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Ping: Liisa (Irish Parents, White Pups)



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 10th 04, 07:06 PM
KWBrown
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Default Ping: Liisa (Irish Parents, White Pups)

Liisa:

I don't know whether you follow threads over on rpdbehavior, so I'm
bringing this question over here for you.

I understand that Boxers, when bred for nice flashy Irish markings, can
throw white pups.

Why doesn't this happen in ESS? (Or Bostons? Or Mantle Danes?)

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR
  #2  
Old September 11th 04, 05:40 AM
Liisa Sarakontu
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KWBrown wrote in
. 4:

I don't know whether you follow threads over on rpdbehavior,


rpdbreeds is the only non-Finnish dog-related newsgroup I follow.

I understand that Boxers, when bred for nice flashy Irish markings, can
throw white pups.
Why doesn't this happen in ESS? (Or Bostons? Or Mantle Danes?)


Boxers do it because flashy ones in that breed are not true irish but
"false irish". Their genotype is Ssw, one gene for solid and one gene for
extreme white spotting. When you breed Ssw to Ssw, you get on average 25 %
SS solid pups (no white or just very minor white), 50 % Ssw "false irish"
and 25 % swsw extreme white spotteds. In some parts of Europe solid Boxers
are just as accepted in show ring as flashy ones, and so most breedings are
SS x Ssw and white pups are rare. In the parts of the world where only
flashy ones are considered "show quality", most breedings are Ssw x Ssw and
so every fourth Boxer pup will be white. Boxers don't have the irish
pattern allele si at all in their gene pool.

American Springers are nearly always homozygous for true irish, and
their genotype is sisi. Just like Collies, Shelties, show-line Border
Collies, Basenjis, Karelian Bear Dogs, Finnish Hounds and Bernese Mountain
Dogs. When you breed sisi to sisi, you get just sisi irish pups and nothing
else.

Some Collies are genetically sisw "white factored". They either look just
like regular irish, or irish with some extra white on sides. swsw pups can
be born when two such sisw dogs are bred. I've heard that there are swsw
Boston Terriers too, so I guess that some of them are sisw instead of sisi.

English Springers (English English that is, not American English) are not
irish but piebald spsp. There seems to be some selection towards less
white, so most Springers do have well over 50 % of color. Their pattern
sometimes resembles true irish, but they are still most often "just" dark
piebalds and not irish. I have seen some rather white Springers with
perhaps up to 75 % white, but they were most probably just light piebalds
and not extreme white spotteds. I think that sw allele migth be found from
the field/working Springer gene pool, but as they don't come to shows, I
don't normally see them.

I'm not sure of the genotype behind mantle Danes. "Officially" they are
irish sisi, but swsw-looking pups are sometimes born. Most white and nearly
white Danes are double merles MM, and swsw dogs (if born) are probably also
classified as such. I've heard of one case when a white pup was born even
when one parent wasn't merle or harlequin, and I know that it was called as
"just another MM" and the black parent was assumed to be a cryptic merle. I
have never heard of mantle x mantle breeding, and a couple of such
breedings would easily show if the mantle pattern in this breed is sisi or
Ssw.

Liisa


  #3  
Old September 11th 04, 10:55 AM
Chris Jung
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"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message
. ..
KWBrown wrote in
. 4:

American Springers are nearly always homozygous for true irish, and
their genotype is sisi. Just like Collies, Shelties, show-line Border
Collies, Basenjis, Karelian Bear Dogs, Finnish Hounds and Bernese Mountain
Dogs. When you breed sisi to sisi, you get just sisi irish pups and
nothing
else.

Some Collies are genetically sisw "white factored". They either look just
like regular irish, or irish with some extra white on sides.


