If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Anti-social behavior
Here's a tale for you. I have two dogs I adopted from a rescue agency -
Keena and Stefi. Both are females who were both about 4-5 years old when I met them. Keena is never a problem. I took her to dog training classes and applied the same techniques to Stefi when I got her. Stefi is about 45 pounds and when you look closely at her ears you'll see lots of scar tissue from old dog fights. After I adopted her, I found out about her past. She had been kept in a kennel at a no-kill animal shelter for almost two years because she was "too aggressive". No one would adopt her. Today, a lot of people who know her laugh because she is so ridiculously affectionate with strangers (including kids). However other dogs are another story. In my town there are a lot of leash free dog parks and my dogs love to visit. We go almost everyday. I've been working hard trying to better socialize Stefi and we've made lots of progress. I've noticed that when Stefi finds herself in a crowd of people and dogs all bunched together she gets very nervous. Her smiling face will suddenly disappear, her eyes turn coal black, she snarls and the aggressively lashes out at a nearby dog (especially smaller ones). If I see it, I intercept and stop it by shouting "be nice" to her. It seems to work. But I can't take my eye off of her for even a second. I've also noticed after she lashes out at a dog, she never does it again to that dog. Today, after a year and a half of trying to socialize her, she bit another dog in the face so badly, the owner had to take his dog to an emergency vet clinic. It was a bloody mess. Fortunately, the dog wasn't seriously injured but I got to pay a $60 vet bill for the owner. The victim dog was a small breed (Italian greyhound?) Stefi has previously caught and killed a rat and baby opossum in my backyard and some small breeds are not much larger. I'm now very hesitant about taking her back to the park. And what about my other dog who was not involved. Do I leave Stefi at home and take Keena? Any ideas for training regimens? Remember this is a leash free area that's quite large. Any help with my problem is greatly appreciated. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
I can understand & empathize with your problem. Having said that though, I
think taking this dog, who you know to have anxiety issues with other dogs, to an off-leash dog park is extremely irresponsible. I know you're not looking for a slap on the hand, and I'm honestly not trying to flame you, but what you're doing is dangerous and I hope you'll see that. Its dangerous to all the other dogs who visit there. Its dangerous to Stefi because she could be labeled "dangerous" and ordered put to sleep. Its dangerous to the welfare of dog parks in general because alot of them keep tabs on incidents. Its dangerous to a breed or breeds as a whole if she belongs to one, particularly if she even remotely resembles a big or "mean" breed like the Rottweiler, Pit Bull, Doberman, etc. There are so many ramifications to taking an aggressive dog to a public area and allowing it to be off-leash. I realize she's not always aggressive but she presents that front and will lash out. Not all other dogs will turn a blind eye to that and she'd be the one who instigated it. As for Stefi, you may never be able to socialize her to the extent that she's safe around strange dogs off-leash. There are too many factors at play. Its difficult to overcome fear-based aggression on a large scale but not impossible. You can work with a behaviorist who can try to help you further desensitize her but please be prepared for the likelihood that off-leash dog parks won't be something she'll be able to enjoy again. Maybe you can have someone come to take Stefi for a walk when you take Keena to the dog park. Or take Stefi (if she hasn't been banned) but don't take her off-leash, no matter how calm or happy she acts. I understand your desire to see her have fun and to keep trying to test the waters but you are taking entirely too many risks by doing so. I have a dog who *loves* to play with other dogs but has lousy meeting & social skills. On-leash she's aggressive towards strange dogs, often provoking an aggressive response in return. She doesn't get walked as often as I'd like because there are too many loose dogs in my neighborhood. Most are friendly, come-to-say-hi, types who pose a problem for me and my dog. When she's off-leash, she is very physical upon a meeting. She does a great deal of posturing, growling, sometimes raises her hackles, and just puts on one hell of an aggressive display. She's testing the waters, seeing if the other dog is going to attack her, if so then she's ready. If not then after a few minutes she's ready to play. She was attacked in at least one other home by a dog much larger than her, repeatedly. She has reason to behave the way she does but other people won't care about her past & her reasons when she hurts their pet. Her behavior freaks out other dogs' owners, rightly so, and some don't trust that she's really not wanting to fight (off-leash). So due to her social limitations, she gets very few play dates with friends' dogs, gets walked less than she should, never goes to off-leash areas with strange dogs (because she's provoking), and can't go to public places with other dogs when she's on-leash unless I can be relatively certain we'll have plenty of breathing-room. Its not ideal, I feel sorry for her much of the time, exasperated with her some of the time, but this is just how life has been, and will continue to be, for this particular dog. She gets plenty of love & outdoor time at home, takes many car rides, gets to interact with other people often, she just doesn't get to be around other dogs as much as she'd like. -- Tara |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
