"Tess" wrote in message
...
On 03 Aug 2004 04:28:17 GMT, URK-OFF (Leah) wrote:


Hi Nat,
I remember you from rpdbreeds and from Collie-L. I have had collies since
1988 and currently have two, Pablo & Lucy. I think you've gotten some
excellent advice from the other posters. My impression from your posting is
that you are perhaps training too long without rewards, being stingy with
rewards or perhaps working too long at a stretch. Stubborn is not a word I
associate with collies, in general they really want to please you. For
Pablo, it's on the very top of his daily to-do list. However if one corrects
them too often or drill them (repeatedly, and actually kind of pointlessly
just because you can, command a sit, over and over) they'll become reluctant
to work and if they do obey will do it at glacial speed.

I work my adult collies for about 15 minutes sessions and they LOVE to work.
I use hot dogs or some other highly desired treat, cut into tiny bits: about
50-ish (don't really know since I've never counted). My sessions are
up-beat, playful and I'm constantly rewarding. For a puppy such as your,
where you do need to firmly establish the basics, I wouldn't drill but I
would play a proofing game. First I should mention that dogs don't
generalized very well. You teach them to sit in the kitchen but you have to
also teach them and reinforce that sit also means sit out in the backyard,
the driveway, during a walk and so on. As well, he may think that sit means
sit only when you are standing in front of him. So if my puppy is looking at
me like he's never heard "sit" before I help him out. We play silly
proofing games. Me to pup: "Bet you can't sit." Puppy: "Watch this!"
(quickly sits) Me: "Here's a treat! WHAT an amazing puppy!" . We do this in
all sorts of ways, gradually, very gradually, changing and upping the
criteria. If the pup does it wrong (say I ask him to sit in a whispered tone
and he looks at me in total puzzlement), I say: "Whoops, you silly goose!"
and gently show him the right way. If he still doesn't do it, it means that
I've upped the criteria too fast, too soon and I need to go back to some
baby steps.

Another idea I hold firmly to, is that you should give a reward (and it
should be a great reward: treat, play, toy, not just a lame, blah "good
dog") within 20 seconds of the desired action. To be honest I try to give
rewards within 5 seconds. I believe that the quicker the dog gets the reward
the better the association and the keener the dog.



I'm trying to be good, but it's harder than I thought. At the moment
we are doing about 15 mins a day, and the regular 45 minutes at
obedience school. Today in the backyard he pretty much showed that if
he doesn't do it, it's not because he doesn't know it. He sat,
dropped, stayed, and recalled perfectly, but the minute 10 minutes
hit, boredom set in and he became stubborn.

If he did it perfectly why did you keep asking him? If someone says their
collie is bored and stubborn (given the collie nature, highly unlikely) it
often means the owner was drilling the collie and being downright boring.
One thing I've found is if you constantly ask a collie to do something over
and over, they assume they did it wrong (Collie thought: If I did it right
the first time, why is she asking me to do the same thing again?) Collies
really hate to be wrong, their feelings get hurt. Now that doesn't mean you
can't work on all those basics in a 10-15 minute session but it should be
upbeat, silly (like my proofing game) with lots of rewards (be generous!)
and a lot of breaks for silly play and chasing games.



When we go for a walk he pulls most of the time
and won't really heel - though admittedly he has only just been
learning to heel at school.

This is not one most dogs get overnight. :} Takes a lot of practice and
consistency. If you ever give in and let him pull, he won't stop trying.
You
might want to consider fitting him for a Gentle Leader so he will be
unable to
pull while you're training him.

I would not put a gentle leader on a collie. It's overkill for those
sensitive, weenie souls and tends to subdue and depress them.

I know, I have to admit I have given in a few times. In the backyard
he can heel, even off leash *sometimes*, and when we go for a walk
without his friend from next door, he's a bit better.

I'm not sure of your criteria. What I consider "Heeling" is what we do for
obedience competitions: dog on left side and we are both paying extremely
close attention to each other. I never ask my dogs to heel during walks (it
would be exhausting and rather pointless). What I ask of my collies is
polite loose leash behavior: my collies can walk on either side of me, in
front or in back but they must go willingly with me and not pull. IHMO, I
expect pups, even pups who are on the way to becoming well trained dogs, to
pull and act like idiots at the beginning of a walk, especially if they
haven't had any exercise. I, of course, would continue to teach my collie
pup self-control but puppies in general just don't have much and I know
it'll come with gentle guidance on my part and a good dose of maturity &
time.

Also he has this habit when he's impatient, of snapping the air. It
does look kind of cute, but is he trying to be dominant?

Probably not. As long as he's not snapping *at* you, it's probably an
idiosyncrasy. If he's snapping *at* you, you need to address it.

