If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Ping: Liisa (Irish Parents, White Pups)
Liisa:
I don't know whether you follow threads over on rpdbehavior, so I'm bringing this question over here for you. I understand that Boxers, when bred for nice flashy Irish markings, can throw white pups. Why doesn't this happen in ESS? (Or Bostons? Or Mantle Danes?) -- Kate and Storm the FCR |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
KWBrown wrote in
. 4: I don't know whether you follow threads over on rpdbehavior, rpdbreeds is the only non-Finnish dog-related newsgroup I follow. I understand that Boxers, when bred for nice flashy Irish markings, can throw white pups. Why doesn't this happen in ESS? (Or Bostons? Or Mantle Danes?) Boxers do it because flashy ones in that breed are not true irish but "false irish". Their genotype is Ssw, one gene for solid and one gene for extreme white spotting. When you breed Ssw to Ssw, you get on average 25 % SS solid pups (no white or just very minor white), 50 % Ssw "false irish" and 25 % swsw extreme white spotteds. In some parts of Europe solid Boxers are just as accepted in show ring as flashy ones, and so most breedings are SS x Ssw and white pups are rare. In the parts of the world where only flashy ones are considered "show quality", most breedings are Ssw x Ssw and so every fourth Boxer pup will be white. Boxers don't have the irish pattern allele si at all in their gene pool. American Springers are nearly always homozygous for true irish, and their genotype is sisi. Just like Collies, Shelties, show-line Border Collies, Basenjis, Karelian Bear Dogs, Finnish Hounds and Bernese Mountain Dogs. When you breed sisi to sisi, you get just sisi irish pups and nothing else. Some Collies are genetically sisw "white factored". They either look just like regular irish, or irish with some extra white on sides. swsw pups can be born when two such sisw dogs are bred. I've heard that there are swsw Boston Terriers too, so I guess that some of them are sisw instead of sisi. English Springers (English English that is, not American English) are not irish but piebald spsp. There seems to be some selection towards less white, so most Springers do have well over 50 % of color. Their pattern sometimes resembles true irish, but they are still most often "just" dark piebalds and not irish. I have seen some rather white Springers with perhaps up to 75 % white, but they were most probably just light piebalds and not extreme white spotteds. I think that sw allele migth be found from the field/working Springer gene pool, but as they don't come to shows, I don't normally see them. I'm not sure of the genotype behind mantle Danes. "Officially" they are irish sisi, but swsw-looking pups are sometimes born. Most white and nearly white Danes are double merles MM, and swsw dogs (if born) are probably also classified as such. I've heard of one case when a white pup was born even when one parent wasn't merle or harlequin, and I know that it was called as "just another MM" and the black parent was assumed to be a cryptic merle. I have never heard of mantle x mantle breeding, and a couple of such breedings would easily show if the mantle pattern in this breed is sisi or Ssw. Liisa |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message . .. KWBrown wrote in . 4: American Springers are nearly always homozygous for true irish, and their genotype is sisi. Just like Collies, Shelties, show-line Border Collies, Basenjis, Karelian Bear Dogs, Finnish Hounds and Bernese Mountain Dogs. When you breed sisi to sisi, you get just sisi irish pups and nothing else. Some Collies are genetically sisw "white factored". They either look just like regular irish, or irish with some extra white on sides. From my understanding the biggest hint in guessing if a collie is white factored (sisw) from a non-white factored (sisi) is how much white is on the hind legs, especially if the white covers the stifles. For example, my Pablo has a lot of "chrome" (i.e. white) for a collie (an extra wide collar, a chest splash plus a blaze which is unusual nowadays), however his hind legs only has socks. He can be seen on: http://makeashorterlink.com/?T55A45449 . He is a sisi, no whites in his line. On this page http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/collie.htm , scroll down to Malcolm, the sable smooth. The front end he has just about as much white as Pablo but on his hind legs, the white extends up over his stifles and to his flank. He is a white factored collie, sisw. For the other end of sisi collie spectrum there is my Lucy. ( http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54A21449 ) For a collie, she has unusually minimal white markings (narrow collar, small socks on her legs, just a few white hairs on the tip of her tail). The vast majority of collies have all white or nearly all white front legs. I don't know of a picture on-line but one of her relatives doesn't have a collar at all, just a white throat, narrow chest strip of white, small socks in front, white toes in back and, like Lucy, just a few white hairs his tail tip. swsw pups can be born when two such sisw dogs are bred. And if you want to see a bunch of pretty white collies go to http://www.geocities.com/iwccwebhome/IWCCmemberphotos . More than anyone ever wanted to know about collie white patterning, I know . .. . Chris and her smoothies Flashy Pablo and Lucy in a plain brown wrapper |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
"Chris Jung" wrote in message .. . For the other end of sisi collie spectrum there is my Lucy. ( http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54A21449 ) For a collie, she has unusually minimal white markings (narrow collar, small socks on her legs, just a few white hairs on the tip of her tail). The vast majority of collies have all white or nearly all white front legs. I don't know of a picture on-line but one of her relatives doesn't have a collar at all, just a white throat, narrow chest strip of white, small socks in front, white toes in back and, like Lucy, just a few white hairs his tail tip. Aw, she's a pretty brown dog! My Wylie is even more brown - he has a star on the back of his neck (no collar, no face blaze) a white throat/chest strip, a few white toes and white tail tip. He's almost as brown as you can get! http://geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylietable2.jpg Christy |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
