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Training questions - Border Collie



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 21st 04, 06:10 PM
White Monkey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.
Lynda



I can't help you with most of it (although I suspect you're right about it
just being adolescence), but what worked with Saskia (my 5-month-old Great
Dane) as far as "stay" goes is what we always did with pups as I was growing
up. I had her sit, then said, "Stay!" and backed up a step. If she followed,
I said, "No! Stay!" and backed up a step. She is smart enough that she was
able to connect the "no" with the action on her part, so after a few tries
she hesitated instead of following when I backed up, and I immediately said,
"Good girl!" and went and rubbed her head. She of course didn't yet
precisely know what she'd been doing wrong, but registered that the
hesitation was right. After about five minutes she was staying for five
seconds, and we called it a day. This was repeated with gradually increasing
stays once or twice a day. These days during training sessions she can stay
for 45 seconds or so, including if I leave the room or stand with my back to
her, and also interprets it to mean "don't follow me" when I go upstairs (I
have to work on that, so she knows it means "stay where you are"...)

The key, though, was that she wanted to learn what I was trying to teach
her--she likes to think. So does your dog, but I'm not sure how effective
this method will be right now while he's acting up--teaching Saskia this way
involved her willing participation in the learning process.

Good luck!

--Katrina


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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  #2  
Old July 21st 04, 06:10 PM
White Monkey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.
Lynda



I can't help you with most of it (although I suspect you're right about it
just being adolescence), but what worked with Saskia (my 5-month-old Great
Dane) as far as "stay" goes is what we always did with pups as I was growing
up. I had her sit, then said, "Stay!" and backed up a step. If she followed,
I said, "No! Stay!" and backed up a step. She is smart enough that she was
able to connect the "no" with the action on her part, so after a few tries
she hesitated instead of following when I backed up, and I immediately said,
"Good girl!" and went and rubbed her head. She of course didn't yet
precisely know what she'd been doing wrong, but registered that the
hesitation was right. After about five minutes she was staying for five
seconds, and we called it a day. This was repeated with gradually increasing
stays once or twice a day. These days during training sessions she can stay
for 45 seconds or so, including if I leave the room or stand with my back to
her, and also interprets it to mean "don't follow me" when I go upstairs (I
have to work on that, so she knows it means "stay where you are"...)

The key, though, was that she wanted to learn what I was trying to teach
her--she likes to think. So does your dog, but I'm not sure how effective
this method will be right now while he's acting up--teaching Saskia this way
involved her willing participation in the learning process.

Good luck!

--Katrina


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/04


  #3  
Old July 21st 04, 06:10 PM
White Monkey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.
Lynda



I can't help you with most of it (although I suspect you're right about it
just being adolescence), but what worked with Saskia (my 5-month-old Great
Dane) as far as "stay" goes is what we always did with pups as I was growing
up. I had her sit, then said, "Stay!" and backed up a step. If she followed,
I said, "No! Stay!" and backed up a step. She is smart enough that she was
able to connect the "no" with the action on her part, so after a few tries
she hesitated instead of following when I backed up, and I immediately said,
"Good girl!" and went and rubbed her head. She of course didn't yet
precisely know what she'd been doing wrong, but registered that the
hesitation was right. After about five minutes she was staying for five
seconds, and we called it a day. This was repeated with gradually increasing
stays once or twice a day. These days during training sessions she can stay
for 45 seconds or so, including if I leave the room or stand with my back to
her, and also interprets it to mean "don't follow me" when I go upstairs (I
have to work on that, so she knows it means "stay where you are"...)

The key, though, was that she wanted to learn what I was trying to teach
her--she likes to think. So does your dog, but I'm not sure how effective
this method will be right now while he's acting up--teaching Saskia this way
involved her willing participation in the learning process.

Good luck!

--Katrina


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/04


  #4  
Old July 21st 04, 06:10 PM
White Monkey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.
Lynda



I can't help you with most of it (although I suspect you're right about it
just being adolescence), but what worked with Saskia (my 5-month-old Great
Dane) as far as "stay" goes is what we always did with pups as I was growing
up. I had her sit, then said, "Stay!" and backed up a step. If she followed,
I said, "No! Stay!" and backed up a step. She is smart enough that she was
able to connect the "no" with the action on her part, so after a few tries
she hesitated instead of following when I backed up, and I immediately said,
"Good girl!" and went and rubbed her head. She of course didn't yet
precisely know what she'd been doing wrong, but registered that the
hesitation was right. After about five minutes she was staying for five
seconds, and we called it a day. This was repeated with gradually increasing
stays once or twice a day. These days during training sessions she can stay
for 45 seconds or so, including if I leave the room or stand with my back to
her, and also interprets it to mean "don't follow me" when I go upstairs (I
have to work on that, so she knows it means "stay where you are"...)

