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Why PRAISE is better than treats, clickers...



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 24th 04, 01:58 PM
James Agnew
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why PRAISE is better than treats, clickers...

As a child I grew up on a farm with 3 border collies, each of whom
worked the various animals we had - geese, ducks, cattle, sheep goats
etc.

After a very long wait(20 years!) I now have a beatiful border collie
puppy of my own. In trying to find the best method to training her, I
recently spoke with some distant relatives, many of whom were
shepherds/farmers to find out how they used to train their (incredibly
talented) dogs ...and guess what?

Every single one of them taught their border collies through praise,
love and respect. The word "No" was NEVER UTTERED on the farm. Ears
were NEVER pulled/pinched/twisted. There were no shock collars,
scruffing, alpha-rolls...

Can you imagine an old shepherd, whilst out on the barren moors,
feeding teeny-weeny pieces of cheese or sausage to his dogs in order
to get them to sit?

They praised EVER RIGHT ACTION and reinfored the action with a
command. If the dog sat when it should have layed down, it was STILL
praised and the command 'sit' was reinforced. No opportunity to praise
was overlooked. If the dog was doing something it shouldn't e.g.
nipping a sheep's hoof, they blew a whistle to distract its attention,
called the dog's name and praised it. This carried on until the dog no
longer nipped... and then it was praised again, but this time without
the whistle. The dog never knew that the whisting came from the
shepherd, as he would always turn his back to the dog the moment he
blew this whistle, and then turn back immediatly to face (and smile)
at the dog.

They used to whisper to their dogs! Even if the dogs screwed up a side
run past the sheep, the shepherd would hide his disappointment and
would actually PRAISE the dog for simply coming back to him.

It strikes me, therefore, that Jerry Howe's oft-derided methodology is
the ONLY logical way for me to train my dog. How can one expect to be
become the centre of the dog's universe if you bribe it with treats,
shout at it, roll it over on its back and show it "who's boss", hurt
it, humiliate it, spray it with water, or crush its fragile confidence
in its leader?

I've just started his method and I'll update you with my progress, but
I can say already that even in areas of high distraction (like the
local park) when I whisper my dogs name, she turns around to look at
me FAR more readily than before - and she's not even 4 months old yet
:-)

Take care all.

James
  #2  
Old May 24th 04, 03:09 PM
Sionnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Every single one of them taught their border collies through praise,
love and respect. The word "No" was NEVER UTTERED on the farm.


An unlikely claim, given that the word "no" is used in ordinary everyday
conversation.



Ears
were NEVER pulled/pinched/twisted. There were no shock collars,
scruffing, alpha-rolls...

Can you imagine an old shepherd, whilst out on the barren moors,
feeding teeny-weeny pieces of cheese or sausage to his dogs in order
to get them to sit?


No, but not because of your distorted idea of how dogs are trained. First,
"old shepherds" on the "barren moors" were unlikely to be training their
dogs to sit. IF there was a need for that command, it would have been taught
long before they went out on the "barren moors" to work the sheep.
Second, if they did use food as part of teaching the dog to sit, it
wouldn't have been a matter of "feeding...to GET THEM to sit"- not if they
were training correctly.




They praised EVER RIGHT ACTION and reinfored the action with a
command.


Please describe more clearly how one "reinforces an action with a
command".



If the dog sat when it should have layed down, it was STILL
praised and the command 'sit' was reinforced.


Very poor training, and likely to lead to a very confused dog. And if the
dog was asked to down, no command to sit had been given- therefore, it would
be impossible to "reinforce the command sit".


No opportunity to praise
was overlooked. If the dog was doing something it shouldn't e.g.
nipping a sheep's hoof, they blew a whistle to distract its attention,
called the dog's name and praised it. This carried on until the dog no
longer nipped... and then it was praised again, but this time without
the whistle. The dog never knew that the whisting came from the
shepherd, as he would always turn his back to the dog the moment he
blew this whistle, and then turn back immediatly to face (and smile)
at the dog.


This is a very nice little fantasy, but doesn't jibe with anything I've
read about how "old shepherds" actually trained their dogs, nor about how
people with working BCs train them today. Among other things, whistling is
used to DIRECT the dogs, not to correct them.
And btw, in this scenario, the whistle is being used *exactly* as the word
"no" would be.


  #3  
Old May 24th 04, 03:09 PM
Sionnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Every single one of them taught their border collies through praise,
love and respect. The word "No" was NEVER UTTERED on the farm.