I can understand & empathize with your problem. Having said that though, I
think taking this dog, who you know to have anxiety issues with other dogs, to an off-leash dog park is extremely irresponsible. I know you're not looking for a slap on the hand, and I'm honestly not trying to flame you, but what you're doing is dangerous and I hope you'll see that. Its dangerous to all the other dogs who visit there. Its dangerous to Stefi because she could be labeled "dangerous" and ordered put to sleep. Its dangerous to the welfare of dog parks in general because alot of them keep tabs on incidents. Its dangerous to a breed or breeds as a whole if she belongs to one, particularly if she even remotely resembles a big or "mean" breed like the Rottweiler, Pit Bull, Doberman, etc. There are so many ramifications to taking an aggressive dog to a public area and allowing it to be off-leash. I realize she's not always aggressive but she presents that front and will lash out. Not all other dogs will turn a blind eye to that and she'd be the one who instigated it. As for Stefi, you may never be able to socialize her to the extent that she's safe around strange dogs off-leash. There are too many factors at play. Its difficult to overcome fear-based aggression on a large scale but not impossible. You can work with a behaviorist who can try to help you further desensitize her but please be prepared for the likelihood that off-leash dog parks won't be something she'll be able to enjoy again. Maybe you can have someone come to take Stefi for a walk when you take Keena to the dog park. Or take Stefi (if she hasn't been banned) but don't take her off-leash, no matter how calm or happy she acts. I understand your desire to see her have fun and to keep trying to test the waters but you are taking entirely too many risks by doing so. I have a dog who *loves* to play with other dogs but has lousy meeting & social skills. On-leash she's aggressive towards strange dogs, often provoking an aggressive response in return. She doesn't get walked as often as I'd like because there are too many loose dogs in my neighborhood. Most are friendly, come-to-say-hi, types who pose a problem for me and my dog. When she's off-leash, she is very physical upon a meeting. She does a great deal of posturing, growling, sometimes raises her hackles, and just puts on one hell of an aggressive display. She's testing the waters, seeing if the other dog is going to attack her, if so then she's ready. If not then after a few minutes she's ready to play. She was attacked in at least one other home by a dog much larger than her, repeatedly. She has reason to behave the way she does but other people won't care about her past & her reasons when she hurts their pet. Her behavior freaks out other dogs' owners, rightly so, and some don't trust that she's really not wanting to fight (off-leash). So due to her social limitations, she gets very few play dates with friends' dogs, gets walked less than she should, never goes to off-leash areas with strange dogs (because she's provoking), and can't go to public places with other dogs when she's on-leash unless I can be relatively certain we'll have plenty of breathing-room. Its not ideal, I feel sorry for her much of the time, exasperated with her some of the time, but this is just how life has been, and will continue to be, for this particular dog. She gets plenty of love & outdoor time at home, takes many car rides, gets to interact with other people often, she just doesn't get to be around other dogs as much as she'd like. -- Tara |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
I can understand & empathize with your problem. Having said that though, I
think taking this dog, who you know to have anxiety issues with other dogs, to an off-leash dog park is extremely irresponsible. I know you're not looking for a slap on the hand, and I'm honestly not trying to flame you, but what you're doing is dangerous and I hope you'll see that. Its dangerous to all the other dogs who visit there. Its dangerous to Stefi because she could be labeled "dangerous" and ordered put to sleep. Its dangerous to the welfare of dog parks in general because alot of them keep tabs on incidents. Its dangerous to a breed or breeds as a whole if she belongs to one, particularly if she even remotely resembles a big or "mean" breed like the Rottweiler, Pit Bull, Doberman, etc. There are so many ramifications to taking an aggressive dog to a public area and allowing it to be off-leash. I realize she's not always aggressive but she presents that