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When is euth. warranted?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 3rd 04, 03:27 AM
Lynn K.
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Default When is euth. warranted?

Reading the Teena thread made me wonder what circumstances would those
people who criticized Kate (Charlie & Michael) deem appropriate for
euthanizing a dog. Everyone who has ever had to make that decision
and everyone who works with animals has thought long and hard about it
and come to personal decisions about when it is best or necessary.
Charlie & Michael, have you thought it through and do you know when
you would be comfortable with making the decision to euthanize? Is it
only for untreatable physical suffering, or does mental suffering of
the animal also enter into your equation? What about quality of life
or the safety of others?

Lynn K.
  #2  
Old February 3rd 04, 11:38 AM
Charlie Wilkes
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Default

On 2 Feb 2004 18:27:51 -0800, (Lynn K.) wrote:

Reading the Teena thread made me wonder what circumstances would those
people who criticized Kate (Charlie & Michael) deem appropriate for
euthanizing a dog. Everyone who has ever had to make that decision
and everyone who works with animals has thought long and hard about it
and come to personal decisions about when it is best or necessary.
Charlie & Michael, have you thought it through and do you know when
you would be comfortable with making the decision to euthanize? Is it
only for untreatable physical suffering, or does mental suffering of
the animal also enter into your equation? What about quality of life
or the safety of others?

I have killed animals before. I had a semi-feral cat who showed up
starving with a massive abscess and most of her jaw eroded from the
infection, and I put down a bowl of milk and shot her in the head
while she was sipping it. I tried to rescue a gull once, and when I
found out its wing was severed and beyond repair, I wrung its neck.

As I mentioned, I also know people who have euthenized their pets
mainly for convenience, and it would never occur to me to pass
judgement on them, although it's not how I personally operate.

I don't object to euthenasia, and I don't think I'm the right person
to define when it is/isn't appropriate.

The point I have attempted to make in the Teena thread(s) is that THE
DOG WAS MISHANDLED.

Maybe Teena was such a temperamentally unsound creature that she would
have been impossible to keep around even with proper handling. BUT,
she didn't get proper handling, so it's unknown.

When dogs growl or snap, confrontation of any kind makes the problem
worse, not better. This is not merely my personal opinion, but a
conclusion reached by numerous experts.

So, my purpose is to encourage people in this group to fundamentally
re-think how they handle their dogs, especially when the dogs are
behaving aggressively. Laying down the law, in the supposed manner of
the Alpha Wolf in a wolf-pack, ain't the answer. If people can begin
to understand that, perhaps a future sadness of this kind will thereby
be avoided.

Thank you for inviting me to share my opinions.

Charlie
  #3  
Old February 3rd 04, 11:38 AM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2 Feb 2004 18:27:51 -0800, (Lynn K.) wrote:

Reading the Teena thread made me wonder what circumstances would those
people who criticized Kate (Charlie & Michael) deem appropriate for
euthanizing a dog. Everyone who has ever had to make that decision
and everyone who works with animals has thought long and hard about it
and come to personal decisions about when it is best or necessary.
Charlie & Michael, have you thought it through and do you know when
you would be comfortable with making the decision to euthanize? Is it
only for untreatable physical suffering, or does mental suffering of
the animal also enter into your equation? What about quality of life
or the safety of others?

I have killed animals before. I had a semi-feral cat who showed up
starving with a massive abscess and most of her jaw eroded from the
infection, and I put down a bowl of milk and shot her in the head
while she was sipping it. I tried to rescue a gull once, and when I
found out its wing was severed and beyond repair, I wrung its neck.

As I mentioned, I also know people who have euthenized their pets
mainly for convenience, and it would never occur to me to pass
judgement on them, although it's not how I personally operate.

I don't object to euthenasia, and I don't think I'm the right person
to define when it is/isn't appropriate.

The point I have attempted to make in the Teena thread(s) is that THE
DOG WAS MISHANDLED.

Maybe Teena was such a temperamentally unsound creature that she would
have been impossible to keep around even with proper handling. BUT,
she didn't get proper handling, so it's unknown.

