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advice please; dog will not retrieve



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 19th 04, 10:48 PM
MartinF
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default advice please; dog will not retrieve

Hi

Just got a new dog

She is a 4 yearold collie and until I got her she had lived with a dominant
male retriever dog for 2 years.

The male dog did all the retrieving and he did not allow her to join in
..She merely ran behind him.

Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will not
return with the item.

She will return to me if I use the "here" command (but without the item).

Have tried standing by the "safe" spot but she then selects a new "safe"
spot about 15 yards away where she will place any thrown items.

It seems she enjoys now being allowed to run after items and pick them up.

Her mind cannot connect that I want her to return to me with the thrown
item.

Otherwise she is a delightfull well mannered happy collie and responds to
all other commands

Has any kind soul got any hints/tips that will help her learn the full
retrieve ??

thanks for reading this
--

Martin

please remove spamtrap if replying direct





  #2  
Old May 19th 04, 11:22 PM
Judy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"MartinF" wrote in message
...
Hi

Just got a new dog
Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will not
return with the item.

She will return to me if I use the "here" command (but without the item).
Has any kind soul got any hints/tips that will help her learn the full
retrieve ??


What I would try is to start with teaching her to swap for a treat. When
she has a toy in her mouth, teach her to Give in return for a treat.

Then move on to tossing her the toy and coming the one step, two steps,
three steps to Give it to you for the treat. Increase the distance as she
progresses.

Usually, at some point, she will drop the toy to come to you for the treat.
Send her back to Get It. No treat for coming without the toy. And if
necessary, go back to the last point that she had it right and reinforce.
Slowly increase distances.

It's hard to overcome habits that they have from a previous life - even when
the previous life was a perfectly good one. It's just different and they
have to learn new things.

For instance, we have two dogs. One will fetch toys - sometimes because he
wants us to play with him and sometimes during a game of fetch. (He has a
limit of three times. If you throw it four times, you'd better be prepared
to go get it yourself.). The other dog came to us at almost two years old
after living with a lot of other dogs. She doesn't think of humans as toy
playmates. Toys are to play with by yourself or with other dogs. She likes
the game where we throw it and she pounces on it but retrieving it for any
reason (or to any place) just doesn't make sense to her. We're working with
her on just playing tug games. Then we can start tossing the tug. (Balls
mean nothing to her.)

~~Judy



  #3  
Old May 19th 04, 11:22 PM
Judy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"MartinF" wrote in message
...
Hi

Just got a new dog
Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will not
return with the item.

She will return to me if I use the "here" command (but without the item).
Has any kind soul got any hints/tips that will help her learn the full
retrieve ??


What I would try is to start with teaching her to swap for a treat. When
she has a toy in her mouth, teach her to Give in return for a treat.

Then move on to tossing her the toy and coming the one step, two steps,
three steps to Give it to you for the treat. Increase the distance as she
progresses.

Usually, at some point, she will drop the toy to come to you for the treat.
Send her back to Get It. No treat for coming without the toy. And if
necessary, go back to the last point that she had it right and reinforce.
Slowly increase distances.

It's hard to overcome habits that they have from a previous life - even when
the previous life was a perfectly good one. It's just different and they
have to learn new things.

For instance, we have two dogs. One will fetch toys - sometimes because he
wants us to play with him and sometimes during a game of fetch. (He has a
limit of three times. If you throw it four times, you'd better be prepared
to go get it yourself.). The other dog came to us at almost two years old
after living with a lot of other dogs. She doesn't think of humans as toy
playmates. Toys are to play with by yourself or with other dogs. She likes
the game where we throw it and she pounces on it but retrieving it for any
reason (or to any place) just doesn't make sense to her. We're working with
her on just playing tug games. Then we can start tossing the tug. (Balls
mean nothing to her.)

~~Judy



  #4  
Old May 19th 04, 11:22 PM
Judy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"MartinF" wrote in message
...
Hi

Just got a new dog
Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will not
return with the item.

She will return to me if I use the "here" command (but without the item).
Has any kind soul got any hints/tips that will help her learn the full
retrieve ??


What I would try is to start with teaching her to swap for a treat. When
she has a toy in her mouth, teach her to Give in return for a treat.

Then move on to tossing her the toy and coming the one step, two steps,
three steps to Give it to you for the treat. Increase the distance as she
progresses.

Usually, at some point, she will drop the toy to come to you for the treat.
Send her back to Get It. No treat for coming without the toy. And if
necessary, go back to the last point that she had it right and reinforce.
Slowly increase distances.

It's hard to overcome habits that they have from a previous life - even when
the previous life was a perfectly good one. It's just different and they
have to learn new things.

