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  #1  
Old May 30th 04, 12:10 AM
Number 9
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Default in Patterdale Terriers

I believe the cause of the difference is the 'focus' on the "Nuttall" strain
of Fell terrier, which is a vastly "phenotypically" different from the
normal hairy, Lakeland/Border terrier crosses that are common in the Fells.
Americans, in my opinion, favor shorter haired dogs for the Fell Terrier,
and I see the popularity of the Nuttall blood here all the time. At least
here in the Southern region, where most Patterdale owners do own, or
Bulldogs, or Pit Bulls, etc, and they WORK their dogs. I myself do favor
shorter haired dogs for many reasons. My very best hunting Patterdale had a
bit of longer hair in various places. Nuttall seems to be a very small pool
of genes in the Fell developments. My dogs are of heavy Nuttall breeding,
and the black bitch is PURE Nuttall breeding. The Nuttall Dogs have ranged
from Bully headed to a shorter muzzles. I you have access to the book
titled "The Fell Terrier" by Brian Plummer, it will show you clearly of what
I speak. Check page 86, 207, 227, . This showcases the dogs that are
commonly used overseas. My dogs favor the dogs of short coat on page 241,
227, 167, 105. These dogs are a strain purposefully developed by, Brian
Nuttall, Cyril Breay, and a host of others, that you may have heard of.
The variations of Fell terriers is very wide, as far as types. I do prefer
the same type that Brian Nuttal developed as well. After being with dogs
so long, I have realised that I like almost all dogs, but will only breed
what I have need for, and that's tough terriers with the mental and physical
capabilities that suit my needs and the colors I like. If you have any
other Patterdale pictures or advice, post them. I like seeing new dogs.

Thank you




  #2  
Old May 30th 04, 12:10 AM
Number 9
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I believe the cause of the difference is the 'focus' on the "Nuttall" strain
of Fell terrier, which is a vastly "phenotypically" different from the
normal hairy, Lakeland/Border terrier crosses that are common in the Fells.
Americans, in my opinion, favor shorter haired dogs for the Fell Terrier,
and I see the popularity of the Nuttall blood here all the time. At least
here in the Southern region, where most Patterdale owners do own, or
Bulldogs, or Pit Bulls, etc, and they WORK their dogs. I myself do favor
shorter haired dogs for many reasons. My very best hunting Patterdale had a
bit of longer hair in various places. Nuttall seems to be a very small pool
of genes in the Fell developments. My dogs are of heavy Nuttall breeding,
and the black bitch is PURE Nuttall breeding. The Nuttall Dogs have ranged
from Bully headed to a shorter muzzles. I you have access to the book
titled "The Fell Terrier" by Brian Plummer, it will show you clearly of what
I speak. Check page 86, 207, 227, . This showcases the dogs that are
commonly used overseas. My dogs favor the dogs of short coat on page 241,
227, 167, 105. These dogs are a strain purposefully developed by, Brian
Nuttall, Cyril Breay, and a host of others, that you may have heard of.
The variations of Fell terriers is very wide, as far as types. I do prefer
the same type that Brian Nuttal developed as well. After being with dogs
so long, I have realised that I like almost all dogs, but will only breed
what I have need for, and that's tough terriers with the mental and physical
capabilities that suit my needs and the colors I like. If you have any
other Patterdale pictures or advice, post them. I like seeing new dogs.

Thank you




  #3  
Old May 30th 04, 05:47 AM
Jo Wolf
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Posts: n/a
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j..... And then there's the Brit ex-pat in California who is breeding
Pats to Borders (or vice versa), and managed to get them registered by
the Pat club as purebred Pats. I've seen a bunch of photos and after 20
years in Borders, I Cannot tell these dogs from a Border T (and as our
rescue coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID). In appearance.
I have No idea if they have more Pat or more Border T in temperament,
working skills and style, and personality.... I haven't heard from any
Border T folks who have actually seen and had hands on.... and I don't
work my guys (there are only 24 hours in the day and 7 days in the
week.... sigh....) so can't discuss that area in any depth. I just enoy
listening... The only Fell I have seen here in GA was a number of years
ago... coated, and also a Lakie/Border that was a very practical little
dog.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

