enforcing sit - should I ever do this?

I've been following a regime of purely positive reinforcement with my
German bred GSD pup Meika. She is 5.5 months old now - very
confident, smart puppy.

She behaves quite well in the absence of distractions. Knows lots of
stuff - sit, down, stay (30 - 45 seconds), by me, heel. I loose her
completely though when there is a distraction - car passing by / dog
being walked within sight. My dog is not food oriented enough that I
can distract her with even the tastiest treats (bacon) and lure her
into complying in these cases - been working on it for a while now.

Here's what the purely + training trainers whose classes whe have
attended never got across to me - how do I get her attention back with
treats / toys if she won't respond to them.

What has worked today - I am sorry to say - is when a distracting
situation is approaching or is just starting to be upon us, I say sit,
give her the hand signal and if she does not respond, I enforce it by
pushing her hind end down. I hate doing this but I do have her
attention back right away. Even works to get her out of her car
chasing habit - I put her in a sit before the car approaches / do a
stay and if she attempts to get up as the car passes by, I say "Ah Ah"
and put her back into the sit. I am not holding her down or anything
of the sort. Once she is seated, for the most part she does a great
job staying for the distraction to pass. We've been able to get past
the car chasing in one walk with this approach. I don't like
complelling my dog to do - any thoughts if I am making a mistake with
this approach?

Also I find that sometimes (started happenning in the last few weeks)
even in the most non distracting scenerio, I'll ask for a 'down' for
example and do the hand signal and she'll just look at my hand. I've
always tried to not have the treat in the hand since she learnt down
(I lured her at first when she was little to teach it). All of a
sudden she seems to have a "what's in it for me?" attitude :-). I am
very confident that she knows what I am asking for. Is this my pup
having a regression in training or is she being stubborn. Is there
anything I can do other than physically putting her into the down - I
don't want to start luring her with a treat again or she will always
wait to see it :-)

-Aamer

All of a
sudden she seems to have a "what's in it for me?" attitude :-)

She's going to be an adolescent soon, this is totally normal

Are you familiar with clicker training? You can shape a down very fast by
using this method.

Heres a link with some great
articles:http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

Hi Aamar,
I'm not a trainer and I believe in positive methods but in the
absense of other ideas I think I would do the same as you . If she
resists you when you push then I wouldn't do it . I found saying sit
like ssiTah effective.
If you have a confident dog I don't see whats wrong with ah-ah. I've
recently adopted an adult dog who is very submissive and I would not
use it on him .

--
Alison

"Aamer Sachedina" wrote in message
m...
I've been following a regime of purely positive reinforcement with
my
German bred GSD pup Meika. She is 5.5 months old now - very
confident, smart puppy.

She behaves quite well in the absence of distractions. Knows lots
of
stuff - sit, down, stay (30 - 45 seconds), by me, heel. I loose her
completely though when there is a distraction - car passing by / dog
being walked within sight. My dog is not food oriented enough that
I
can distract her with even the tastiest treats (bacon) and lure her
into complying in these cases - been working on it for a while now.

Here's what the purely + training trainers whose classes whe have
attended never got across to me - how do I get her attention back
with
treats / toys if she won't respond to them.

What has worked today - I am sorry to say - is when a distracting
situation is approaching or is just starting to be upon us, I say
sit,
give her the hand signal and if she does not respond, I enforce it
by
pushing her hind end down. I hate doing this but I do have her
attention back right away. Even works to get her out of her car
chasing habit - I put her in a sit before the car approaches / do a
stay and if she attempts to get up as the car passes by, I say "Ah
Ah"
and put her back into the sit. I am not holding her down or
anything
of the sort. Once she is seated, for the most part she does a great
job staying for the distraction to pass. We've been able to get
past
the car chasing in one walk with this approach. I don't like
complelling my dog to do - any thoughts if I am making a mistake
with
this approach?

Also I find that sometimes (started happenning in the last few
weeks)
even in the most non distracting scenerio, I'll ask for a 'down' for
example and do the hand signal and she'll just look at my hand.
I've
always tried to not have the treat in the hand since she learnt down
(I lured her at first when she was little to teach it). All of a
sudden she seems to have a "what's in it for me?" attitude :-). I
am
very confident that she knows what I am asking for. Is this my pup
having a regression in training or is she being stubborn. Is there
anything I can do other than physically putting her into the down -
I
don't want to start luring her with a treat again or she will always
wait to see it :-)

-Aamer

(Aamer Sachedina) wrote:
She behaves quite well in the absence of distractions. Knows lots of
stuff - sit, down, stay (30 - 45 seconds), by me, heel. I loose her
completely though when there is a distraction - car passing by / dog
being walked within sight.
Here's what the purely + training trainers whose classes whe have
attended never got across to me - how do I get her attention back with
treats / toys if she won't respond to them.

Very normal at this stage. Once she has learned to behave without
distractions, it is time to raise the bar and introduce them. However, the
trick is to do it under controlled circumstances. If you can't anticipate the
distraction and focus her before it already has her attention, you can't easily
work with it.