For instance, we have two dogs. One will fetch toys - sometimes because he
wants us to play with him and sometimes during a game of fetch. (He has a
limit of three times. If you throw it four times, you'd better be prepared
to go get it yourself.). The other dog came to us at almost two years old
after living with a lot of other dogs. She doesn't think of humans as toy
playmates. Toys are to play with by yourself or with other dogs. She likes
the game where we throw it and she pounces on it but retrieving it for any
reason (or to any place) just doesn't make sense to her. We're working with
her on just playing tug games. Then we can start tossing the tug. (Balls
mean nothing to her.)

~~Judy



  #5  
Old May 20th 04, 06:15 AM
B&S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"MartinF" wrote in message
...
Hi

Just got a new dog

She is a 4 yearold collie and until I got her she had lived with a

dominant
male retriever dog for 2 years.

The male dog did all the retrieving and he did not allow her to join in
.She merely ran behind him.

Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will not
return with the item.

She will return to me if I use the "here" command (but without the item).

Have tried standing by the "safe" spot but she then selects a new "safe"
spot about 15 yards away where she will place any thrown items.

It seems she enjoys now being allowed to run after items and pick them up.

Her mind cannot connect that I want her to return to me with the thrown
item.

Otherwise she is a delightfull well mannered happy collie and responds to
all other commands

Has any kind soul got any hints/tips that will help her learn the full
retrieve ??



Hi Martin,

We have an ESS that hubby trained who retrieves very well for hubby and most
things well for me (except for her fetish, the socks she steals from my
laundry basket).

What really helped her learn to fetch was to first teach her to "hold" until
told to "leave" (or drop). Then moved on to the fetching/retrieving
(sometimes *I* still have to occassionally tell her to hold (like with the
socks) to get her to bring them to me, as she would much prefer to leave
them in her kennel (where she hides with them).

Here is a site that describes pretty much the sequence that the trainer and
hubby used, and our dog learned pretty quickly.

http://www.thunderheadkennels.com/tips/forcefetch.html

I don't think he had to use "the pressure" this guy describes, though I may
be wrong. She does this all very well for me without any of the
"reinforcement". : ) Though hubby did work with her A LOT on basic
obedience when we first got her.

Some of the people in rec.dogs.hunting are trainers or have a lot of
experience training dogs to retrieve, so maybe you'd want to post there....

Good luck!

Shelly




  #6  
Old May 20th 04, 06:15 AM
B&S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"MartinF" wrote in message
...
Hi

Just got a new dog

She is a 4 yearold collie and until I got her she had lived with a

dominant
male retriever dog for 2 years.

The male dog did all the retrieving and he did not allow her to join in
.She merely ran behind him.

Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will not
return with the item.

She will return to me if I use the "here" command (but without the item).

Have tried standing by the "safe" spot but she then selects a new "safe"
spot about 15 yards away where she will place any thrown items.

It seems she enjoys now being allowed to run after items and pick them up.

Her mind cannot connect that I want her to return to me with the thrown
item.

Otherwise she is a delightfull well mannered happy collie and responds to
all other commands

Has any kind soul got any hints/tips that will help her learn the full
retrieve ??



Hi Martin,

We have an ESS that hubby trained who retrieves very well for hubby and most
things well for me (except for her fetish, the socks she steals from my
laundry basket).

What really helped her learn to fetch was to first teach her to "hold" until
told to "leave" (or drop). Then moved on to the fetching/retrieving
(sometimes *I* still have to occassionally tell her to hold (like with the
socks) to get her to bring them to me, as she would much prefer to leave
them in her kennel (where she hides with them).

Here is a site that describes pretty much the sequence that the trainer and
hubby used, and our dog learned pretty quickly.

http://www.thunderheadkennels.com/tips/forcefetch.html

I don't think he had to use "the pressure" this guy describes, though I may
be wrong. She does this all very well for me without any of the
"reinforcement". : ) Though hubby did work with her A LOT on basic
obedience when we first got her.

Some of the people in rec.dogs.hunting are trainers or have a lot of
experience training dogs to retrieve, so maybe you'd want to post there....

Good luck!

Shelly




  #7  
Old May 20th 04, 06:15 AM
B&S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"MartinF" wrote in message
...
Hi

Just got a new dog

She is a 4 yearold collie and until I got her she had lived with a

dominant
male retriever dog for 2 years.

The male dog did all the retrieving and he did not allow her to join in
.She merely ran behind him.

Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will not
return with the item.

She will return to me if I use the "here" command (but without the item).

Have tried standing by the "safe" spot but she then selects a new "safe"
spot about 15 yards away where she will place any thrown items.