From my understanding the biggest hint in guessing if a collie is white
factored (sisw) from a non-white factored (sisi) is how much white is on the
hind legs, especially if the white covers the stifles. For example, my Pablo
has a lot of "chrome" (i.e. white) for a collie (an extra wide collar, a
chest splash plus a blaze which is unusual nowadays), however his hind legs
only has socks. He can be seen on: http://makeashorterlink.com/?T55A45449 .
He is a sisi, no whites in his line. On this page
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/collie.htm , scroll down to Malcolm, the sable
smooth. The front end he has just about as much white as Pablo but on his
hind legs, the white extends up over his stifles and to his flank. He is a
white factored collie, sisw.

For the other end of sisi collie spectrum there is my Lucy. (
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54A21449 ) For a collie, she has unusually
minimal white markings (narrow collar, small socks on her legs, just a few
white hairs on the tip of her tail). The vast majority of collies have all
white or nearly all white front legs. I don't know of a picture on-line but
one of her relatives doesn't have a collar at all, just a white throat,
narrow chest strip of white, small socks in front, white toes in back and,
like Lucy, just a few white hairs his tail tip.

swsw pups can
be born when two such sisw dogs are bred.


And if you want to see a bunch of pretty white collies go to
http://www.geocities.com/iwccwebhome/IWCCmemberphotos .

More than anyone ever wanted to know about collie white patterning, I know .
.. .

Chris and her smoothies
Flashy Pablo and Lucy in a plain brown wrapper



  #4  
Old September 11th 04, 06:48 PM
Christy
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"Chris Jung" wrote in message
.. .


For the other end of sisi collie spectrum there is my Lucy. (
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54A21449 ) For a collie, she has unusually
minimal white markings (narrow collar, small socks on her legs, just a few
white hairs on the tip of her tail). The vast majority of collies have all
white or nearly all white front legs. I don't know of a picture on-line

but
one of her relatives doesn't have a collar at all, just a white throat,
narrow chest strip of white, small socks in front, white toes in back and,
like Lucy, just a few white hairs his tail tip.


Aw, she's a pretty brown dog!
My Wylie is even more brown - he has a star on the back of his neck (no
collar, no face blaze) a white throat/chest strip, a few white toes and
white tail tip. He's almost as brown as you can get!
http://geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylietable2.jpg

Christy


  #6  
Old September 11th 04, 06:59 PM
Liisa Sarakontu
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"Chris Jung" wrote in
:

From my understanding the biggest hint in guessing if a collie is white
factored (sisw) from a non-white factored (sisi) is how much white is
on the hind legs, especially if the white covers the stifles.


I know that that is a good hint, and it might very well be the biggest.
Other good hints a
- white doesn't stay under belly, but starts crawling up on sides
- not just white tail tip but up to 1/3 white tail
- a white spot in the middle of back or high up un sides (very rare)
- wider than normal collar (ok, this is not a very good hint).

line. On this page http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/collie.htm , scroll
down to Malcolm, the sable smooth. The front end he has just about as
much white as Pablo but on his hind legs, the white extends up over his
stifles and to his flank. He is a white factored collie, sisw.


And look at that amount of white on tail, more than half of it! Never seen
that much on a dog which has even some kind of irish pattern and not just
"false irish".

Liisa


  #7  
Old September 11th 04, 11:41 PM
EGD
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"KWBrown" wrote in message
. 4...
Liisa:

I don't know whether you follow threads over on rpdbehavior, so I'm
bringing this question over here for you.

I understand that Boxers, when bred for nice flashy Irish markings, can
throw white pups.

Why doesn't this happen in ESS? (Or Bostons? Or Mantle Danes?)

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR


White or almost completely white dogs, can appear in any Harle related
litters. However, years ago, one seldom saw white puppies in any litters.
This was because breeders actually bred dogs with much overall colour - ie.
black torn patches covering most of the body. In the last maybe 20 or so
years, the trend has been leaning toward dogs with fewer patches (incorrect
according to the standard) and this has lead to thousands of white or
nearly white dogs appearing. Many are now not genetically Harlequin at all.
Then, add to that, all the idiots who are picking up Merlequins (white dogs
with Merle patches) as cheap breeding stock, and the problem increases
tremendously.
We now have hundreds of white or nearly white, laterally and bilaterally
deaf dogs, languishing in rescues, hoping for a home.
The judges who continue to place overly white dogs up for points in the show
ring, should be advised also, that they are playing a huge part in the ruin
of a breed colour.
I won't even go into those who breed and register Piebalds as "Harlequin"!