front and will lash out. Not all other dogs will turn a blind eye to that and she'd be the one who instigated it. As for Stefi, you may never be able to socialize her to the extent that she's safe around strange dogs off-leash. There are too many factors at play. Its difficult to overcome fear-based aggression on a large scale but not impossible. You can work with a behaviorist who can try to help you further desensitize her but please be prepared for the likelihood that off-leash dog parks won't be something she'll be able to enjoy again. Maybe you can have someone come to take Stefi for a walk when you take Keena to the dog park. Or take Stefi (if she hasn't been banned) but don't take her off-leash, no matter how calm or happy she acts. I understand your desire to see her have fun and to keep trying to test the waters but you are taking entirely too many risks by doing so. I have a dog who *loves* to play with other dogs but has lousy meeting & social skills. On-leash she's aggressive towards strange dogs, often provoking an aggressive response in return. She doesn't get walked as often as I'd like because there are too many loose dogs in my neighborhood. Most are friendly, come-to-say-hi, types who pose a problem for me and my dog. When she's off-leash, she is very physical upon a meeting. She does a great deal of posturing, growling, sometimes raises her hackles, and just puts on one hell of an aggressive display. She's testing the waters, seeing if the other dog is going to attack her, if so then she's ready. If not then after a few minutes she's ready to play. She was attacked in at least one other home by a dog much larger than her, repeatedly. She has reason to behave the way she does but other people won't care about her past & her reasons when she hurts their pet. Her behavior freaks out other dogs' owners, rightly so, and some don't trust that she's really not wanting to fight (off-leash). So due to her social limitations, she gets very few play dates with friends' dogs, gets walked less than she should, never goes to off-leash areas with strange dogs (because she's provoking), and can't go to public places with other dogs when she's on-leash unless I can be relatively certain we'll have plenty of breathing-room. Its not ideal, I feel sorry for her much of the time, exasperated with her some of the time, but this is just how life has been, and will continue to be, for this particular dog. She gets plenty of love & outdoor time at home, takes many car rides, gets to interact with other people often, she just doesn't get to be around other dogs as much as she'd like. -- Tara |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
I can understand & empathize with your problem. Having said that though, I
think taking this dog, who you know to have anxiety issues with other dogs, to an off-leash dog park is extremely irresponsible. I know you're not looking for a slap on the hand, and I'm honestly not trying to flame you, but what you're doing is dangerous and I hope you'll see that. Its dangerous to all the other dogs who visit there. Its dangerous to Stefi because she could be labeled "dangerous" and ordered put to sleep. Its dangerous to the welfare of dog parks in general because alot of them keep tabs on incidents. Its dangerous to a breed or breeds as a whole if she belongs to one, particularly if she even remotely resembles a big or "mean" breed like the Rottweiler, Pit Bull, Doberman, etc. There are so many ramifications to taking an aggressive dog to a public area and allowing it to be off-leash. I realize she's not always aggressive but she presents that front and will lash out. Not all other dogs will turn a blind eye to that and she'd be the one who instigated it. As for Stefi, you may never be able to socialize her to the extent that she's safe around strange dogs off-leash. There are too many factors at play. Its difficult to overcome fear-based aggression on a large scale but not impossible. You can work with a behaviorist who can try to help you further desensitize her but please be prepared for the likelihood that off-leash dog parks won't be something she'll be able to enjoy again. Maybe you can have someone come to take Stefi for a walk when you take Keena to the dog park. Or take Stefi (if she hasn't been banned) but don't take her off-leash, no matter how calm or happy she acts. I understand your desire to see her have fun and to keep trying to test the waters but you are taking entirely too many risks by doing so. I have a dog who *loves* to play with other dogs but has lousy meeting & social skills. On-leash she's aggressive towards strange dogs, often provoking an aggressive response in return. She doesn't get walked as often as I'd like because there are too many loose dogs in my neighborhood. Most are friendly, come-to-say-hi, types who pose a problem for me and my dog. When she's off-leash, she is very physical upon a meeting. She does a great deal of posturing, growling, sometimes raises her hackles, and just puts on one hell of an aggressive display. She's testing the waters, seeing if the other dog is going to attack her, if so then she's ready. If not then after a few minutes she's ready to play. She was attacked in