The key, though, was that she wanted to learn what I was trying to teach
her--she likes to think. So does your dog, but I'm not sure how effective
this method will be right now while he's acting up--teaching Saskia this way
involved her willing participation in the learning process.

Good luck!

--Katrina


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/04


  #5  
Old July 21st 04, 06:10 PM
White Monkey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.
Lynda



I can't help you with most of it (although I suspect you're right about it
just being adolescence), but what worked with Saskia (my 5-month-old Great
Dane) as far as "stay" goes is what we always did with pups as I was growing
up. I had her sit, then said, "Stay!" and backed up a step. If she followed,
I said, "No! Stay!" and backed up a step. She is smart enough that she was
able to connect the "no" with the action on her part, so after a few tries
she hesitated instead of following when I backed up, and I immediately said,
"Good girl!" and went and rubbed her head. She of course didn't yet
precisely know what she'd been doing wrong, but registered that the
hesitation was right. After about five minutes she was staying for five
seconds, and we called it a day. This was repeated with gradually increasing
stays once or twice a day. These days during training sessions she can stay
for 45 seconds or so, including if I leave the room or stand with my back to
her, and also interprets it to mean "don't follow me" when I go upstairs (I
have to work on that, so she knows it means "stay where you are"...)

The key, though, was that she wanted to learn what I was trying to teach
her--she likes to think. So does your dog, but I'm not sure how effective
this method will be right now while he's acting up--teaching Saskia this way
involved her willing participation in the learning process.

Good luck!

--Katrina


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/04


  #6  
Old July 21st 04, 06:42 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:51:20 GMT Lynda whittled these words:
I assume I've got a fairly normal puppy and I'm well aware the problem
is going to be down to me not knowing how to handle it a but where do
I start? I am gettig so frustrated. How can I make things fun for him
and get him to obey me too?


How much fun are you making it for him? Do YOU view it as fun? If it
isn't fun for you then it is unlikely to be fun for him. What are you
doing when he disobeys? Why does your dog want your praise? I mean what
have you done to associate priase with goood things, fun things,
rewarding things? Do you use any rewards other than food? What classes
have you taken in how to train a dog? which books have you read, and what
methodology are you following?

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.


Sounds like you aren't using a release from the original command. So
"sit" apparently is the action of putting butt to floor instead of taking
and maintaining a sitting position. If insead of teaching posititional
commands as an action try teaching them as a position. Then take care to
always "release" your dog either with a word that indicates no more
commands are comming or with another command. Then you won't need a
"stay" command at all.

Teach your dog that when you say "sit" your dog is to maintain that
position until released or told to do something else. Instead of telling
your dog to "stay" remind your dog that he is supposed to be sitting.

Remember to vary how you are asking your dog to take positional commands.
Down from a sit, sit from a down, stand from a sit, sit from a stand, sit
from a sit! - yes, if the dog moves then it really doesn't understand
"sit"! Remember to vary your position relative to the dog. If the dog
only understands "down" when in front of you or on your left side, the
dog really doesn't understand the command. Teach the commands when you
are standing close, and when you are slightly further away. Teach them
as you walk slowly around the dog. Teach them as you step away.

He's a great dog in other ways, very calm, no chewing, housetrained
etc, I just want him to be obedient. And he just wants to do as he
likes


I think you could get a lot out of a group class in which, among other
things, you might learn how to make learning and obeying fun for your
dog. Border Collies are among those dogs who enjoy a good challenge.
And games that challenge or tease the dog's ability to do or continue to
do something are often fun. But you have to take care to understand how
reward works, and how punishment works. Punishment is often not
something you apply to the dog, but a removal of something the dog wants.
Failure to understand how reward and punishment work, and failure to pay
attention to what actually motivates the dog, often result in training
failure. So that a dog who desires interaction may continue to get it
though disobedient, whereas withdrawing interaction for disobedience may
be a more productive response.

I don't think clicker training is the answer for everything, but it is a
great way to learn to pay attention to what and how you are rewarding.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/
  #7  
Old July 21st 04, 06:42 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:51:20 GMT Lynda whittled these words:
I assume I've got a fairly normal puppy and I'm well aware the problem
is going to be down to me not knowing how to handle it a but where do
I start? I am gettig so frustrated. How can I make things fun for him
and get him to obey me too?


How much fun are you making it for him? Do YOU view it as fun? If it
isn't fun for you then it is unlikely to be fun for him. What are you
doing when he disobeys? Why does your dog want your praise? I mean what
have you done to associate priase with goood things, fun things,
rewarding things? Do you use any rewards other than food? What classes
have you taken in how to train a dog? which books have you read, and what
methodology are you following?

