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When is euth. warranted?
Reading the Teena thread made me wonder what circumstances would those
people who criticized Kate (Charlie & Michael) deem appropriate for euthanizing a dog. Everyone who has ever had to make that decision and everyone who works with animals has thought long and hard about it and come to personal decisions about when it is best or necessary. Charlie & Michael, have you thought it through and do you know when you would be comfortable with making the decision to euthanize? Is it only for untreatable physical suffering, or does mental suffering of the animal also enter into your equation? What about quality of life or the safety of others? Lynn K. |
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diddy wrote in
: Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply a genetic malfunction. Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified. ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression. Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare, and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous." Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer Rage." I think we're looking at two issues he 1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these documented incidents. 2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so heartbreaking. Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is, in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big deal. In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression, and am comfortable with my decision, however sad. Kate |
#7
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diddy wrote in
: Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply a genetic malfunction. Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified. ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression. Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare, and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous." Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer Rage." I think we're looking at two issues he 1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these documented incidents. 2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so heartbreaking. Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is, in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big deal. In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression, and am comfortable with my decision, however sad. Kate |
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diddy wrote in
: Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply a genetic malfunction. Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified. ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression. Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare, and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous." Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer Rage." I think we're looking at two issues he 1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these documented incidents. 2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so heartbreaking. Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is, in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big deal. In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression, and am comfortable with my decision, however sad. Kate |
#9
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diddy wrote in
: Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply a genetic malfunction. Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified. ESS are susceptible to unexplained aggression, but there is not a consensus on why or how it happens. Some people suspect a kind of epiliptic seizure, some think it's out of control dominance aggression. Some in the breed are careful to distinguish "rage," which is very rare, and seems to involve the dog flipping into totally-out-of-control aggression and then not seeming to remember anything a few minutes later, from other aggressive behaviour. I don't think this is what happened to Teena - I think she was a dog with a hinky personality from the start who was sliding downhill from "manageable," to "dangerous." Teena's breeder has clearly seen this kind of behavioural slide befo and we may be able to say more fairly that there are unstable dogs in the breed (Teena being one) than to blame it all on dramatic "Springer Rage." I think we're looking at two issues he 1) The question asked by the OP: When is it warranted to put a dog down? Here, Michael claims "never," and Charlie accepts that sometimes a dog has to be euthanized, although he's mostly considering physically ill animals. My choice in this behaviour-related episode was driven by the fact that this dog was becoming more and more unreliable and that there were children whose faces are at the level of her teeth in and out of my home. I would not accept this animal as a trustworthy member of our househould any more and, furthermore, would not accept the legal and moral liability if she *ever* bit *anyone* *anytime* after these documented incidents. 2) How did the dog become dangerously aggressive? The Peanut Gallery votes for handler incompetence, which is their prerogative, given that this is a dog they've never seen, in the hands of someone with years of experience with multiple dogs, none of whom have ever so much as looked at me crosswise. Teena came to me in pretty bad shape and made remarkable improvement over several years of intensive work and training, most of which involved lots and lots of cookies. The progress we made together is why this terrible slide downhill was so heartbreaking. Of course, anyone who believes that routinely grooming a coated dog is, in and of itself, an act of incompetent handling, needs some time in a shelter cleaning up a dog whose owner didn't think mats were such a big deal. In the end, I have the work of two vets, a behaviourist, a trainer, and the dog's own breeder supporting the diagnosis of escalating aggression, and am comfortable with my decision, however sad. Kate |
#10
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On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 07:02:53 -0600, diddy
wrote: Aren't English Springer Spaniel's subject to sudden rage syndrome? i always had a sneaking suspiscion that this was the case with Teena. I never felt it was mismanagement, mishandling, or anything else. Simply a genetic malfunction. Since I could not diagnose the dog from afar, there was no use for comment. But considering the breed (big tipoff here) and the sudden idiopathic aggression, I would suspect strongly that SRS was at work here. IF SRS was the case, I feel euth was justified. Perhaps. I can't say. I'm sorry for Kate's loss, and I would not have stepped into this thread, except I read a post about how Kate responded when the dog first growled at her, while she was grooming it. She glared at it and said, "Don't you ever do that again!" And then she continued grooming it. That is mishandling, plain and simple. It validates the dog's impression that it has been threatened and needs to take a stand. It makes the problem worse. Same thing when a dog growls if you take away its toy. Some people (many people) set the situation up repeatedly to "teach" the dog that they are the master and have the "right" to take the toy anytime they want. And it always makes things worse! If, on the other hand, the handler defers, backs off, and avoids repeating the trigger situation, the behavior will often de-escalate and become less frequent/severe. This is why experts advise owners in that situation to put all toys out of the dog's reach, and only bring them out for structured play. That is how you teach the dog whose toy it really is -- by becoming the source of toys rather than the thief of toys. Another related problem is that of the dog who growls when its feeding is disturbed. The right answer (assuming the dog is not flat-out vicious) is to sit by the empty bowl and drop kibbles into it one by one or a few at a time, so the dog comes to associate the hand with feeding instead of competition for the food. DO NOT repeatedly put the dog in a situation where it is encouraged to defend its food by growling, just to show that you can take the food away if you want. And that's what some of these "alpha" trainers do! As for Teena, I am aware that spontaneous aggression can be an inherited trait. My aunt has a poodle like that, and Teena may have had this condition as well. But, she didn't get the best possible chance at life, because she was in fact mishandled. hCharlie |
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