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The old lady gets one more...



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 14th 06, 11:10 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default The old lady gets one more...

Title that is. Viva finished her Open Tunnelers title last weekend. For
those of you who don't know agility, or NADAC agility, that's a class of
tunnels only--no jumps. NADAC has a Veterans designation, but they don't
allow it for Tunnelers, so in order to Q the old dogs have to compete
head-to-head with the youngsters. Viva is almost 9 now and has been
retired from all AKC due to spondylosis and arthritis. She can't jump
24" any more, but can occasionally do 16" in Veterans NADAC Jumpers.
This past weekend she was having a bit of a "bad" weekend so I pulled
her from Jumpers. She was determined to do tunnelers though! I'm proud
to say that 2 out of 3 of her Open tunnelers runs would have Qd with
Elite times (over 5 yards per second). Sunday's run was just under, at
4.98 yps.

Viva's agility career is definitely on its last legs--until I started
her with a bit of NADAC this year I thought she was retired. I may enter
her in Elite Tunnelers a few times, and depending on how she's feeling I
only need 2 more legs to finish her Outstanding Elite Jumpers title (100
points needed, 10 points per Q, she has 80). She has one more leg to get
her Rally Advanced title, then maybe we'll finally go for that elusive
tracking title. She likes to keep busy.

Oh and Cala finished her Novice Tunnelers title with the fastest run of
all dogs of the day, over 6.5 yps. She was really working for me, but
has decided she hates slatless equipment...sigh...
  #2  
Old August 15th 06, 04:18 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default The old lady gets one more...


"Robin Nuttall" wrote:

. NADAC has a Veterans designation, but they don't allow it for Tunnelers,
so in order to Q the old dogs have to compete head-to-head with the
youngsters.


Erm... that's really not a very clear or accurate picture, for those who
don't know how NADAC agility works.
There is no "competing head to head" to qualify; in fact, there is no
competition between the dogs whatsover. The competition is against the
COURSE, not against other dogs; any and ALL dogs who do the course correctly
and under the stated SCT will qualify.
IOW, the fact that there are younger dogs in the class will not prevent any
older dogs from qualifying... or vice versa.

I'm proud to say that 2 out of 3 of her Open tunnelers runs would have Qd
with Elite times (over 5 yards per second). Sunday's run was just under,
at 4.98 yps.


Very cool! That's one of the side benefits of Tunnelers and T&G having the
same course at all levels; you can tell whether or not you would have Q'd in
a higher level.


Viva's agility career is definitely on its last legs--until I started her
with a bit of NADAC this year I thought she was retired. I may enter her
in Elite Tunnelers a few times, and depending on how she's feeling I
only need 2 more legs to finish her Outstanding Elite Jumpers title (100
points needed, 10 points per Q, she has 80).


Just out of curiosity, have you considered letting her run as a 16"
Skilled Veteran? (IOW, doing 12" jumps?) (I think I've asked that before,
but don't seem to have retained your answer.)


Oh and Cala finished her Novice Tunnelers title with the fastest run of
all dogs of the day, over 6.5 yps. She was really working for me, but has
decided she hates slatless equipment...sigh...


Also just out of curiosity, what are symptoms of this hate? G


  #3  
Old August 15th 06, 12:53 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default The old lady gets one more...

Sionnach wrote:
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:


. NADAC has a Veterans designation, but they don't allow it for Tunnelers,
so in order to Q the old dogs have to compete head-to-head with the
youngsters.



Erm... that's really not a very clear or accurate picture, for those who
don't know how NADAC agility works.
There is no "competing head to head" to qualify; in fact, there is no
competition between the dogs whatsover. The competition is against the
COURSE, not against other dogs; any and ALL dogs who do the course correctly
and under the stated SCT will qualify.
IOW, the fact that there are younger dogs in the class will not prevent any
older dogs from qualifying... or vice versa.


rolling eyes that's true of all agility, not just NADAC. But you are
competing head-to-head for placements. This differs from, say, AKC
Preferred, where the Preferred dogs get their own placements, titles,
and ribbons.




Just out of curiosity, have you considered letting her run as a 16"
Skilled Veteran? (IOW, doing 12" jumps?) (I think I've asked that before,
but don't seem to have retained your answer.)


Viva doesn't see 12" jumps as jumps. She's far more likely to plow
through and send poles flying than actually jump them. Ergo, we jump
16". When she's feeling good it's no problem. We'll see if she feels
good long enough to finish that O-EJC-V.



Oh and Cala finished her Novice Tunnelers title with the fastest run of
all dogs of the day, over 6.5 yps. She was really working for me, but has
decided she hates slatless equipment...sigh...



Also just out of curiosity, what are symptoms of this hate? G


This has been identical at our last 3 trials, and this weekend was a
textbook example. Cala has a down 2o2o as her contact.