  #4  
Old May 30th 04, 05:47 AM
Jo Wolf
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Posts: n/a
Default

j..... And then there's the Brit ex-pat in California who is breeding
Pats to Borders (or vice versa), and managed to get them registered by
the Pat club as purebred Pats. I've seen a bunch of photos and after 20
years in Borders, I Cannot tell these dogs from a Border T (and as our
rescue coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID). In appearance.
I have No idea if they have more Pat or more Border T in temperament,
working skills and style, and personality.... I haven't heard from any
Border T folks who have actually seen and had hands on.... and I don't
work my guys (there are only 24 hours in the day and 7 days in the
week.... sigh....) so can't discuss that area in any depth. I just enoy
listening... The only Fell I have seen here in GA was a number of years
ago... coated, and also a Lakie/Border that was a very practical little
dog.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

  #5  
Old May 30th 04, 05:47 AM
Jo Wolf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

j..... And then there's the Brit ex-pat in California who is breeding
Pats to Borders (or vice versa), and managed to get them registered by
the Pat club as purebred Pats. I've seen a bunch of photos and after 20
years in Borders, I Cannot tell these dogs from a Border T (and as our
rescue coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID). In appearance.
I have No idea if they have more Pat or more Border T in temperament,
working skills and style, and personality.... I haven't heard from any
Border T folks who have actually seen and had hands on.... and I don't
work my guys (there are only 24 hours in the day and 7 days in the
week.... sigh....) so can't discuss that area in any depth. I just enoy
listening... The only Fell I have seen here in GA was a number of years
ago... coated, and also a Lakie/Border that was a very practical little
dog.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

  #6  
Old May 30th 04, 07:15 AM
Number 9
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

With so many variances, I do not know on what lines anyone could establish a
"standard", and register the dog, as the field is too broad. The PTCA
offers this standard, which is WIDE OPEN, in my humble opinion...
http://www.ptca.00go.com/whats_new.html

Such an open standard can only result in a judge's favored fancy. I
actually like the somewhat openess of it. It allows progression in the
breed, especially when bred to work. Any fixed type, that will be bred by
different breeders, will absolutely deteriorate the breed. I know from
Primary Data, in other words with my own eyes, of semi-long haired terriers
that will absolutely attack a Pitbull. Of course the dog ended up with a
huge hole in the face. Point being, the Border/...? mixes also bring the
guts from the Border into the line. Nuttall's line are of some small Pit
fighting terrier stock from where is from. These are excellent terriers as
well. I personally prefer short hair, or semi-short hair, and I do respect
the long hairs, because many are great terriers. After studying the books
and pedigrees, it seems that the large majority of these terriers are not
line bred, and that people developed these dogs from whatever fit the bill
at the time. I guess that's the lovely thing about a dog bred to work....
Only it's abitlity to work(physical) the selected quarry, and tenacity
actually make any difference. Of course, people definitly have an affinity
to one look or another, so that naturally comes into play. Many of the
developers used Border T's to strenthen and typify their lines.

Do you still own Borders?
I too am in Georgia.


"Jo Wolf" wrote in message
...
j..... And then there's the Brit ex-pat in California who is breeding
Pats to Borders (or vice versa), and managed to get them registered by
the Pat club as purebred Pats. I've seen a bunch of photos and after 20
years in Borders, I Cannot tell these dogs from a Border T (and as our
rescue coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID). In appearance.
I have No idea if they have more Pat or more Border T in temperament,
working skills and style, and personality.... I haven't heard from any
Border T folks who have actually seen and had hands on.... and I don't
work my guys (there are only 24 hours in the day and 7 days in the
week.... sigh....) so can't discuss that area in any depth. I just enoy
listening... The only Fell I have seen here in GA was a number of years
ago... coated, and also a Lakie/Border that was a very practical little
dog.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia



  #7  
Old May 30th 04, 07:15 AM
Number 9
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

With so many variances, I do not know on what lines anyone could establish a
"standard", and register the dog, as the field is too broad. The PTCA
offers this standard, which is WIDE OPEN, in my humble opinion...
http://www.ptca.00go.com/whats_new.html

Such an open standard can only result in a judge's favored fancy. I
actually like the somewhat openess of it. It allows progression in the
breed, especially when bred to work. Any fixed type, that will be bred by
different breeders, will absolutely deteriorate the breed. I know from
Primary Data, in other words with my own eyes, of semi-long haired terriers
that will absolutely attack a Pitbull. Of course the dog ended up with a
huge hole in the face. Point being, the Border/...? mixes also bring the
guts from the Border into the line. Nuttall's line are of some small Pit
fighting terrier stock from where is from. These are excellent terriers as
well. I personally prefer short hair, or semi-short hair, and I do respect
the long hairs, because many are great terriers. After studying the books
and pedigrees, it seems that the large majority of these terriers are not
line bred, and that people developed these dogs from whatever fit the bill
at the time. I guess that's the lovely thing about a dog bred to work....
Only it's abitlity to work(physical) the selected quarry, and tenacity
actually make any difference. Of course, people definitly have an affinity
to one look or another, so that naturally comes into play. Many of the
developers used Border T's to strenthen and typify their lines.

