Blood Work for a dog with Seizures.. or Hannah's liver test was high....

"Alison" wrote in message
...
"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...


Can you give a link to the thread, please? I'd like to read what the
owner originally wrote and the other responses.
Thanks, Alison

It's ok I found it. I can't believe some of the answers!
alison

"Rocky" wrote in message
...
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.health:

what makes you think she needs a thyroid panel done?

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Lowthyroid.html


I find these statements a little bit disturbing in this page:

"There are more than 50 different symptoms of hypothyroidism. Classical
signs include chronic skin disease, hair loss, weight gain, lethargy and
slow metabolism, although behavioral changes (aggression, hyperactivity,
poor concentration, passivity, phobias, anxiety or neuromuscular events such
as seizures), and many other signs of metabolic imbalances also can occur.
This condition can mimic other disorders....Only one symptom may be present
to suspect low thyroid function. Seizures can be a symptom of thyroid
imbalance, which warrants performing a full thyroid panel...Only one symptom
may be present to suspect low thyroid function. Seizures can be a symptom of
thyroid imbalance, which warrants performing a full thyroid panel."

So basically anything can be a sign of hypothyroidism, and only one of these
symptoms need to be present to warrant running a 6-panel thyroid panel.
Combine this with the fact that (if I recall correctly) only she (and one
other lab) will do the 6 panel thyroid test, and I find this advice a
disturbing conflict of interest.

Any test is going to have a false positive/false negative rate. There is
also going to be spontaneous waxing and waning of symptoms (and a
non-spontaneous placebo effect as well).

The data that I've seen (and the veterinary epidemiologists I've spoken to
about it) would support the conclusion that she is likely to be putting a
lot of dogs on thyroid meds that don't need it.

Dale

"Nessa" wrote in message
...

the vet suggested milk thistle for her. 50-250 mg a day is the dose
but the vet said that the dosage amount was up to me.

I remember when my vet recommended I put my old guy on Milk thistle the dose
was somewhat higher than that (I think). Something in the back of my mind is
telling me I was giving him 3 pills a day, and it was a human preparation.
I'm stretching here, but I seem to recall the dose he gave me was
20mg/kg/day. (I think they were 250mg pills).

I can check for you if you'd like, or I'm fairly sure I posted it a while
back if you care to google it.

Dale

In article X1Yll.12264$PH1.9802@edtnps82,
Dale Atkin wrote:
The data that I've seen (and the veterinary epidemiologists I've spoken to
about it) would support the conclusion that she is likely to be putting a
lot of dogs on thyroid meds that don't need it.

I think you're being exceedingly sloppy in your use of
"likely," here. What's the actual false positive rate?

I do know that there's research that's been published in the
last several years finding that in Alaskan Huskies T3 and T4
can be low when the dog is not hypothyroid, but TSH will
be high. But so far that's just been found to be the case
in Alaskan Huskies, and again, TSH will be high in
hypothyroid dogs.

So what's the actual false positive rate, Dale?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

On 15 Feb 2009 12:36:27 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

In article X1Yll.12264$PH1.9802@edtnps82,
Dale Atkin wrote:
The data that I've seen (and the veterinary epidemiologists I've spoken to
about it) would support the conclusion that she is likely to be putting a
lot of dogs on thyroid meds that don't need it.

I think you're being exceedingly sloppy in your use of
"likely," here. What's the actual false positive rate?

I do know that there's research that's been published in the
last several years finding that in Alaskan Huskies T3 and T4
can be low when the dog is not hypothyroid, but TSH will
be high. But so far that's just been found to be the case
in Alaskan Huskies, and again, TSH will be high in
hypothyroid dogs.

So what's the actual false positive rate, Dale?

I don't know the statistics, but Dale isn't the only one who thinks
Dr. Dodds overdiagnoses hypothyroidism.

MS

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
I don't know the statistics, but Dale isn't the only one who thinks
Dr. Dodds overdiagnoses hypothyroidism.