When dogs growl or snap, confrontation of any kind makes the problem
worse, not better. This is not merely my personal opinion, but a
conclusion reached by numerous experts.

So, my purpose is to encourage people in this group to fundamentally
re-think how they handle their dogs, especially when the dogs are
behaving aggressively. Laying down the law, in the supposed manner of
the Alpha Wolf in a wolf-pack, ain't the answer. If people can begin
to understand that, perhaps a future sadness of this kind will thereby
be avoided.

Thank you for inviting me to share my opinions.

Charlie
  #4  
Old February 3rd 04, 11:38 AM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2 Feb 2004 18:27:51 -0800, (Lynn K.) wrote:

Reading the Teena thread made me wonder what circumstances would those
people who criticized Kate (Charlie & Michael) deem appropriate for
euthanizing a dog. Everyone who has ever had to make that decision
and everyone who works with animals has thought long and hard about it
and come to personal decisions about when it is best or necessary.
Charlie & Michael, have you thought it through and do you know when
you would be comfortable with making the decision to euthanize? Is it
only for untreatable physical suffering, or does mental suffering of
the animal also enter into your equation? What about quality of life
or the safety of others?

I have killed animals before. I had a semi-feral cat who showed up
starving with a massive abscess and most of her jaw eroded from the
infection, and I put down a bowl of milk and shot her in the head
while she was sipping it. I tried to rescue a gull once, and when I
found out its wing was severed and beyond repair, I wrung its neck.

As I mentioned, I also know people who have euthenized their pets
mainly for convenience, and it would never occur to me to pass
judgement on them, although it's not how I personally operate.

I don't object to euthenasia, and I don't think I'm the right person
to define when it is/isn't appropriate.

The point I have attempted to make in the Teena thread(s) is that THE
DOG WAS MISHANDLED.

Maybe Teena was such a temperamentally unsound creature that she would
have been impossible to keep around even with proper handling. BUT,
she didn't get proper handling, so it's unknown.

When dogs growl or snap, confrontation of any kind makes the problem
worse, not better. This is not merely my personal opinion, but a
conclusion reached by numerous experts.

So, my purpose is to encourage people in this group to fundamentally
re-think how they handle their dogs, especially when the dogs are
behaving aggressively. Laying down the law, in the supposed manner of
the Alpha Wolf in a wolf-pack, ain't the answer. If people can begin
to understand that, perhaps a future sadness of this kind will thereby
be avoided.

Thank you for inviting me to share my opinions.

Charlie
  #5  
Old February 3rd 04, 11:38 AM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2 Feb 2004 18:27:51 -0800, (Lynn K.) wrote:

Reading the Teena thread made me wonder what circumstances would those
people who criticized Kate (Charlie & Michael) deem appropriate for
euthanizing a dog. Everyone who has ever had to make that decision
and everyone who works with animals has thought long and hard about it
and come to personal decisions about when it is best or necessary.
Charlie & Michael, have you thought it through and do you know when
you would be comfortable with making the decision to euthanize? Is it
only for untreatable physical suffering, or does mental suffering of
the animal also enter into your equation? What about quality of life
or the safety of others?

I have killed animals before. I had a semi-feral cat who showed up
starving with a massive abscess and most of her jaw eroded from the
infection, and I put down a bowl of milk and shot her in the head
while she was sipping it. I tried to rescue a gull once, and when I
found out its wing was severed and beyond repair, I wrung its neck.

As I mentioned, I also know people who have euthenized their pets
mainly for convenience, and it would never occur to me to pass
judgement on them, although it's not how I personally operate.

I don't object to euthenasia, and I don't think I'm the right person
to define when it is/isn't appropriate.

The point I have attempted to make in the Teena thread(s) is that THE
DOG WAS MISHANDLED.

Maybe Teena was such a temperamentally unsound creature that she would
have been impossible to keep around even with proper handling. BUT,
she didn't get proper handling, so it's unknown.