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.


Sounds like you aren't using a release from the original command. So
"sit" apparently is the action of putting butt to floor instead of taking
and maintaining a sitting position. If insead of teaching posititional
commands as an action try teaching them as a position. Then take care to
always "release" your dog either with a word that indicates no more
commands are comming or with another command. Then you won't need a
"stay" command at all.

Teach your dog that when you say "sit" your dog is to maintain that
position until released or told to do something else. Instead of telling
your dog to "stay" remind your dog that he is supposed to be sitting.

Remember to vary how you are asking your dog to take positional commands.
Down from a sit, sit from a down, stand from a sit, sit from a stand, sit
from a sit! - yes, if the dog moves then it really doesn't understand
"sit"! Remember to vary your position relative to the dog. If the dog
only understands "down" when in front of you or on your left side, the
dog really doesn't understand the command. Teach the commands when you
are standing close, and when you are slightly further away. Teach them
as you walk slowly around the dog. Teach them as you step away.

He's a great dog in other ways, very calm, no chewing, housetrained
etc, I just want him to be obedient. And he just wants to do as he
likes


I think you could get a lot out of a group class in which, among other
things, you might learn how to make learning and obeying fun for your
dog. Border Collies are among those dogs who enjoy a good challenge.
And games that challenge or tease the dog's ability to do or continue to
do something are often fun. But you have to take care to understand how
reward works, and how punishment works. Punishment is often not
something you apply to the dog, but a removal of something the dog wants.
Failure to understand how reward and punishment work, and failure to pay
attention to what actually motivates the dog, often result in training
failure. So that a dog who desires interaction may continue to get it
though disobedient, whereas withdrawing interaction for disobedience may
be a more productive response.

I don't think clicker training is the answer for everything, but it is a
great way to learn to pay attention to what and how you are rewarding.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/
  #8  
Old July 21st 04, 06:42 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:51:20 GMT Lynda whittled these words:
I assume I've got a fairly normal puppy and I'm well aware the problem
is going to be down to me not knowing how to handle it a but where do
I start? I am gettig so frustrated. How can I make things fun for him
and get him to obey me too?


How much fun are you making it for him? Do YOU view it as fun? If it
isn't fun for you then it is unlikely to be fun for him. What are you
doing when he disobeys? Why does your dog want your praise? I mean what
have you done to associate priase with goood things, fun things,
rewarding things? Do you use any rewards other than food? What classes
have you taken in how to train a dog? which books have you read, and what
methodology are you following?

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.


Sounds like you aren't using a release from the original command. So
"sit" apparently is the action of putting butt to floor instead of taking
and maintaining a sitting position. If insead of teaching posititional
commands as an action try teaching them as a position. Then take care to
always "release" your dog either with a word that indicates no more
commands are comming or with another command. Then you won't need a
"stay" command at all.

Teach your dog that when you say "sit" your dog is to maintain that
position until released or told to do something else. Instead of telling
your dog to "stay" remind your dog that he is supposed to be sitting.

Remember to vary how you are asking your dog to take positional commands.
Down from a sit, sit from a down, stand from a sit, sit from a stand, sit
from a sit! - yes, if the dog moves then it really doesn't understand
"sit"! Remember to vary your position relative to the dog. If the dog
only understands "down" when in front of you or on your left side, the
dog really doesn't understand the command. Teach the commands when you
are standing close, and when you are slightly further away. Teach them
as you walk slowly around the dog. Teach them as you step away.

He's a great dog in other ways, very calm, no chewing, housetrained
etc, I just want him to be obedient. And he just wants to do as he
likes


I think you could get a lot out of a group class in which, among other
things, you might learn how to make learning and obeying fun for your
dog. Border Collies are among those dogs who enjoy a good challenge.
And games that challenge or tease the dog's ability to do or continue to
do something are often fun. But you have to take care to understand how
reward works, and how punishment works. Punishment is often not
something you apply to the dog, but a removal of something the dog wants.
Failure to understand how reward and punishment work, and failure to pay
attention to what actually motivates the dog, often result in training
failure. So that a dog who desires interaction may continue to get it
though disobedient, whereas withdrawing interaction for disobedience may
be a more productive response.

I don't think clicker training is the answer for everything, but it is a
great way to learn to pay attention to what and how you are rewarding.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/
  #9  
Old July 21st 04, 06:42 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:51:20 GMT Lynda whittled these words:
I assume I've got a fairly normal puppy and I'm well aware the problem
is going to be down to me not knowing how to handle it a but where do
I start? I am gettig so frustrated. How can I make things fun for him
and get him to obey me too?


