see the pigs before them get killed, but that's not the case either. I've seen pigs killed in front of each other several times, and talked to other people who have as well, and never have seen or heard of an instance where a pig became scared of its own slaughter after witnessing that of another. In fact just the opposite...what I've seen is them sniffing the dead pig, and drinking its blood." David Harrison May 3 2004 http://tinyurl.com/bzppt That example, or whatever you think it was, in no way addresses whether or not animals are capable of anticipation. But, seeing as you've now changed your mind and accept the notion that animals can anticipate things, why aren't you doing as earlier promised and thinking "about the whole thing [killing animals for food] in a different way"? "My position is that they don't understand their position. They don't know about death, they don't know about meat, and they certainly don't know they will be killed so humans can eat them. If they did, I would think about the whole thing in a different way" David Harrison Mar 12 2001 http://tinyurl.com/bl2xa "If the animals we raise for food knew the situation they are in, it would change my way of thinking about it a great deal." David Harrison Sep 20 2003 http://tinyurl.com/b4lcs According to you, animals can anticipate things, Not things that they aren't aware of. Duh. which necessarily means they are aware of their immediate situation. That's a lie. Have you started thinking about your diet on them differently, or were you lying again? |
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