When dogs growl or snap, confrontation of any kind makes the problem
worse, not better. This is not merely my personal opinion, but a
conclusion reached by numerous experts.

So, my purpose is to encourage people in this group to fundamentally
re-think how they handle their dogs, especially when the dogs are
behaving aggressively. Laying down the law, in the supposed manner of
the Alpha Wolf in a wolf-pack, ain't the answer. If people can begin
to understand that, perhaps a future sadness of this kind will thereby
be avoided.

Thank you for inviting me to share my opinions.

Charlie
  #6  
Old February 3rd 04, 04:32 PM
KWBrown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

diddy wrote in
:

Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i
always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I
never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply
a genetic malfunction.

Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for
comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden
idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work
here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified.


ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a
consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of
epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression.

Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare,
and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control
aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes
later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what
happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from
the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous."

Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo
and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in
the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer
Rage."

I think we're looking at two issues he

1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog
down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes
a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically
ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by
the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that
there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out
of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of
our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and
moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these
documented incidents.

2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery
votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that
this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of
experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked
at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made
remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and
training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress
we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so
heartbreaking.

Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is,
in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a
shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big
deal.

In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and
the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression,
and am comfortable with my decision, however sad.

Kate

  #7  
Old February 3rd 04, 04:32 PM
KWBrown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

diddy wrote in
:

Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i
always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I
never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply
a genetic malfunction.

Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for
comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden
idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work
here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified.


ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a
consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of
epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression.

Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare,
and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control
aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes
later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what
happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from
the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous."

Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo
and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in
the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer
Rage."

I think we're looking at two issues he

1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog
down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes
a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically
ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by
the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that
there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out
of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of
our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and
moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these
documented incidents.

2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery
votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that
this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of
experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked
at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made
remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and
training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress
we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so
heartbreaking.

Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is,
in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a
shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big
deal.

In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and
the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression,
and am comfortable with my decision, however sad.

Kate

  #8  
Old February 3rd 04, 04:32 PM
KWBrown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

diddy wrote in
:

Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i
always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I
never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply
a genetic malfunction.

Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for
comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden
idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work
here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified.


ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a
consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of
epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression.

Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare,
and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control
aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes
later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what
happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from
the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous."

Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo
and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in
the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer
Rage."

I think we're looking at two issues he

1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog
down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes
a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically
ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by
the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that
there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out
of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of
our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and
moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these
documented incidents.

2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery
votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that
this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of
experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked
at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made
remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and
training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress
we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so
heartbreaking.

Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is,
in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a
shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big
deal.

In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and
the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression,
and am comfortable with my decision, however sad.

Kate

  #9  
Old February 3rd 04, 04:32 PM
KWBrown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

diddy wrote in
:

Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i
always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I
never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply
a genetic malfunction.

Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for
comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden
idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work
here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified.


ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a
consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of
epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression.

Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare,
and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control
aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes
later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what
happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from
the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous."

Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo
and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in
the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer
Rage."

I think we're looking at two issues he

1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog
down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes
a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically
ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by
the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that
there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out
of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of
our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and
moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these
documented incidents.

2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery
votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that
this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of
experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked
at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made
remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and
training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress
we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so
heartbreaking.

Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is,
in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a
shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big
deal.

In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and
the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression,
and am comfortable with my decision, however sad.

Kate

  #10  
Old February 3rd 04, 04:46 PM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy
wrote:

Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i always
had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I never felt
it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply a genetic
malfunction.

Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for comment.
But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden idiopathic
aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work here. IF SRS was
the case, I feel euth was justified.


Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not
have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate
responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming
it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And
then she continued grooming it.

That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's
impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It
makes the problem worse.

Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people
(many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that
they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they
want. And it always makes things worse!

If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids
repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate
and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in
that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring
them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy
it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief
of toys.

Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding
is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out
vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by
one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with
feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put
the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by
growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want.
And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do!

As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an
inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have
had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible
chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled.

hCharlie
 




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