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#1
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dominance struggles
yeah, i knew it was bound to happen...
Manu and Lola are both 18 months old this week. and life has been getting a bit more interesting around the house. when Manu first came to live with us, Lola submitted to his bullying and life was pretty good. he ate first, went outside first, left his crate first, and got the first hello pets in the morning. he watched her food bowl diligently, and as soon as she was done, he licked it clean. he stole her toys, and she let him, most of the time. their play was rough and tumble, but not scary. and once in a while, he'd mount her, and she'd just stand there, as though she didn't notice. things have recently changed. we're still treating Manu as though he's in charge, but Lola as stopped acting like she agrees with us. it started innocently enough, he'd get excited at something outside and go to mount Lola, and she just sat down. didn't look at him, didn't snap, just sat. so obviously, he couldn't do much of anything. then she started getting possessive over toys. and not just toys she had in her mouth, any toy he looked at. she started snapping at him if he glanced at her wrong. just now, Manu was laying on the choice spot in front of the fire. normally Lola would lay behind him, but she just sat on his head, so she could be closer to the fire. this is new behavior, and it's worrying me. yesterday, we were playing with a soccer ball in the yard. i'd kick the ball, both dogs would run for it, and they'd nose it around between them until i kicked it again. sounds simple enough, right? apparently Manu looked at the ball inapropriately, because Lola just freaked out. they've made scary noises and showed teeth before, but no one got hurt. this was not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight, and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws (upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though nothing had happened. but something had. Lola has a puncture completely through her ear, and several scratches on her mouth. Manu has scratches around his mouth, and the webbing between his toes is cut and keeps bleeding all over my floor. and i have a nice C shaped bruise, about the size of a pit bull's dental imprint on my arm. and it's swollen to about half again it's size. *sigh* what used to be little "i'm in charge" signals have recently escalated to the dogs not being allowed to play together without two adults to supervise them. i know that having two dogs of this breed can be difficult, so i don't need any "i told you so's" there. i know that having two adolescent dogs can be a challenge, regardless of breed. and i know that Lola is obviously not happy with being the bottom dog here. the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going to change, do i need to change my behavior? or do i just "let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other? recently, i've been keeping a close eye on them, and if a toy becomes a point of contention, i put it away. if they start getting snappy or growling, i give them the "easy" command and they go to their separate corners. am i managing this right? is there something i'm missing that could make this easier? it will get better when they decide who's in charge, right? any good books that go into this? -kelly |
#2
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culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight, and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws (upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though nothing had happened. Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these dogs have been living together for a long time. Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior. Good luck, Suja |
#3
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culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight, and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws (upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though nothing had happened. Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these dogs have been living together for a long time. Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior. Good luck, Suja |
#4
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culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight, and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws (upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though nothing had happened. Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these dogs have been living together for a long time. Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior. Good luck, Suja |
#5
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culprit wrote:
not like anything i've see either one of them do. they got into a fight, and i was alone out there with them. i picked up Lola by the chest, and tried to pull her off, but that didn't work. so i grabbed Manu's jaws (upper in one hand and lower in the other) and opened his mouth, then i kind of inserted myself between them and pushed Lola away with my body. i put them both in a down stay, and they just lay there, panting, as though nothing had happened. Wow, sounds awfully familiar. I'm afraid I have nothing useful to offer, since my response to something similar was to return the dog that challenged Khan, and your situation is a little different since these dogs have been living together for a long time. Having a dominant dog, I know that he won't be happy playing second fiddle to any other dog. It has never actually gotten to a point where he had to fight for his position, but I am fairly certain that he won't back down, and either he or the other dog would probably have to get seriously hurt for a dog fight to end. I guess your best option is to be diligent about management and to have a zero tolerance policy towards snarking/guarding/passive aggressive behavior. Good luck, Suja |
#6
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culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going to change, do i need to change my behavior? In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your behaviour. Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi- dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most of the time. When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth. or do i just "let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other? Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out". -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. |
#7
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culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going to change, do i need to change my behavior? In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your behaviour. Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi- dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most of the time. When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth. or do i just "let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other? Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out". -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. |
#8
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culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going to change, do i need to change my behavior? In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your behaviour. Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi- dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most of the time. When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth. or do i just "let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other? Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out". -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. |
#9
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culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
the question is, what can i do? i've always supported Manu as top dog, because he's always been the one that showed the signs, while Lola passively sat there. if it's going to change, do i need to change my behavior? In my limited experience, it'd more common for Lola to be in charge. If this is what's happening -- and since you've already been treating Manu preferentially -- yes, you should modify your behaviour. Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi- dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most of the time. When I had a subtly dominant female, I had even less reason to influence my dogs' hierarchy. I know next to nothing about pit bulls, however, so take this for what it's worth. or do i just "let them work it out" and hope they don't kill each other? Nope, though that depends on what you mean by "work it out". -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. |
#10
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In article ,
Rocky wrote: Personally, I've never been a big fan of tieing my behaviour to my dogs' hierarchy; I don't think that it's required in a multi- dog household. I give Friday his treats first because Rocky gobbles his - they finish at the same time. Rocky usually precedes Friday out of the door because Rocky drinks so much more water and needs to pee more. In the long term, neither dog is treated preferentially, though Rocky is the dominant dog most of the time. I've got Siberians and they're very social dogs, not just with humans but also with each other. They've made a very structured little society for themselves within my home, but I've found that stuff like what you describe tends to boil down to prerogative. It's not that Emmett expects to go first, but rather that when he wants to go first he expects the other dogs to defer to him. I've also found the situation is very fluid, so that sometimes he'll choose to defer to one of the other dogs (even Saber and Duncan) rather than make a fuss over something. And, of course, he wasn't always top dog - there was a transition period that involved some, uh, negotiation. The only time I've worried about that kind of thing was when I was trying to teach Saber not to fight, and I started treating him like Bottom Dog because I noticed that if he started thinking he was coming up in the world he'd start challenging the other dogs. The problems here mostly haven't been about hierarchy. When Saber first arrived he'd never been around other dogs and he was terrified (he's only got about 25% vision, which didn't help). He started getting into fights and then he started getting into lots of fights, and it took about a year to fix. If I'd known how long it would take I would have taken him to a behaviorist. What did the trick was zero tolerance for rude gestures from anybody, everybody involved in a fight was punished (not just the initiator), and teaching Saber to defer to the other dogs. However, while there were some puncture wounds and a little bit of bloodshed, there was never a fight so serious that anybody had to go to the vet. It was a bad situation but it wasn't dire (although I believe that it would have become so if allowed to continue). It's been over two years since there's been a fight and Saber's become a happy, functioning member of doggy society. But again, *very* different breed. -- Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - The Congressional Budget Office projects that Bush's new tax and spending plan will produce a $2.75 trillion budget deficit in 10 years |
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