at least one other home by a dog much larger than her, repeatedly. She has reason to behave the way she does but other people won't care about her past & her reasons when she hurts their pet. Her behavior freaks out other dogs' owners, rightly so, and some don't trust that she's really not wanting to fight (off-leash). So due to her social limitations, she gets very few play dates with friends' dogs, gets walked less than she should, never goes to off-leash areas with strange dogs (because she's provoking), and can't go to public places with other dogs when she's on-leash unless I can be relatively certain we'll have plenty of breathing-room. Its not ideal, I feel sorry for her much of the time, exasperated with her some of the time, but this is just how life has been, and will continue to be, for this particular dog. She gets plenty of love & outdoor time at home, takes many car rides, gets to interact with other people often, she just doesn't get to be around other dogs as much as she'd like. -- Tara |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"CardioActive" wrote in message ink.net... Here's a tale for you. I have two dogs I adopted from a rescue agency - Keena and Stefi. Both are females who were both about 4-5 years old when I met them. Keena is never a problem. I took her to dog training classes and applied the same techniques to Stefi when I got her. Stefi is about 45 pounds and when you look closely at her ears you'll see lots of scar tissue from old dog fights. After I adopted her, I found out about her past. She had been kept in a kennel at a no-kill animal shelter for almost two years because she was "too aggressive". No one would adopt her. Today, a lot of people who know her laugh because she is so ridiculously affectionate with strangers (including kids). However other dogs are another story. In my town there are a lot of leash free dog parks and my dogs love to visit. We go almost everyday. I've been working hard trying to better socialize Stefi and we've made lots of progress. I've noticed that when Stefi finds herself in a crowd of people and dogs all bunched together she gets very nervous. Her smiling face will suddenly disappear, her eyes turn coal black, she snarls and the aggressively lashes out at a nearby dog (especially smaller ones). If I see it, I intercept and stop it by shouting "be nice" to her. It seems to work. But I can't take my eye off of her for even a second. I've also noticed after she lashes out at a dog, she never does it again to that dog. Today, after a year and a half of trying to socialize her, she bit another dog in the face so badly, the owner had to take his dog to an emergency vet clinic. It was a bloody mess. Fortunately, the dog wasn't seriously injured but I got to pay a $60 vet bill for the owner. The victim dog was a small breed (Italian greyhound?) Stefi has previously caught and killed a rat and baby opossum in my backyard and some small breeds are not much larger. I'm now very hesitant about taking her back to the park. And what about my other dog who was not involved. Do I leave Stefi at home and take Keena? Any ideas for training regimens? Remember this is a leash free area that's quite large. Any help with my problem is greatly appreciated. My bitch used to tell young dogs and most males to back off, but as she got older she started doing this more and more fiercly. Then she scratched a dog in the park (fenced in dogpark), the owner didn't notice until she got home. I might never have known if I hadn't seen the scratch a few days later and asked how he got it. After this I avoided taking here to the park if there were any young males there. We then had an accident with a friends puppy - puppy licking her face and she snapping, piece of the tongue had to be removed. Then again in the park she growled at a middleaged bitch who attacked her, so now she only gets to go to the park when I know the dogs that are there, and I know they get along. If a new dog arrives at the park, I ask the owner to wait, I put my old girl on a leash and put her outside the park. This has worked for us, my younger dog gets to play - my older dog sometimes gets to interact with her "old friends" and no one gets hurt. So even if you feel sorry for your dog because you can't let her play - put her on a leash or leave her at home. If she snaps at other dogs it is also a sign that she isn't very happy about the situation. Don't wait for something worse to happen. Rosa |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"CardioActive" wrote in message ink.net... Here's a tale for you. I have two dogs I adopted from a rescue agency - Keena and Stefi. Both are females who were both about 4-5 years old when I met them. Keena is never a problem. I took her to dog training classes and applied the same techniques to Stefi when I got her. Stefi is about 45 pounds and when you look closely at her ears you'll see lots of scar tissue from old dog fights. After I adopted her, I found out about her past. She had been kept in a kennel at a no-kill animal shelter for almost two years because she was "too aggressive". No one would adopt her. Today, a lot of people who know her laugh because she is so ridiculously affectionate with