Do you still own Borders?
I too am in Georgia.


"Jo Wolf" wrote in message
...
j..... And then there's the Brit ex-pat in California who is breeding
Pats to Borders (or vice versa), and managed to get them registered by
the Pat club as purebred Pats. I've seen a bunch of photos and after 20
years in Borders, I Cannot tell these dogs from a Border T (and as our
rescue coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID). In appearance.
I have No idea if they have more Pat or more Border T in temperament,
working skills and style, and personality.... I haven't heard from any
Border T folks who have actually seen and had hands on.... and I don't
work my guys (there are only 24 hours in the day and 7 days in the
week.... sigh....) so can't discuss that area in any depth. I just enoy
listening... The only Fell I have seen here in GA was a number of years
ago... coated, and also a Lakie/Border that was a very practical little
dog.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia



  #8  
Old May 30th 04, 07:15 AM
Number 9
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

With so many variances, I do not know on what lines anyone could establish a
"standard", and register the dog, as the field is too broad. The PTCA
offers this standard, which is WIDE OPEN, in my humble opinion...
http://www.ptca.00go.com/whats_new.html

Such an open standard can only result in a judge's favored fancy. I
actually like the somewhat openess of it. It allows progression in the
breed, especially when bred to work. Any fixed type, that will be bred by
different breeders, will absolutely deteriorate the breed. I know from
Primary Data, in other words with my own eyes, of semi-long haired terriers
that will absolutely attack a Pitbull. Of course the dog ended up with a
huge hole in the face. Point being, the Border/...? mixes also bring the
guts from the Border into the line. Nuttall's line are of some small Pit
fighting terrier stock from where is from. These are excellent terriers as
well. I personally prefer short hair, or semi-short hair, and I do respect
the long hairs, because many are great terriers. After studying the books
and pedigrees, it seems that the large majority of these terriers are not
line bred, and that people developed these dogs from whatever fit the bill
at the time. I guess that's the lovely thing about a dog bred to work....
Only it's abitlity to work(physical) the selected quarry, and tenacity
actually make any difference. Of course, people definitly have an affinity
to one look or another, so that naturally comes into play. Many of the
developers used Border T's to strenthen and typify their lines.

Do you still own Borders?
I too am in Georgia.


"Jo Wolf" wrote in message
...
j..... And then there's the Brit ex-pat in California who is breeding
Pats to Borders (or vice versa), and managed to get them registered by
the Pat club as purebred Pats. I've seen a bunch of photos and after 20
years in Borders, I Cannot tell these dogs from a Border T (and as our
rescue coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID). In appearance.
I have No idea if they have more Pat or more Border T in temperament,
working skills and style, and personality.... I haven't heard from any
Border T folks who have actually seen and had hands on.... and I don't
work my guys (there are only 24 hours in the day and 7 days in the
week.... sigh....) so can't discuss that area in any depth. I just enoy
listening... The only Fell I have seen here in GA was a number of years
ago... coated, and also a Lakie/Border that was a very practical little
dog.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia



  #9  
Old June 2nd 04, 06:31 PM
JohnRDogMgr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jo Wolf writes:

I've seen a bunch of photos and after
20 years in Borders, I Cannot tell these
dogs from a Border T (and as our rescue
coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID).


Oh, we have a Pug X Poodle Mix
in at the shelter that came out
looking like a somewhat "silky"
haired Border Terrier with tightly
curled tail. But face on, it looks
like a BT mix for sure, and I would
never, ever have guessed what
it really is.

  #10  
Old June 2nd 04, 06:31 PM
JohnRDogMgr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jo Wolf writes:

I've seen a bunch of photos and after
20 years in Borders, I Cannot tell these
dogs from a Border T (and as our rescue
coordinator, I see a Lot of photos for breed ID).


Oh, we have a Pug X Poodle Mix
in at the shelter that came out
looking like a somewhat "silky"
haired Border Terrier with tightly
curled tail. But face on, it looks
like a BT mix for sure, and I would
never, ever have guessed what
it really is.

 




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