It seems she enjoys now being allowed to run after items and pick them up.

Her mind cannot connect that I want her to return to me with the thrown
item.

Otherwise she is a delightfull well mannered happy collie and responds to
all other commands

Has any kind soul got any hints/tips that will help her learn the full
retrieve ??



Hi Martin,

We have an ESS that hubby trained who retrieves very well for hubby and most
things well for me (except for her fetish, the socks she steals from my
laundry basket).

What really helped her learn to fetch was to first teach her to "hold" until
told to "leave" (or drop). Then moved on to the fetching/retrieving
(sometimes *I* still have to occassionally tell her to hold (like with the
socks) to get her to bring them to me, as she would much prefer to leave
them in her kennel (where she hides with them).

Here is a site that describes pretty much the sequence that the trainer and
hubby used, and our dog learned pretty quickly.

http://www.thunderheadkennels.com/tips/forcefetch.html

I don't think he had to use "the pressure" this guy describes, though I may
be wrong. She does this all very well for me without any of the
"reinforcement". : ) Though hubby did work with her A LOT on basic
obedience when we first got her.

Some of the people in rec.dogs.hunting are trainers or have a lot of
experience training dogs to retrieve, so maybe you'd want to post there....

Good luck!

Shelly




  #8  
Old May 20th 04, 03:37 PM
KWBrown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"B&S" wrote in
:


"MartinF" wrote in message
...


She is a 4 yearold collie and until I got her she had lived with a

dominant
male retriever dog for 2 years.

Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will
not return with the item.

Here is a site that describes pretty much the sequence that the
trainer and hubby used, and our dog learned pretty quickly.

http://www.thunderheadkennels.com/tips/forcefetch.html

Some of the people in rec.dogs.hunting are trainers or have a lot of
experience training dogs to retrieve, so maybe you'd want to post
there....


(Retriever Field Trainer here...)

I'm not at all convinced that going through a force fetch program is
necessary or appropriate for this dog. OP is, I think, looking for a
play fetch. The force fetch is a way to teach the dog that it *must*
pick up the object - it is less focussed on the return, which is what
the OP's dog is having trouble with.

That said, I'm of two minds, Martin.

As another poster said, you may just choose to accept that you have the
dog you have. Collies are going to be much more interested in the chase
than the return anyhow - and if you want to shape the return, you're
going to have to interest her in coming back for something that is
*much* higher value than the thing you threw.

If it were my dog:

I'd make sure there were no distractions, no other dogs, and no great
hiding spots in a fenced, otherwise dull, dull, dull location. Try a
local tennis court at 6AM.

Have a toy that doesn't roll far and isn't her absolute favourite in the
world: and have a pocket full of the smelliest, yummiest treats you can
find. (If she isn't food motivated, get her mostest favouritest thing
in the world).

With her nearby, on lead, give her the toy and then trade it for the
stinky thing. Then toss the toy a little way away and then trade it for
the stinky thing. Take very, very small steps - and start to lenghen
the throws out. This could take days and days of patient confidence
building. If she blows you off, run away from her. I suspect her
Herding Dog self will be inclined to chase.

I'd play this game on a long line until she's really bulletproof. As
you move along, you'll grow it into a 15' throw. She chases, picks up.
You say, "here!" If she comes in with the toy, treat. If not, try
giving the long line a little tug to get her attention. When she looks
up, praise and offer the treat again. You can encourage her attention
and her return this way: do *not* use the line to drag her in. It's
just to keep her from getting too far away and to give you a way to get
her attention.

What you're really doing here is also training a good recall. Couple
"here" to the return behaviour, and you're building a retrieve and a
recall.

She may never choose to return to you if there's another dog around.

She just may not have much retrieving in her, and find her joy in
chasing other dogs.

Have fun taking this as far as you can, and enjoy your lovely girl.

--
Kate and Storm the Flat-Coated Retriever ("Is that a Collie-Greyhound
Cross?")
  #9  
Old May 20th 04, 03:37 PM
KWBrown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"B&S" wrote in
:


"MartinF" wrote in message
...


She is a 4 yearold collie and until I got her she had lived with a

dominant
male retriever dog for 2 years.

Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will
not return with the item.

Here is a site that describes pretty much the sequence that the
trainer and hubby used, and our dog learned pretty quickly.

http://www.thunderheadkennels.com/tips/forcefetch.html

Some of the people in rec.dogs.hunting are trainers or have a lot of
experience training dogs to retrieve, so maybe you'd want to post
there....


(Retriever Field Trainer here...)

I'm not at all convinced that going through a force fetch program is
necessary or appropriate for this dog. OP is, I think, looking for a
play fetch. The force fetch is a way to teach the dog that it *must*
pick up the object - it is less focussed on the return, which is what
the OP's dog is having trouble with.