strangers (including kids). However other dogs are another story. In my town there are a lot of leash free dog parks and my dogs love to visit. We go almost everyday. I've been working hard trying to better socialize Stefi and we've made lots of progress. I've noticed that when Stefi finds herself in a crowd of people and dogs all bunched together she gets very nervous. Her smiling face will suddenly disappear, her eyes turn coal black, she snarls and the aggressively lashes out at a nearby dog (especially smaller ones). If I see it, I intercept and stop it by shouting "be nice" to her. It seems to work. But I can't take my eye off of her for even a second. I've also noticed after she lashes out at a dog, she never does it again to that dog. Today, after a year and a half of trying to socialize her, she bit another dog in the face so badly, the owner had to take his dog to an emergency vet clinic. It was a bloody mess. Fortunately, the dog wasn't seriously injured but I got to pay a $60 vet bill for the owner. The victim dog was a small breed (Italian greyhound?) Stefi has previously caught and killed a rat and baby opossum in my backyard and some small breeds are not much larger. I'm now very hesitant about taking her back to the park. And what about my other dog who was not involved. Do I leave Stefi at home and take Keena? Any ideas for training regimens? Remember this is a leash free area that's quite large. Any help with my problem is greatly appreciated. My bitch used to tell young dogs and most males to back off, but as she got older she started doing this more and more fiercly. Then she scratched a dog in the park (fenced in dogpark), the owner didn't notice until she got home. I might never have known if I hadn't seen the scratch a few days later and asked how he got it. After this I avoided taking here to the park if there were any young males there. We then had an accident with a friends puppy - puppy licking her face and she snapping, piece of the tongue had to be removed. Then again in the park she growled at a middleaged bitch who attacked her, so now she only gets to go to the park when I know the dogs that are there, and I know they get along. If a new dog arrives at the park, I ask the owner to wait, I put my old girl on a leash and put her outside the park. This has worked for us, my younger dog gets to play - my older dog sometimes gets to interact with her "old friends" and no one gets hurt. So even if you feel sorry for your dog because you can't let her play - put her on a leash or leave her at home. If she snaps at other dogs it is also a sign that she isn't very happy about the situation. Don't wait for something worse to happen. Rosa |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"CardioActive" wrote in message ink.net... Here's a tale for you. I have two dogs I adopted from a rescue agency - Keena and Stefi. Both are females who were both about 4-5 years old when I met them. Keena is never a problem. I took her to dog training classes and applied the same techniques to Stefi when I got her. Stefi is about 45 pounds and when you look closely at her ears you'll see lots of scar tissue from old dog fights. After I adopted her, I found out about her past. She had been kept in a kennel at a no-kill animal shelter for almost two years because she was "too aggressive". No one would adopt her. Today, a lot of people who know her laugh because she is so ridiculously affectionate with strangers (including kids). However other dogs are another story. In my town there are a lot of leash free dog parks and my dogs love to visit. We go almost everyday. I've been working hard trying to better socialize Stefi and we've made lots of progress. I've noticed that when Stefi finds herself in a crowd of people and dogs all bunched together she gets very nervous. Her smiling face will suddenly disappear, her eyes turn coal black, she snarls and the aggressively lashes out at a nearby dog (especially smaller ones). If I see it, I intercept and stop it by shouting "be nice" to her. It seems to work. But I can't take my eye off of her for even a second. I've also noticed after she lashes out at a dog, she never does it again to that dog. Today, after a year and a half of trying to socialize her, she bit another dog in the face so badly, the owner had to take his dog to an emergency vet clinic. It was a bloody mess. Fortunately, the dog wasn't seriously injured but I got to pay a $60 vet bill for the owner. The victim dog was a small breed (Italian greyhound?) Stefi has previously caught and killed a rat and baby opossum in my backyard and some small breeds are not much larger. I'm now very hesitant about taking her back to the park. And what about my other dog who was not involved. Do I leave Stefi at home and take Keena? Any ideas for training regimens? Remember this is a leash free area that's quite large. Any help with my problem is greatly appreciated. My bitch used to tell young dogs and most males to back off, but as she got older she started doing this more and more fiercly. Then she scratched a dog in the park (fenced in dogpark), the owner didn't notice until she got home. I might never have known if I hadn't seen the scratch a few days later