I know a bunch of people who think that hypothyroidism is
widely overdiagnosed. I really don't know, but sloppiness
around numbers kind of irks me, esp. when it tends to feed
unsupported biases. But let's say that Dr Dodds has a 40%
false positive rate, which is really, really, really high.
Even with that high a rate, any diagnosis of hypothyroidism
might be wrong but probably isn't. It means that out of 10
diagnoses, 4 will be incorrect but 6 will be correct. Or to
put it in the terms Dale used, she's getting it wrong a
bunch of times - BUT, it remains the case that with even a
..4 false positive rate any given positive diagnosis is
probably correct. To suggest otherwise is misleading.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On 15 Feb 2009 12:36:27 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:


I don't know the statistics, but Dale isn't the only one who thinks
Dr. Dodds overdiagnoses hypothyroidism.

Dr. Dodds is generally not well thought of in the veterinary research
community. She's also very animal rights oriented (is a member of AVAR,
has testified in favor of breed bans, etc.) She is, as I understand
it, primary author of AVAR's list of canine genetic diseases, which is
wildly inaccurate and misleading, in that they take every possible name
for a disease and count it separately. As an example, the list shows
that Dobermans have Wobblers Disease, Cervical Vertebral Instability,
and Cervical spondyloarthropathy. It lists those as three different
Doberman diseases, yet it's all one disease. The list also takes ANY
problem ANY individual member of a breed has and extrapolates that to a
general breed genetic disease issue.

It's pretty darn ironic that she makes most of her money off of purebred
people. I won't touch anything she does with a 10' pole and she will
never see a penny of mine.

There are several labs that do full thyroid screens. I use Michigan
State. I do feel that looking at all the levels is very important,
*especially* cTSH. If TSH is elevated, that's a sign that the gland is
having to work hard. T3 and T4 alone are not indicative.

As for symptoms, I remember taking Jasper in because I sort of felt he
wasn't quite right. He had energy, a full haircoat, was eating well but
not overweight. His skin was fine, his temperament was fine. I couldn't
put my finger on it. So I made the vet pull blood and send it to MSU. We
could not believe it. I still have the paper here somewhere. T3 and T4
were zero. cTSH was 250. He should have been extremely ill if not dead.

Robin Nuttall wrote:


As for symptoms, I remember taking Jasper in because I sort of felt he
wasn't quite right. He had energy, a full haircoat, was eating well but
not overweight. His skin was fine, his temperament was fine. I couldn't
put my finger on it. So I made the vet pull blood and send it to MSU. We
could not believe it. I still have the paper here somewhere. T3 and T4
were zero. cTSH was 250. He should have been extremely ill if not dead.

I am a firm believer in the seat of the pants, the pit of the stomach,
the back of the neck.

If you think something is wrong, even subtly, get it checked.

Robin Nuttall wrote:


As for symptoms, I remember taking Jasper in because I sort of felt he
wasn't quite right. He had energy, a full haircoat, was eating well but
not overweight. His skin was fine, his temperament was fine. I couldn't
put my finger on it. So I made the vet pull blood and send it to MSU. We
could not believe it. I still have the paper here somewhere. T3 and T4
were zero. cTSH was 250. He should have been extremely ill if not dead.

I am a firm believer in the seat of the pants, the pit of the stomach,
the back of the neck.

If you think something is wrong, even subtly, get it checked.

Robin Nuttall wrote:
So I made the vet pull blood and send it to MSU. We
could not believe it. I still have the paper here somewhere. T3 and T4
were zero. cTSH was 250. He should have been extremely ill if not dead.

Chile had a set of thyroid results something like that. I didn't
believe it. (The vet should not have, either.) I had the vet
draw another blood sample. The results came back in the normal
range. The vet investigated and the lab admitted that several
mistakes had been made that week.

FurPaw

--
Don't believe everything that you think.

To reply, unleash the dog.