This weekend, Chances had an aframe, she slid off and ended up doing her
down on the floor. Reg Round 1 she got the dogwalk but no stop or down,
and did a flyby of the aframe (hmmmm, the obstacle she did in
Chances...). Round 2, did the aframe but baled off the top, and also
baled the dogwalk. A 2nd attempt at the aframe produced the same
behavior so I just went on.

Now in AKC, this dog has not baled a contact or missed an obstacle in
almost 2 years. Most of the NADAC people I've met swear up and down that
no dogs ever have any trouble transitioning from slatted to slatless. So
far of my two dogs, both have had issues with slatless. Is slatless
wrong or bad? No. Do my dogs like it? No. Of course if I had slatless at
home I could work Cala through it. But I don't, and chances of me
getting enough money to buy a bunch of slatless equipment are pretty
much slim and none. So, Cala hates slatless. She could be taught to like
slatless, but I have no clue when that would happen. Since this behavior
has been identical at our past 3 trials, thinking it would go away with
time is no realistic...
  #4  
Old August 15th 06, 06:51 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Posts: 427
Default The old lady gets one more...


"Robin Nuttall" wrote:

rolling eyes that's true of all agility, not just NADAC.


The particular discussion was about NADAC agility, so I didn't think it
worth getting into the fine details about how MACH points in AKC, or Snooker
Super Q's in USDAA, CAN be affected by other teams' performance.

But you are competing head-to-head for placements.


Yep. But placements weren't under discussion, and as you know, in NADAC
placements are only for enjoyment, and have no relation to earning any
title. Yes, that's mostly true of the other venues, as well, but not true of
AKC Excellent or of USDAA Masters Snooker.


This differs from, say, AKC Preferred, where the Preferred dogs get their
own placements, titles, and ribbons.


Yes, but the NADAC equivalent of Preferred is Skilled - and there IS a
Skilled category in Tunnelers. And in AKC Preferred, older dogs also have to
"compete against" young dogs, just as they do in NADAC Skilled.
AKC doesn't even *have* a Veterans division, IIRC.

In any case, it's a moot point, because your original post stated that the
dogs were competing for *qualification*: "so in order to Q the old dogs
have to compete head-to-head with the youngsters."
Which simply isn't the case in agility, full stop.

Ack... out of time (I'm at home on my lunch break); will finish reply to
other parts later! G


  #5  
Old August 15th 06, 11:27 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default The old lady gets one more...


"Robin Nuttall" wrote:

Viva doesn't see 12" jumps as jumps. She's far more likely to plow through
and send poles flying than actually jump them. Ergo, we jump 16".


Ah, right. I think you did tell me that awhile back.


When she's feeling good it's no problem. We'll see if she feels good long
enough to finish that O-EJC-V.


That's how I feel about Brenin's one possible remaining Elite award (he has
no possible *titles* left to earn at that level G), which is his Superior
NATCH aka NATCH-3.
He needs 6 or 7 more Elite Regular Q's to get it, but since he's going on
12 and only does weaves when he's feeling his best, we may or may not get
there before I feel it's time for him to stop doing Proficient Elite
Regular.





This has been identical at our last 3 trials, and this weekend was a
textbook example. Cala has a down 2o2o as her contact.

This weekend, Chances had an aframe, she slid off and ended up doing her
down on the floor.


Also just out of curiosity/gathering data points, are the slatless in
question paint-with-sand, or are they rubber?

Now in AKC, this dog has not baled a contact or missed an obstacle in
almost 2 years. Most of the NADAC people I've met swear up and down that
no dogs ever have any trouble transitioning from slatted to slatless.


I really think that depends on the individual dog, AND on whether the dog
is making a full transition to doing *nothing* but slatless (as mine did,
with absolutely no issues - including Rocsi doing honkin' big square slats
at JRTCA trials) or have to transition back and forth.

And I'm now quite firmly of the opinion that transitioning, especially back
and forth, *does* lead to dogs sometimes confusing the DW and the teeter,
especially when encountering slatless for the first time - I've seen too
many dogs who are new to NADAC equipment, but not to USDAA and/or AKC
equipment, hesitating on the DW at the point where they think it should tip.

So
far of my two dogs, both have had issues with slatless. Is slatless wrong
or bad? No. Do my dogs like it? No.


Hmm. From the described symptoms, I'm not sure I'd've drawn the conclusion
that she *dislikes* them, but it certainly sounds like she's confused by
them... which could, of course, make her not want do do them. Don't you
wish sometimes you could just ASK them? G
It also occurs that WRT the frame, it may not be the lack of slats, or at
least *just* the lack of slats; for a big-strided dog, I suspect that the
lower height could also lead to not being sure of what to do.
IOW, do you think she may have learned a particular "muscle memory" of what
doing an A-frame should feel like, and doesn't like it when it doesn't match
up?

Of course if I had slatless at home I could work Cala through it. But I

don't, and chances of me getting enough money to buy a bunch of slatless
equipment are pretty much slim and none.