An unlikely claim, given that the word "no" is used in ordinary everyday
conversation.



Ears
were NEVER pulled/pinched/twisted. There were no shock collars,
scruffing, alpha-rolls...

Can you imagine an old shepherd, whilst out on the barren moors,
feeding teeny-weeny pieces of cheese or sausage to his dogs in order
to get them to sit?


No, but not because of your distorted idea of how dogs are trained. First,
"old shepherds" on the "barren moors" were unlikely to be training their
dogs to sit. IF there was a need for that command, it would have been taught
long before they went out on the "barren moors" to work the sheep.
Second, if they did use food as part of teaching the dog to sit, it
wouldn't have been a matter of "feeding...to GET THEM to sit"- not if they
were training correctly.




They praised EVER RIGHT ACTION and reinfored the action with a
command.


Please describe more clearly how one "reinforces an action with a
command".



If the dog sat when it should have layed down, it was STILL
praised and the command 'sit' was reinforced.


Very poor training, and likely to lead to a very confused dog. And if the
dog was asked to down, no command to sit had been given- therefore, it would
be impossible to "reinforce the command sit".


No opportunity to praise
was overlooked. If the dog was doing something it shouldn't e.g.
nipping a sheep's hoof, they blew a whistle to distract its attention,
called the dog's name and praised it. This carried on until the dog no
longer nipped... and then it was praised again, but this time without
the whistle. The dog never knew that the whisting came from the
shepherd, as he would always turn his back to the dog the moment he
blew this whistle, and then turn back immediatly to face (and smile)
at the dog.


This is a very nice little fantasy, but doesn't jibe with anything I've
read about how "old shepherds" actually trained their dogs, nor about how
people with working BCs train them today. Among other things, whistling is
used to DIRECT the dogs, not to correct them.
And btw, in this scenario, the whistle is being used *exactly* as the word
"no" would be.


  #4  
Old May 24th 04, 03:09 PM
Sionnach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Every single one of them taught their border collies through praise,
love and respect. The word "No" was NEVER UTTERED on the farm.


An unlikely claim, given that the word "no" is used in ordinary everyday
conversation.



Ears
were NEVER pulled/pinched/twisted. There were no shock collars,
scruffing, alpha-rolls...

Can you imagine an old shepherd, whilst out on the barren moors,
feeding teeny-weeny pieces of cheese or sausage to his dogs in order
to get them to sit?


No, but not because of your distorted idea of how dogs are trained. First,
"old shepherds" on the "barren moors" were unlikely to be training their
dogs to sit. IF there was a need for that command, it would have been taught
long before they went out on the "barren moors" to work the sheep.
Second, if they did use food as part of teaching the dog to sit, it
wouldn't have been a matter of "feeding...to GET THEM to sit"- not if they
were training correctly.




They praised EVER RIGHT ACTION and reinfored the action with a
command.


Please describe more clearly how one "reinforces an action with a
command".



If the dog sat when it should have layed down, it was STILL
praised and the command 'sit' was reinforced.


Very poor training, and likely to lead to a very confused dog. And if the
dog was asked to down, no command to sit had been given- therefore, it would
be impossible to "reinforce the command sit".


No opportunity to praise
was overlooked. If the dog was doing something it shouldn't e.g.
nipping a sheep's hoof, they blew a whistle to distract its attention,
called the dog's name and praised it. This carried on until the dog no
longer nipped... and then it was praised again, but this time without
the whistle. The dog never knew that the whisting came from the
shepherd, as he would always turn his back to the dog the moment he
blew this whistle, and then turn back immediatly to face (and smile)
at the dog.


This is a very nice little fantasy, but doesn't jibe with anything I've
read about how "old shepherds" actually trained their dogs, nor about how
people with working BCs train them today. Among other things, whistling is
used to DIRECT the dogs, not to correct them.
And btw, in this scenario, the whistle is being used *exactly* as the word
"no" would be.


  #5  
Old May 24th 04, 09:17 PM
James Agnew
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hello Sionnach,

"Sionnach" wrote in message ...
Every single one of them taught their border collies through praise,
love and respect. The word "No" was NEVER UTTERED on the farm.


An unlikely claim, given that the word "no" is used in ordinary everyday
conversation.