What has worked today - I am sorry to say - is when a distracting
situation is approaching or is just starting to be upon us, I say sit,
give her the hand signal and if she does not respond, I enforce it by
pushing her hind end down.

I probably wouldn't have recommended it, but I tell my students "if it works,
don't fix it." It may be what your dog needs to make her aware that the world
didn't just collapse into The Other Dog - daddy is still there, and he still
has something to say. :}

Also I find that sometimes (started happenning in the last few weeks)
even in the most non distracting scenerio, I'll ask for a 'down' for
example and do the hand signal and she'll just look at my hand. I've
always tried to not have the treat in the hand since she learnt down
(I lured her at first when she was little to teach it). All of a
sudden she seems to have a "what's in it for me?" attitude :-). I am
very confident that she knows what I am asking for. Is this my pup
having a regression in training or is she being stubborn.

Welcome to Adolescence! :}

Your dog has started to enter the stage of dogdom characterized by
Jeckyll/Hyde-ism. This is normal, and lasts until maturity. Some days she'll
be fine, others she'll act like she was never trained. This is when she may
start to do things she never did before, like run off. She'll test her limits.
And she also has the added "hinks" of her breed, one being the enhanced fear
period that hits at about 7 months. I'd strongly recommend continuing her
education with a trainer who is experienced with GSDs.

Is there
anything I can do other than physically putting her into the down - I
don't want to start luring her with a treat again or she will always
wait to see it :-)

You need to be firm, calm, and patient. When you ask for a behavior and she
blows you off, put a leash on her and hold it so she can't go anywhere. Hold
it loose, but only with a foot or so leeway. Don't repeat the command verbally
more than once, but simply expect it. Wait her out. It may take a while.
Keep your face blank, and don't say anything.

Soon she will get very bored, and realize that her only option is to obey the
command. Break into a smile, praise, reward, and release the leash. Give her
a short play session, then ask for the behavior again. More than likely, she
won't challenge you the second time. :}

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

(Aamer Sachedina) wrote in message news:

Here's what the purely + training trainers whose classes whe have
attended never got across to me - how do I get her attention back with
treats / toys if she won't respond to them.

You just asked the question that's at the heart of all dog training.
The truth is that WHAT you do doesn't matter half as much as HOW you
do it. Most people come to dog training looking for techniques to get
their dog to do one thing or another. But they put their energy into
the technique, rather than the connection with the dog. If we are
asking a dog to focus on us, we need to be equally focused on that
dog. It is both mental and physical work on the part of the human to
capture and maintain the attention of an untrained dog. I'm often
winded after moving an anxious or excited dog to settle him/her and
the concentration it takes can be intense.

The difference between a good handler and just another pet owner is
the ability to make and maintain that connection with the animal, not
the techniques they use. A good handler is quiet in mind and body,
centered and conscious of their center of gravity, and in constant
communication with the dog (the "mental leash"). The dog meets that
focus more than half way and if either party becomes distracted, it
takes effort to re-establish the connection. This is the hardest
thing for a new dog owner to understand, and the majority of owners
never get it. They can go to all the classes they want, try every
technique in the world and read every book. Without fully investing
themselves when working with their dog, the results will be
half-baked, at best. Treats are great tools for training, but have
nothing to do with establishing a connection between you and the dog.
In fact they detract from that work.

That was the long answer :-) The short answer is: if you want more of
your dog's attention, give more of your attention to the dog.

Lynn K.

I've been following a regime of purely positive reinforcement with my
German bred GSD pup Meika. She is 5.5 months old now - very
confident, smart puppy.

There is no such thing as purely positive training. Everyone needs consequences
in life. Try to observe your dog and listen to your dog more than to other
people.

Treats are great tools for training, but have
nothing to do with establishing a connection between you and the dog.
In fact they detract from that work.


Detract? If used properly, how so?

At any rate, ITA with you that it's not all about the food, it's about the
connection as well.
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

There is no such thing as purely positive training.

This is very true That is why I call the method I use Positive
Reinforcement BASED. You can teach a dog many things using PR, but there has
to be the other four quadrants used as well (NR, PP, NP).

Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

The food
has the dog's attention. He does what you ask because he wants the food.

You should use food as a reward after the initial behavior is taught, not a
lure

He still distracts at
noises and he still loses interest quickly but he's learned that verbal
praise is good w/o needing a treat to follow up or a lure to get him to work
with me.

Treats should be rewards, not lures or follow ups. I want my dog motivated,
and for my dogs, food is more rewarding than praise. I do vary the reward
though, once they've learned the behavior I vary the reward schedule; sometimes
its praise, sometimes a tennis ball, sometimes a treat, or even just jumping
around and playing for a sec. Just using praise my dogs wouldn't be quite so
eager to work. It would be like me getting a pat on the back every week at
paycheck time at work Sure its' nice and all, but hey, give me a raise
every now and again and I'm more eager to work!




Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

(DogStar716) wrote in message ...
Treats are great tools for training, but have
nothing to do with establishing a connection between you and the dog.
In fact they detract from that work.


Detract? If used properly, how so?

The OP asked how to get the dog's attention back, with treats, when
the dog was distracted. We can all agreed that that is
counterproductive, as Tara described very well.

Lynn K.