Purely as a point of note, you *could* try making just one side/end of the
A-frame/dogwalk slatless - that's what my former agility instructor did, and
it seems to work well; dogs from that club are very successful in going back
and forth between venues.
She also makes a practice of setting the A-frame to a different height -
and not just regulation heights - each week; the dogs become accustomed to
adjusting on the fly.

Since this behavior has been identical at our past 3 trials, thinking it
would go away with time is no realistic...


Doesn't seem so - which must be frustrating.


  #6  
Old August 16th 06, 12:02 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Posts: 427
Default The old lady gets one more...


"Sionnach" wrote:

The particular discussion was about NADAC agility, so I didn't think it
worth getting into the fine details about how MACH points in AKC, or
Snooker Super Q's in USDAA, CAN be affected by other teams' performance.


To clarify (I hope G) WRT my original reply - which on re-read, I see is
not at all saying what I meant it to:

I made the assumption, on reading the beginning of your original post, that
you'd meant to say "placements", rather than "Q"s.

I wrote the paragraph saying "dogs *don't* compete head-to-head for Q's"
for the purpose of clarifying things for those who don't anything about
agility, and was talking about ALL agility.
I *meant* to then go on and say that getting Q's is the same in all venues,
getting *titles* isn't, and were you possibly really talking about competing
for placements??...which, of course, doesn't matter in NADAC but does, in
some cases, matter in AKC and USDAA.
However, halfway through, I decided I didn't feel like getting into
details - but failed to go back and edit my beginning.

IOW, the "that's not how NADAC works" was actually in reference to
placements, but since I decided not to follow through with discussion of
same, I should have gone back and edited to make it clear that in talking
about getting Q's, I was talking across the board.









  #7  
Old August 16th 06, 03:44 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default The old lady gets one more...

Sionnach wrote:
IOW, the "that's not how NADAC works" was actually in reference to
placements, but since I decided not to follow through with discussion of
same, I should have gone back and edited to make it clear that in talking
about getting Q's, I was talking across the board.


Um, huh? Anyway, I wasn't typing clearly either. I meant head to head
for placements in tunnelers, no Veterans designation for tunnelers. I'm
not quite ready to go to skilled yet. I'm not sure I'll do elite
tunnelers with her, we'll see.

I worked Cala on contacts tonight and got her back to normal
performance. And Zipper is absolutely flying over the dogwalk, I can't
even begin to keep up with the little snot. He's now faster than Viva
and can honestly keep up with Cala. If I can get that turn of speed in
agility he's going to be something in the 12" class.
  #8  
Old August 16th 06, 05:09 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Default The old lady gets one more...


"Robin Nuttall" wrote:


Um, huh? Anyway, I wasn't typing clearly either. I meant head to head for
placements in tunnelers,


Which is what I *thought* you must have actually meant.
But I got my reply garbled up between A. wanting to clarify for those
who don't know anything about agility that there's no competition for Q's
(what you actually said) B. being puzzled as to why people care that much
about whether or not they place in NADAC (what you meant), when it has
absolutely no effect on whether or not you get your title C. dropping my
thought process halfway through because I was falling asleep.

I posted just before going to bed, and on re-read, I realize I was a LOT
more asleep than I thought I was...

no Veterans designation for tunnelers.


Not for dogs, anyway; Veteran *Handler* is another story.
The rationale being, of course, that since the dogs aren't jumping, they
don't need the time break... which may be the case for Tunnelers (Brenin,
when it's cold out and I give him an efficient line, can Q in Elite
Tunnelers despite being in "double digits"), but IMO is certainly not the
case in Weavers, and possibly also not in T&G.


And Zipper is absolutely flying over the dogwalk, I can't even begin to
keep up with the little snot. He's now faster than Viva and can honestly
keep up with Cala. If I can get that turn of speed in agility he's going
to be something in the 12" class.


Them little dogs are something, aren't they? G


  #9  
Old August 16th 06, 11:27 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds
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Posts: 1,344
Default The old lady gets one more...

Sionnach wrote:
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:



And Zipper is absolutely flying over the dogwalk, I can't even begin to
keep up with the little snot. He's now faster than Viva and can honestly
keep up with Cala. If I can get that turn of speed in agility he's going
to be something in the 12" class.



Them little dogs are something, aren't they? G


My mantra is "boy I hope I don't screw him up." Like I say, if I can get
that speed as we progress he should be pretty special.

He's a funny little boy. It takes forever to teach him some new
concepts--took 4 months to housebreak him, and about 4 months to really
teach the sit and down. Just this past week or so he's decided that
sitting and downing are really COOL. And since I've shaped them instead
of doing traditional training, it means he offers one, or the other, or
both whenever he wants something. At the moment he's offering a sit and
a down to everybody and everything--Cala, Viva, other dogs, strange
people, people he knows, even the dogwalk. And of course right now, when
he's thinking that sitting and downing are the coolest evah--he's
entered in breed shows. Where he will probably embarrass his handler by
offering a sit and a down to the judge...sigh...and she's not at all a
working person...(he's being handled by the breeder).
 




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