It's not an unlikely claim at all, unless of course I or my relatives
are lying which is, of course, something you'd never dream of
suggesting :-)

Ears
were NEVER pulled/pinched/twisted. There were no shock collars,
scruffing, alpha-rolls...

Can you imagine an old shepherd, whilst out on the barren moors,
feeding teeny-weeny pieces of cheese or sausage to his dogs in order
to get them to sit?


No, but not because of your distorted idea of how dogs are trained. First,
"old shepherds" on the "barren moors" were unlikely to be training their
dogs to sit. IF there was a need for that command, it would have been taught
long before they went out on the "barren moors" to work the sheep.
Second, if they did use food as part of teaching the dog to sit, it
wouldn't have been a matter of "feeding...to GET THEM to sit"- not if they
were training correctly.

Sionnach, you take things *very* seriously - lighten up a little!
Surely the words "teeny-weeny pieces" made it obvious that I was
pulling your leg a little! I'm well aware of what these shepherds need
to do, and it certainly wasn't accomplished through little treats,
shock collars, scruffing, alpha-rolls etc


They praised EVER RIGHT ACTION and reinfored the action with a
command.


Please describe more clearly how one "reinforces an action with a
command".

Simple. If that dog happened to lay down, it would be praised and the
action of laying down would be tied to the word "down".

If the dog sat when it should have layed down, it was STILL
praised and the command 'sit' was reinforced.


Very poor training, and likely to lead to a very confused dog. And if the
dog was asked to down, no command to sit had been given- therefore, it would
be impossible to "reinforce the command sit".

Sionnach, not at all! The shepherd did not wait for the dog to sit,
before giving the command. If he saw that the dog was edging towards a
sit not a stay, he would reinforce that decision with a "sit" command.
This work would be reinforced by what I mentioned earlier, i.e.the dog
naturally lying down would be given the word "down" and be praised. -
simply reinforcing what came naturally to the dog.

No opportunity to praise
was overlooked. If the dog was doing something it shouldn't e.g.
nipping a sheep's hoof, they blew a whistle to distract its attention,
called the dog's name and praised it. This carried on until the dog no
longer nipped... and then it was praised again, but this time without
the whistle. The dog never knew that the whisting came from the
shepherd, as he would always turn his back to the dog the moment he
blew this whistle, and then turn back immediatly to face (and smile)
at the dog.


This is a very nice little fantasy, but doesn't jibe with anything I've
read about how "old shepherds" actually trained their dogs, nor about how
people with working BCs train them today. Among other things, whistling is
used to DIRECT the dogs, not to correct them.
And btw, in this scenario, the whistle is being used *exactly* as the word
"no" would be.


Not at all! These dogs were commanded by voice alone - never a
whistle, which is why the whistle was used in training.

You're wrong by the way - the whistle is *not* being used as the word
"no" would be. The whistle was used a *distraction* and was NEVER
linked to the shepherd. The word "no" is an admonishment and is
inextricably linked to the shepherd. There's a world of difference!

A wee word to the fox - you would almost certainly never speak to
somebody upon meeting them for the first time with such things as:

"An unlikely claim"
"your distorted idea"
"this is a very nice little fantasy"

....so why not try acting in a warmer, friendlier less confrontational
way?

It's much EASIER!

Take care, James
  #6  
Old May 24th 04, 09:17 PM
James Agnew
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hello Sionnach,

"Sionnach" wrote in message ...
Every single one of them taught their border collies through praise,
love and respect. The word "No" was NEVER UTTERED on the farm.


An unlikely claim, given that the word "no" is used in ordinary everyday
conversation.

It's not an unlikely claim at all, unless of course I or my relatives
are lying which is, of course, something you'd never dream of
suggesting :-)

Ears
were NEVER pulled/pinched/twisted. There were no shock collars,
scruffing, alpha-rolls...

Can you imagine an old shepherd, whilst out on the barren moors,
feeding teeny-weeny pieces of cheese or sausage to his dogs in order
to get them to sit?


No, but not because of your distorted idea of how dogs are trained. First,
"old shepherds" on the "barren moors" were unlikely to be training their
dogs to sit. IF there was a need for that command, it would have been taught
long before they went out on the "barren moors" to work the sheep.
Second, if they did use food as part of teaching the dog to sit, it
wouldn't have been a matter of "feeding...to GET THEM to sit"- not if they
were training correctly.

