A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog behavior
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

dominance struggles



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 3rd 04, 07:47 PM
culprit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default dominance struggles

yeah, i knew it was bound to happen...

Manu and Lola are both 18 months old this week. and life has been getting a
bit more interesting around the house. when Manu first came to live with
us, Lola submitted to his bullying and life was pretty good. he ate first,
went outside first, left his crate first, and got the first hello pets in
the morning. he watched her food bowl diligently, and as soon as she was
done, he licked it clean. he stole her toys, and she let him, most of the
time. their play was rough and tumble, but not scary. and once in a while,
he'd mount her, and she'd just stand there, as though she didn't notice.

things have recently changed. we're still treating Manu as though he's in
charge, but Lola as stopped acting like she agrees with us. it started
innocently enough, he'd get excited at something outside and go to mount
Lola, and she just sat down. didn't look at him, didn't snap, just sat. so
obviously, he couldn't do much of anything. then she started getting
possessive over toys. and not just toys she had in her mouth, any toy he
looked at. she started snapping at him if he glanced at her wrong. just
now, Manu was laying on the choice spot in front of the fire. normally Lola
would lay behind him, but she just sat on his head, so she could be closer
to the fire. this is new behavior, and it's worrying me.

yesterday, we were playing with a soccer ball in the yard. i'd kick the
ball, both dogs would run for it, and they'd nose it around between them
until i kicked it again. sounds simple enough, right? apparently Manu
looked at the ball inapropriately, because Lola just freaked out. they've
made scary noises and showed teeth before, but no one got hurt. this was
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight,
and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and
tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws
(upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind
of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put
them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though
nothing had happened.
but something had. Lola has a puncture completely through her ear, and
several scratches on her mouth. Manu has scratches around his mouth, and
the webbing between his toes is cut and keeps bleeding all over my floor.
and i have a nice C shaped bruise, about the size of a pit bull's dental
imprint on my arm. and it's swollen to about half again it's size.

*sigh*

what used to be little "i'm in charge" signals have recently escalated to
the dogs not being allowed to play together without two adults to supervise
them.

i know that having two dogs of this breed can be difficult, so i don't need
any "i told you so's" there. i know that having two adolescent dogs can be
a challenge, regardless of breed. and i know that Lola is obviously not
happy with being the bottom dog here.

the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu as top dog,
because he's always been the one that showed the signs, while Lola passively
sat there. if it's going to change, do i need to change my behavior? or do
i just "let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other?
recently, i've been keeping a close eye on them, and if a toy becomes a
point of contention, i put it away. if they start getting snappy or
growling, i give them the "easy" command and they go to their separate
corners. am i managing this right? is there something i'm missing that
could make this easier? it will get better when they decide who's in
charge, right?

any good books that go into this?


-kelly


  #2  
Old March 3rd 04, 08:30 PM
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight,
and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and
tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws
(upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind
of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put
them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though
nothing had happened.


Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to
offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that
challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these
dogs have been living together for a long time.

Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second
fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where
he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't
back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get
seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to
be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards
snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior.

Good luck,
Suja

  #3  
Old March 3rd 04, 08:30 PM
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight,
and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and
tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws
(upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind
of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put
them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though
nothing had happened.


Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to
offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that
challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these
dogs have been living together for a long time.

Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second
fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where
he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't
back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get
seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to
be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards
snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior.

Good luck,
Suja

  #4  
Old March 3rd 04, 08:30 PM
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight,
and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and
tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws
(upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind
of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put
them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though
nothing had happened.


Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to
offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that
challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these
dogs have been living together for a long time.

Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second
fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where
he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't
back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get
seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to
be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards
snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior.

Good luck,
Suja

  #5  
Old March 3rd 04, 08:30 PM
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight,
and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and
tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws
(upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind
of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put
them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though
nothing had happened.


Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to
offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that
challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these
dogs have been living together for a long time.

Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second
fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where
he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't
back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get
seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to
be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards
snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior.

Good luck,
Suja

  #6  
Old March 3rd 04, 09:20 PM
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu
as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed
the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going
to change, do i need to change my behavior?


In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in
charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already
been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your
behaviour.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to
my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi-
dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky
gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually
precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much
more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog
is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most
of the time.

When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to
influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit
bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth.

or do i just
"let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other?


Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out".

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #7  
Old March 3rd 04, 09:20 PM
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu
as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed
the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going
to change, do i need to change my behavior?


In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in
charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already
been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your
behaviour.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to
my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi-
dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky
gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually
precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much
more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog
is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most
of the time.

When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to
influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit
bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth.

or do i just
"let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other?


Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out".

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #8  
Old March 3rd 04, 09:20 PM
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu
as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed
the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going
to change, do i need to change my behavior?


In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in
charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already
been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your
behaviour.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to
my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi-
dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky
gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually
precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much
more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog
is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most
of the time.

When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to
influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit
bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth.

or do i just
"let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other?


Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out".

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #9  
Old March 3rd 04, 09:20 PM
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu
as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed
the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going
to change, do i need to change my behavior?


In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in
charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already
been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your
behaviour.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to
my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi-
dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky
gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually
precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much
more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog
is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most
of the time.

When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to
influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit
bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth.

or do i just
"let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other?


Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out".

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #10  
Old March 3rd 04, 09:51 PM
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Rocky wrote:
Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to
my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi-
dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky
gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually
precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much
more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog
is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most
of the time.


I've got Siberians and they're very social dogs, not just
with humans but also with each other. They've made a very
structured little society for themselves within my home, but
I've found that stuff like what you describe tends to boil
down to prerogative. It's not that Emmett expects to go
first, but rather that when he wants to go first he expects
the other dogs to defer to him. I've also found the
situation is very fluid, so that sometimes he'll choose to
defer to one of the other dogs (even Saber and Duncan)
rather than make a fuss over something. And, of course, he
wasn't always top dog - there was a transition period that
involved some, uh, negotiation. The only time I've worried
about that kind of thing was when I was trying to teach
Saber not to fight, and I started treating him like Bottom
Dog because I noticed that if he started thinking he was
coming up in the world he'd start challenging the other
dogs.

The problems here mostly haven't been about hierarchy. When
Saber first arrived he'd never been around other dogs and he
was terrified (he's only got about 25% vision, which didn't
help). He started getting into fights and then he started
getting into lots of fights, and it took about a year to
fix. If I'd known how long it would take I would have taken
him to a behaviorist. What did the trick was zero tolerance
for rude gestures from anybody, everybody involved in a
fight was punished (not just the initiator), and teaching
Saber to defer to the other dogs. However, while there were
some puncture wounds and a little bit of bloodshed, there
was never a fight so serious that anybody had to go to the
vet. It was a bad situation but it wasn't dire (although I
believe that it would have become so if allowed to
continue). It's been over two years since there's been a
fight and Saber's become a happy, functioning member of
doggy society. But again, *very* different breed.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

The Congressional Budget Office projects that Bush's new tax and
spending plan will produce a $2.75 trillion budget deficit in 10 years
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Humping and Pawing and dominance? FurPaw Dog behavior 44 December 20th 03 03:40 PM
Humping and Pawing and dominance? FurPaw Dog behavior 0 December 17th 03 11:39 PM
Humping and Pawing and dominance? FurPaw Dog behavior 0 December 17th 03 11:39 PM
Humping and Pawing and dominance? FurPaw Dog behavior 0 December 17th 03 11:39 PM
Mixed Breeds Trait Dominance Jeff Dog breeds 10 August 17th 03 05:11 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unauthorized Upgrade)
Copyright ©2004-2024 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.