|
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"Chris Jung" wrote in
: From my understanding the biggest hint in guessing if a collie is white factored (sisw) from a non-white factored (sisi) is how much white is on the hind legs, especially if the white covers the stifles. I know that that is a good hint, and it might very well be the biggest. Other good hints a - white doesn't stay under belly, but starts crawling up on sides - not just white tail tip but up to 1/3 white tail - a white spot in the middle of back or high up un sides (very rare) - wider than normal collar (ok, this is not a very good hint). line. On this page http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/collie.htm , scroll down to Malcolm, the sable smooth. The front end he has just about as much white as Pablo but on his hind legs, the white extends up over his stifles and to his flank. He is a white factored collie, sisw. And look at that amount of white on tail, more than half of it! Never seen that much on a dog which has even some kind of irish pattern and not just "false irish". Liisa |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"KWBrown" wrote in message . 4... Liisa: I don't know whether you follow threads over on rpdbehavior, so I'm bringing this question over here for you. I understand that Boxers, when bred for nice flashy Irish markings, can throw white pups. Why doesn't this happen in ESS? (Or Bostons? Or Mantle Danes?) -- Kate and Storm the FCR White or almost completely white dogs, can appear in any Harle related litters. However, years ago, one seldom saw white puppies in any litters. This was because breeders actually bred dogs with much overall colour - ie. black torn patches covering most of the body. In the last maybe 20 or so years, the trend has been leaning toward dogs with fewer patches (incorrect according to the standard) and this has lead to thousands of white or nearly white dogs appearing. Many are now not genetically Harlequin at all. Then, add to that, all the idiots who are picking up Merlequins (white dogs with Merle patches) as cheap breeding stock, and the problem increases tremendously. We now have hundreds of white or nearly white, laterally and bilaterally deaf dogs, languishing in rescues, hoping for a home. The judges who continue to place overly white dogs up for points in the show ring, should be advised also, that they are playing a huge part in the ruin of a breed colour. I won't even go into those who breed and register Piebalds as "Harlequin"! The whole Harlequin colour pattern is quite likely to become lost if people don't wake up soon. EGD |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"Christy" wrote in message news:VTG0d.834$xH1.215@trnddc03... "Chris Jung" wrote in message .. . For the other end of sisi collie spectrum there is my Lucy. ( http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54A21449 ) Aw, she's a pretty brown dog! Thanks, Lucy is quite the dainty little thing and I've grown rather fond of the silly girl. My Wylie is even more brown - he has a star on the back of his neck (no collar, no face blaze) a white throat/chest strip, a few white toes and white tail tip. He's almost as brown as you can get! http://geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylietable2.jpg Ha! If I ignore the small amount of white on his ruff, he looks like an 'eency Tervern in that picture! Yep, Wylie clearly beats Lucy on the RPDBreeds minimal Irish white markings challenge. BTW, on Friday we started an agility class and are teamed up with a lady who has a big sheltie, Skye. Skye is almost the same height as Lucy (Lucy is 21" tall, Skye is about 20" but with the fluffy coat she looks as tall as Lucy). Skye has a stockier built than Lucy (shorter in the leg, and broader in the chest) and thus weighs more. We joke that Skye is a "Super-sized Sheltie" or a "Pseudo-Collie" and say that Lucy is one of them there rare "Smooth Shelties." Chris and her smoothies Big Pablo and Little Lucy |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
"Chris Jung" wrote in news:SXV0d.22870$2s.8638
@twister.nyroc.rr.com: We joke that Skye is a "Super-sized Sheltie" or a "Pseudo-Collie" and say that Lucy is one of them there rare "Smooth Shelties." I meet a woman at the beach with a small-ish Standard Poodle that she refers to as her "sub-standard." -- Kate and Storm the FCR |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
"Chris Jung" wrote in message ... Ha! If I ignore the small amount of white on his ruff, he looks like an 'eency Tervern in that picture! Yep, Wylie clearly beats Lucy on the RPDBreeds minimal Irish white markings challenge. I call him a Reverse Terv - he's brown where a Terv has a mask, and has the black overlay everywhere else where a Terv is brown. He *loves* Tervs, too (then again, there aren't many dogs he doesn't love!) BTW, on Friday we started an agility class and are teamed up with a lady who has a big sheltie, Skye. Skye is almost the same height as Lucy (Lucy is 21" tall, Skye is about 20" but with the fluffy coat she looks as tall as Lucy). Skye has a stockier built than Lucy (shorter in the leg, and broader in the chest) and thus weighs more. We joke that Skye is a "Super-sized Sheltie" or a "Pseudo-Collie" and say that Lucy is one of them there rare "Smooth Shelties." That's a real big girl! There is one Sheltie out here that measures 20" - the only one that makes Wylie look small (he's 18".) Wylie has some Collie friends that I call giant Shelties, but when you stand him next them you can clearly see he is nowhere near Collie size, and these aren't the biggest of Collie either. Like Schnauzers, these dogs should come in THREE sizes - Wylie would be the standard Shollie, your pups Giant Shollies, and those little things would be minis. Is anyone else able to see the difference in the heads when you stand Lucy and Skye next to each other? I try to point it out to people who don't know the breeds and they are baffled. \Christy |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Ping: Liisa, any ideas? | Shelly & The Boys | Dog breeds | 12 | December 8th 03 09:48 PM |
Lawsuit Docking | Darby Wiggins | Dog breeds | 23 | November 29th 03 06:19 AM |
Ping: Liisa | Shelly & The Boys | Dog breeds | 3 | November 21st 03 09:11 PM |