Sionnach, you take things *very* seriously - lighten up a little!
Surely the words "teeny-weeny pieces" made it obvious that I was
pulling your leg a little! I'm well aware of what these shepherds need
to do, and it certainly wasn't accomplished through little treats,
shock collars, scruffing, alpha-rolls etc


They praised EVER RIGHT ACTION and reinfored the action with a
command.


Please describe more clearly how one "reinforces an action with a
command".

Simple. If that dog happened to lay down, it would be praised and the
action of laying down would be tied to the word "down".

If the dog sat when it should have layed down, it was STILL
praised and the command 'sit' was reinforced.


Very poor training, and likely to lead to a very confused dog. And if the
dog was asked to down, no command to sit had been given- therefore, it would
be impossible to "reinforce the command sit".

Sionnach, not at all! The shepherd did not wait for the dog to sit,
before giving the command. If he saw that the dog was edging towards a
sit not a stay, he would reinforce that decision with a "sit" command.
This work would be reinforced by what I mentioned earlier, i.e.the dog
naturally lying down would be given the word "down" and be praised. -
simply reinforcing what came naturally to the dog.

No opportunity to praise
was overlooked. If the dog was doing something it shouldn't e.g.
nipping a sheep's hoof, they blew a whistle to distract its attention,
called the dog's name and praised it. This carried on until the dog no
longer nipped... and then it was praised again, but this time without
the whistle. The dog never knew that the whisting came from the
shepherd, as he would always turn his back to the dog the moment he
blew this whistle, and then turn back immediatly to face (and smile)
at the dog.


This is a very nice little fantasy, but doesn't jibe with anything I've
read about how "old shepherds" actually trained their dogs, nor about how
people with working BCs train them today. Among other things, whistling is
used to DIRECT the dogs, not to correct them.
And btw, in this scenario, the whistle is being used *exactly* as the word
"no" would be.


Not at all! These dogs were commanded by voice alone - never a
whistle, which is why the whistle was used in training.

You're wrong by the way - the whistle is *not* being used as the word
"no" would be. The whistle was used a *distraction* and was NEVER
linked to the shepherd. The word "no" is an admonishment and is
inextricably linked to the shepherd. There's a world of difference!

A wee word to the fox - you would almost certainly never speak to
somebody upon meeting them for the first time with such things as:

"An unlikely claim"
"your distorted idea"
"this is a very nice little fantasy"

....so why not try acting in a warmer, friendlier less confrontational
way?

It's much EASIER!

Take care, James
  #7  
Old May 24th 04, 09:17 PM
James Agnew
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hello Sionnach,

"Sionnach" wrote in message ...
Every single one of them taught their border collies through praise,
love and respect. The word "No" was NEVER UTTERED on the farm.


An unlikely claim, given that the word "no" is used in ordinary everyday
conversation.

It's not an unlikely claim at all, unless of course I or my relatives
are lying which is, of course, something you'd never dream of
suggesting :-)

Ears
were NEVER pulled/pinched/twisted. There were no shock collars,
scruffing, alpha-rolls...

Can you imagine an old shepherd, whilst out on the barren moors,
feeding teeny-weeny pieces of cheese or sausage to his dogs in order
to get them to sit?


No, but not because of your distorted idea of how dogs are trained. First,
"old shepherds" on the "barren moors" were unlikely to be training their
dogs to sit. IF there was a need for that command, it would have been taught
long before they went out on the "barren moors" to work the sheep.
Second, if they did use food as part of teaching the dog to sit, it
wouldn't have been a matter of "feeding...to GET THEM to sit"- not if they
were training correctly.

Sionnach, you take things *very* seriously - lighten up a little!
Surely the words "teeny-weeny pieces" made it obvious that I was
pulling your leg a little! I'm well aware of what these shepherds need
to do, and it certainly wasn't accomplished through little treats,
shock collars, scruffing, alpha-rolls etc


They praised EVER RIGHT ACTION and reinfored the action with a
command.


Please describe more clearly how one "reinforces an action with a
command".

Simple. If that dog happened to lay down, it would be praised and the
action of laying down would be tied to the word "down".

If the dog sat when it should have layed down, it was STILL
praised and the command 'sit' was reinforced.


Very poor training, and likely to lead to a very confused dog. And if the
dog was asked to down, no command to sit had been given- therefore, it would
be impossible to "reinforce the command sit".