The whole Harlequin colour pattern is quite likely to become lost if people
don't wake up soon.
EGD


  #8  
Old September 12th 04, 11:56 AM
Chris Jung
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"Christy" wrote in message
news:VTG0d.834$xH1.215@trnddc03...

"Chris Jung" wrote in message
.. .


For the other end of sisi collie spectrum there is my Lucy. (
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54A21449 )


Aw, she's a pretty brown dog!


Thanks, Lucy is quite the dainty little thing and I've grown rather fond of
the silly girl.

My Wylie is even more brown - he has a star on the back of his neck (no
collar, no face blaze) a white throat/chest strip, a few white toes and
white tail tip. He's almost as brown as you can get!
http://geocities.com/dakota_and_bodhi/wylietable2.jpg


Ha! If I ignore the small amount of white on his ruff, he looks like an
'eency Tervern in that picture! Yep, Wylie clearly beats Lucy on the
RPDBreeds minimal Irish white markings challenge.

BTW, on Friday we started an agility class and are teamed up with a lady who
has a big sheltie, Skye. Skye is almost the same height as Lucy (Lucy is 21"
tall, Skye is about 20" but with the fluffy coat she looks as tall as Lucy).
Skye has a stockier built than Lucy (shorter in the leg, and broader in the
chest) and thus weighs more. We joke that Skye is a "Super-sized Sheltie" or
a "Pseudo-Collie" and say that Lucy is one of them there rare "Smooth
Shelties."

Chris and her smoothies
Big Pablo and Little Lucy


  #9  
Old September 12th 04, 06:19 PM
KWBrown
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"Chris Jung" wrote in news:SXV0d.22870$2s.8638
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

We joke that Skye is a "Super-sized Sheltie" or
a "Pseudo-Collie" and say that Lucy is one of them there rare "Smooth
Shelties."


I meet a woman at the beach with a small-ish Standard Poodle that she
refers to as her "sub-standard."

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR
  #10  
Old September 12th 04, 06:43 PM
Christy
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"Chris Jung" wrote in message
...


Ha! If I ignore the small amount of white on his ruff, he looks like an
'eency Tervern in that picture! Yep, Wylie clearly beats Lucy on the
RPDBreeds minimal Irish white markings challenge.


I call him a Reverse Terv - he's brown where a Terv has a mask, and has the
black overlay everywhere else where a Terv is brown. He *loves* Tervs, too
(then again, there aren't many dogs he doesn't love!)


BTW, on Friday we started an agility class and are teamed up with a lady

who
has a big sheltie, Skye. Skye is almost the same height as Lucy (Lucy is

21"
tall, Skye is about 20" but with the fluffy coat she looks as tall as

Lucy).
Skye has a stockier built than Lucy (shorter in the leg, and broader in

the
chest) and thus weighs more. We joke that Skye is a "Super-sized Sheltie"

or
a "Pseudo-Collie" and say that Lucy is one of them there rare "Smooth
Shelties."


That's a real big girl! There is one Sheltie out here that measures 20" -
the only one that makes Wylie look small (he's 18".) Wylie has some Collie
friends that I call giant Shelties, but when you stand him next them you can
clearly see he is nowhere near Collie size, and these aren't the biggest of
Collie either. Like Schnauzers, these dogs should come in THREE sizes -
Wylie would be the standard Shollie, your pups Giant Shollies, and those
little things would be minis.
Is anyone else able to see the difference in the heads when you stand Lucy
and Skye next to each other? I try to point it out to people who don't know
the breeds and they are baffled.

\Christy


 




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