How much fun are you making it for him? Do YOU view it as fun? If it
isn't fun for you then it is unlikely to be fun for him. What are you
doing when he disobeys? Why does your dog want your praise? I mean what
have you done to associate priase with goood things, fun things,
rewarding things? Do you use any rewards other than food? What classes
have you taken in how to train a dog? which books have you read, and what
methodology are you following?

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.


Sounds like you aren't using a release from the original command. So
"sit" apparently is the action of putting butt to floor instead of taking
and maintaining a sitting position. If insead of teaching posititional
commands as an action try teaching them as a position. Then take care to
always "release" your dog either with a word that indicates no more
commands are comming or with another command. Then you won't need a
"stay" command at all.

Teach your dog that when you say "sit" your dog is to maintain that
position until released or told to do something else. Instead of telling
your dog to "stay" remind your dog that he is supposed to be sitting.

Remember to vary how you are asking your dog to take positional commands.
Down from a sit, sit from a down, stand from a sit, sit from a stand, sit
from a sit! - yes, if the dog moves then it really doesn't understand
"sit"! Remember to vary your position relative to the dog. If the dog
only understands "down" when in front of you or on your left side, the
dog really doesn't understand the command. Teach the commands when you
are standing close, and when you are slightly further away. Teach them
as you walk slowly around the dog. Teach them as you step away.

He's a great dog in other ways, very calm, no chewing, housetrained
etc, I just want him to be obedient. And he just wants to do as he
likes


I think you could get a lot out of a group class in which, among other
things, you might learn how to make learning and obeying fun for your
dog. Border Collies are among those dogs who enjoy a good challenge.
And games that challenge or tease the dog's ability to do or continue to
do something are often fun. But you have to take care to understand how
reward works, and how punishment works. Punishment is often not
something you apply to the dog, but a removal of something the dog wants.
Failure to understand how reward and punishment work, and failure to pay
attention to what actually motivates the dog, often result in training
failure. So that a dog who desires interaction may continue to get it
though disobedient, whereas withdrawing interaction for disobedience may
be a more productive response.

I don't think clicker training is the answer for everything, but it is a
great way to learn to pay attention to what and how you are rewarding.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/
  #10  
Old July 21st 04, 06:42 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:51:20 GMT Lynda whittled these words:
I assume I've got a fairly normal puppy and I'm well aware the problem
is going to be down to me not knowing how to handle it a but where do
I start? I am gettig so frustrated. How can I make things fun for him
and get him to obey me too?


How much fun are you making it for him? Do YOU view it as fun? If it
isn't fun for you then it is unlikely to be fun for him. What are you
doing when he disobeys? Why does your dog want your praise? I mean what
have you done to associate priase with goood things, fun things,
rewarding things? Do you use any rewards other than food? What classes
have you taken in how to train a dog? which books have you read, and what
methodology are you following?

Also, can anyone offer advice please on the stay command. How do I get
him to understand what stay means? It's not like a sit where when or
as he sits I can praise him and he knows what he's done.


Sounds like you aren't using a release from the original command. So
"sit" apparently is the action of putting butt to floor instead of taking
and maintaining a sitting position. If insead of teaching posititional
commands as an action try teaching them as a position. Then take care to
always "release" your dog either with a word that indicates no more
commands are comming or with another command. Then you won't need a
"stay" command at all.

Teach your dog that when you say "sit" your dog is to maintain that
position until released or told to do something else. Instead of telling
your dog to "stay" remind your dog that he is supposed to be sitting.

Remember to vary how you are asking your dog to take positional commands.
Down from a sit, sit from a down, stand from a sit, sit from a stand, sit
from a sit! - yes, if the dog moves then it really doesn't understand
"sit"! Remember to vary your position relative to the dog. If the dog
only understands "down" when in front of you or on your left side, the
dog really doesn't understand the command. Teach the commands when you
are standing close, and when you are slightly further away. Teach them
as you walk slowly around the dog. Teach them as you step away.

He's a great dog in other ways, very calm, no chewing, housetrained
etc, I just want him to be obedient. And he just wants to do as he
likes


I think you could get a lot out of a group class in which, among other
things, you might learn how to make learning and obeying fun for your
dog. Border Collies are among those dogs who enjoy a good challenge.
And games that challenge or tease the dog's ability to do or continue to
do something are often fun. But you have to take care to understand how
reward works, and how punishment works. Punishment is often not
something you apply to the dog, but a removal of something the dog wants.
Failure to understand how reward and punishment work, and failure to pay
attention to what actually motivates the dog, often result in training
failure. So that a dog who desires interaction may continue to get it
though disobedient, whereas withdrawing interaction for disobedience may
be a more productive response.

I don't think clicker training is the answer for everything, but it is a
great way to learn to pay attention to what and how you are rewarding.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/
 




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