Sionnach, not at all! The shepherd did not wait for the dog to sit,
before giving the command. If he saw that the dog was edging towards a
sit not a stay, he would reinforce that decision with a "sit" command.
This work would be reinforced by what I mentioned earlier, i.e.the dog
naturally lying down would be given the word "down" and be praised. -
simply reinforcing what came naturally to the dog.

No opportunity to praise
was overlooked. If the dog was doing something it shouldn't e.g.
nipping a sheep's hoof, they blew a whistle to distract its attention,
called the dog's name and praised it. This carried on until the dog no
longer nipped... and then it was praised again, but this time without
the whistle. The dog never knew that the whisting came from the
shepherd, as he would always turn his back to the dog the moment he
blew this whistle, and then turn back immediatly to face (and smile)
at the dog.


This is a very nice little fantasy, but doesn't jibe with anything I've
read about how "old shepherds" actually trained their dogs, nor about how
people with working BCs train them today. Among other things, whistling is
used to DIRECT the dogs, not to correct them.
And btw, in this scenario, the whistle is being used *exactly* as the word
"no" would be.


Not at all! These dogs were commanded by voice alone - never a
whistle, which is why the whistle was used in training.

You're wrong by the way - the whistle is *not* being used as the word
"no" would be. The whistle was used a *distraction* and was NEVER
linked to the shepherd. The word "no" is an admonishment and is
inextricably linked to the shepherd. There's a world of difference!

A wee word to the fox - you would almost certainly never speak to
somebody upon meeting them for the first time with such things as:

"An unlikely claim"
"your distorted idea"
"this is a very nice little fantasy"

....so why not try acting in a warmer, friendlier less confrontational
way?

It's much EASIER!

Take care, James
  #8  
Old May 24th 04, 09:24 PM
J1Boss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

James Agnew writes:

It's not an unlikely claim at all, unless of course I or my relatives
are lying which is, of course, something you'd never dream of
suggesting :-)


I think it was suggested that while NO may not be used as a word to the dogs,
it probably IS used in your household. "There's no more butter" or such.

Not at all! These dogs were commanded by voice alone - never a
whistle, which is why the whistle was used in training.


Don't believe for a second that turning away from the dog makes the dog believe
that the noise isn't coming from the human. How silly! Dogs are pretty smart,
particularly BCs! You don't really think they didn't know where a
"distraction" whistle came from, now do you?

...so why not try acting in a warmer, friendlier less confrontational
way?


I think you get a response in line with what you post. Basically, you posted
here with criticism of others and praising the "right" way. Only a lot of is
doesn't hold up. Discussion rather than morality lectures is a lot better.


Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/
http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience

  #9  
Old May 24th 04, 09:24 PM
J1Boss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

James Agnew writes:

It's not an unlikely claim at all, unless of course I or my relatives
are lying which is, of course, something you'd never dream of
suggesting :-)


I think it was suggested that while NO may not be used as a word to the dogs,
it probably IS used in your household. "There's no more butter" or such.

Not at all! These dogs were commanded by voice alone - never a
whistle, which is why the whistle was used in training.


Don't believe for a second that turning away from the dog makes the dog believe
that the noise isn't coming from the human. How silly! Dogs are pretty smart,
particularly BCs! You don't really think they didn't know where a
"distraction" whistle came from, now do you?

...so why not try acting in a warmer, friendlier less confrontational
way?


I think you get a response in line with what you post. Basically, you posted
here with criticism of others and praising the "right" way. Only a lot of is
doesn't hold up. Discussion rather than morality lectures is a lot better.


Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/
http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience

  #10  
Old May 24th 04, 09:24 PM
J1Boss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

James Agnew writes:

It's not an unlikely claim at all, unless of course I or my relatives
are lying which is, of course, something you'd never dream of
suggesting :-)


I think it was suggested that while NO may not be used as a word to the dogs,
it probably IS used in your household. "There's no more butter" or such.

Not at all! These dogs were commanded by voice alone - never a
whistle, which is why the whistle was used in training.


Don't believe for a second that turning away from the dog makes the dog believe
that the noise isn't coming from the human. How silly! Dogs are pretty smart,
particularly BCs! You don't really think they didn't know where a
"distraction" whistle came from, now do you?

...so why not try acting in a warmer, friendlier less confrontational
way?


I think you get a response in line with what you post. Basically, you posted
here with criticism of others and praising the "right" way. Only a lot of is
doesn't hold up. Discussion rather than morality lectures is a lot better.


Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/
http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience

 




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