That said, I'm of two minds, Martin.

As another poster said, you may just choose to accept that you have the
dog you have. Collies are going to be much more interested in the chase
than the return anyhow - and if you want to shape the return, you're
going to have to interest her in coming back for something that is
*much* higher value than the thing you threw.

If it were my dog:

I'd make sure there were no distractions, no other dogs, and no great
hiding spots in a fenced, otherwise dull, dull, dull location. Try a
local tennis court at 6AM.

Have a toy that doesn't roll far and isn't her absolute favourite in the
world: and have a pocket full of the smelliest, yummiest treats you can
find. (If she isn't food motivated, get her mostest favouritest thing
in the world).

With her nearby, on lead, give her the toy and then trade it for the
stinky thing. Then toss the toy a little way away and then trade it for
the stinky thing. Take very, very small steps - and start to lenghen
the throws out. This could take days and days of patient confidence
building. If she blows you off, run away from her. I suspect her
Herding Dog self will be inclined to chase.

I'd play this game on a long line until she's really bulletproof. As
you move along, you'll grow it into a 15' throw. She chases, picks up.
You say, "here!" If she comes in with the toy, treat. If not, try
giving the long line a little tug to get her attention. When she looks
up, praise and offer the treat again. You can encourage her attention
and her return this way: do *not* use the line to drag her in. It's
just to keep her from getting too far away and to give you a way to get
her attention.

What you're really doing here is also training a good recall. Couple
"here" to the return behaviour, and you're building a retrieve and a
recall.

She may never choose to return to you if there's another dog around.

She just may not have much retrieving in her, and find her joy in
chasing other dogs.

Have fun taking this as far as you can, and enjoy your lovely girl.

--
Kate and Storm the Flat-Coated Retriever ("Is that a Collie-Greyhound
Cross?")
  #10  
Old May 20th 04, 03:37 PM
KWBrown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"B&S" wrote in
:


"MartinF" wrote in message
...


She is a 4 yearold collie and until I got her she had lived with a

dominant
male retriever dog for 2 years.

Now whenever I throw anything she takes it to a "safe" spot and will
not return with the item.

Here is a site that describes pretty much the sequence that the
trainer and hubby used, and our dog learned pretty quickly.

http://www.thunderheadkennels.com/tips/forcefetch.html

Some of the people in rec.dogs.hunting are trainers or have a lot of
experience training dogs to retrieve, so maybe you'd want to post
there....


(Retriever Field Trainer here...)

I'm not at all convinced that going through a force fetch program is
necessary or appropriate for this dog. OP is, I think, looking for a
play fetch. The force fetch is a way to teach the dog that it *must*
pick up the object - it is less focussed on the return, which is what
the OP's dog is having trouble with.

That said, I'm of two minds, Martin.

As another poster said, you may just choose to accept that you have the
dog you have. Collies are going to be much more interested in the chase
than the return anyhow - and if you want to shape the return, you're
going to have to interest her in coming back for something that is
*much* higher value than the thing you threw.

If it were my dog:

I'd make sure there were no distractions, no other dogs, and no great
hiding spots in a fenced, otherwise dull, dull, dull location. Try a
local tennis court at 6AM.

Have a toy that doesn't roll far and isn't her absolute favourite in the
world: and have a pocket full of the smelliest, yummiest treats you can
find. (If she isn't food motivated, get her mostest favouritest thing
in the world).

With her nearby, on lead, give her the toy and then trade it for the
stinky thing. Then toss the toy a little way away and then trade it for
the stinky thing. Take very, very small steps - and start to lenghen
the throws out. This could take days and days of patient confidence
building. If she blows you off, run away from her. I suspect her
Herding Dog self will be inclined to chase.

I'd play this game on a long line until she's really bulletproof. As
you move along, you'll grow it into a 15' throw. She chases, picks up.
You say, "here!" If she comes in with the toy, treat. If not, try
giving the long line a little tug to get her attention. When she looks
up, praise and offer the treat again. You can encourage her attention
and her return this way: do *not* use the line to drag her in. It's
just to keep her from getting too far away and to give you a way to get
her attention.

What you're really doing here is also training a good recall. Couple
"here" to the return behaviour, and you're building a retrieve and a
recall.

She may never choose to return to you if there's another dog around.

She just may not have much retrieving in her, and find her joy in
chasing other dogs.

Have fun taking this as far as you can, and enjoy your lovely girl.

--
Kate and Storm the Flat-Coated Retriever ("Is that a Collie-Greyhound
Cross?")
 




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