and asked how he got it. After this I avoided taking here to the park if there were any young males there. We then had an accident with a friends puppy - puppy licking her face and she snapping, piece of the tongue had to be removed. Then again in the park she growled at a middleaged bitch who attacked her, so now she only gets to go to the park when I know the dogs that are there, and I know they get along. If a new dog arrives at the park, I ask the owner to wait, I put my old girl on a leash and put her outside the park. This has worked for us, my younger dog gets to play - my older dog sometimes gets to interact with her "old friends" and no one gets hurt. So even if you feel sorry for your dog because you can't let her play - put her on a leash or leave her at home. If she snaps at other dogs it is also a sign that she isn't very happy about the situation. Don't wait for something worse to happen. Rosa |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
"CardioActive" wrote in message ink.net... Here's a tale for you. I have two dogs I adopted from a rescue agency - Keena and Stefi. Both are females who were both about 4-5 years old when I met them. Keena is never a problem. I took her to dog training classes and applied the same techniques to Stefi when I got her. Stefi is about 45 pounds and when you look closely at her ears you'll see lots of scar tissue from old dog fights. After I adopted her, I found out about her past. She had been kept in a kennel at a no-kill animal shelter for almost two years because she was "too aggressive". No one would adopt her. Today, a lot of people who know her laugh because she is so ridiculously affectionate with strangers (including kids). However other dogs are another story. In my town there are a lot of leash free dog parks and my dogs love to visit. We go almost everyday. I've been working hard trying to better socialize Stefi and we've made lots of progress. I've noticed that when Stefi finds herself in a crowd of people and dogs all bunched together she gets very nervous. Her smiling face will suddenly disappear, her eyes turn coal black, she snarls and the aggressively lashes out at a nearby dog (especially smaller ones). If I see it, I intercept and stop it by shouting "be nice" to her. It seems to work. But I can't take my eye off of her for even a second. I've also noticed after she lashes out at a dog, she never does it again to that dog. Today, after a year and a half of trying to socialize her, she bit another dog in the face so badly, the owner had to take his dog to an emergency vet clinic. It was a bloody mess. Fortunately, the dog wasn't seriously injured but I got to pay a $60 vet bill for the owner. The victim dog was a small breed (Italian greyhound?) Stefi has previously caught and killed a rat and baby opossum in my backyard and some small breeds are not much larger. I'm now very hesitant about taking her back to the park. And what about my other dog who was not involved. Do I leave Stefi at home and take Keena? Any ideas for training regimens? Remember this is a leash free area that's quite large. Any help with my problem is greatly appreciated. My bitch used to tell young dogs and most males to back off, but as she got older she started doing this more and more fiercly. Then she scratched a dog in the park (fenced in dogpark), the owner didn't notice until she got home. I might never have known if I hadn't seen the scratch a few days later and asked how he got it. After this I avoided taking here to the park if there were any young males there. We then had an accident with a friends puppy - puppy licking her face and she snapping, piece of the tongue had to be removed. Then again in the park she growled at a middleaged bitch who attacked her, so now she only gets to go to the park when I know the dogs that are there, and I know they get along. If a new dog arrives at the park, I ask the owner to wait, I put my old girl on a leash and put her outside the park. This has worked for us, my younger dog gets to play - my older dog sometimes gets to interact with her "old friends" and no one gets hurt. So even if you feel sorry for your dog because you can't let her play - put her on a leash or leave her at home. If she snaps at other dogs it is also a sign that she isn't very happy about the situation. Don't wait for something worse to happen. Rosa |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Sounds like she has been in a lot of physical confrontrations with other
animals that didn't end well for her, and subsequently has found that she need to defend herself by showing who is boss first. She doesn't know any better, in other words, because in her mind ALL dogs are a threat, and need to be shown that she is not to be toyed with. She is afraid. At this age, a professional one-on-one trainer may be beneficial, but it might also be a good bet that she will never be like "other dogs"- the ones who have been properly socialized from a young age, and who accept other dogs and people on more acceptable terms. She may always be untrustworthy around other dogs. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
dont smack! | M.H. Greaves. | Dog behavior | 106 | December 10th 03 04:02 AM |