He's snapping *at* us, but it's not a "snap" as in an aggressive snap,
he usually does it when playing or as I said, being impatient. I
*think* but can't recall properly that other collies do it...so could
be just an idiosyncrasy of the breed..


Many of my collies do the "air-snap." IMO, it's not a dominating or
aggressive action, collies often do it when they are very excited. As well
many do it as a way to sass you in a playful way and get you to lighten up
(your collie might be telling you something). My dear old Zeffie
air-snapped when I was putting on my shoes for our walks - she was eager to
go and wanted me to hurry up! We even turned Zeffie's air-snapping behavior
into a trick. First thing you need to know about Zeffie was that she was a
serious workaholic. Anyway, I would put my hands on my hips (a visual cue)
and say: "Zeffie do you want to do some work?" She'd leap to attention,
air-snap and whine (translation: "Alright! Yes I would!"). Me: "Are you
sure?" Zeffie: air-snapping and muttering up a storm (translation: Yes Yes,
Lets get a move on you slowpoke!"). Me: 'Cause we don't have to . . . "
Zeffie: Big WOOF! (translation: "I said Yes, dammit!").

Good luck with your collie boy, give his fuzzy butt a scratch for me.

Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo & Lucy

"Tess" wrote in message
...
On 03 Aug 2004 04:28:17 GMT, URK-OFF (Leah) wrote:


Hi Nat,
I remember you from rpdbreeds and from Collie-L. I have had collies since
1988 and currently have two, Pablo & Lucy. I think you've gotten some
excellent advice from the other posters. My impression from your posting is
that you are perhaps training too long without rewards, being stingy with
rewards or perhaps working too long at a stretch. Stubborn is not a word I
associate with collies, in general they really want to please you. For
Pablo, it's on the very top of his daily to-do list. However if one corrects
them too often or drill them (repeatedly, and actually kind of pointlessly
just because you can, command a sit, over and over) they'll become reluctant
to work and if they do obey will do it at glacial speed.

I work my adult collies for about 15 minutes sessions and they LOVE to work.
I use hot dogs or some other highly desired treat, cut into tiny bits: about
50-ish (don't really know since I've never counted). My sessions are
up-beat, playful and I'm constantly rewarding. For a puppy such as your,
where you do need to firmly establish the basics, I wouldn't drill but I
would play a proofing game. First I should mention that dogs don't
generalized very well. You teach them to sit in the kitchen but you have to
also teach them and reinforce that sit also means sit out in the backyard,
the driveway, during a walk and so on. As well, he may think that sit means
sit only when you are standing in front of him. So if my puppy is looking at
me like he's never heard "sit" before I help him out. We play silly
proofing games. Me to pup: "Bet you can't sit." Puppy: "Watch this!"
(quickly sits) Me: "Here's a treat! WHAT an amazing puppy!" . We do this in
all sorts of ways, gradually, very gradually, changing and upping the
criteria. If the pup does it wrong (say I ask him to sit in a whispered tone
and he looks at me in total puzzlement), I say: "Whoops, you silly goose!"
and gently show him the right way. If he still doesn't do it, it means that
I've upped the criteria too fast, too soon and I need to go back to some
baby steps.

Another idea I hold firmly to, is that you should give a reward (and it
should be a great reward: treat, play, toy, not just a lame, blah "good
dog") within 20 seconds of the desired action. To be honest I try to give
rewards within 5 seconds. I believe that the quicker the dog gets the reward
the better the association and the keener the dog.



I'm trying to be good, but it's harder than I thought. At the moment
we are doing about 15 mins a day, and the regular 45 minutes at
obedience school. Today in the backyard he pretty much showed that if
he doesn't do it, it's not because he doesn't know it. He sat,
dropped, stayed, and recalled perfectly, but the minute 10 minutes
hit, boredom set in and he became stubborn.

If he did it perfectly why did you keep asking him? If someone says their
collie is bored and stubborn (given the collie nature, highly unlikely) it
often means the owner was drilling the collie and being downright boring.
One thing I've found is if you constantly ask a collie to do something over
and over, they assume they did it wrong (Collie thought: If I did it right
the first time, why is she asking me to do the same thing again?) Collies
really hate to be wrong, their feelings get hurt. Now that doesn't mean you
can't work on all those basics in a 10-15 minute session but it should be
upbeat, silly (like my proofing game) with lots of rewards (be generous!)
and a lot of breaks for silly play and chasing games.



When we go for a walk he pulls most of the time
and won't really heel - though admittedly he has only just been
learning to heel at school.

This is not one most dogs get overnight. :} Takes a lot of practice and
consistency. If you ever give in and let him pull, he won't stop trying.
You
might want to consider fitting him for a Gentle Leader so he will be
unable to
pull while you're training him.

I would not put a gentle leader on a collie. It's overkill for those
sensitive, weenie souls and tends to subdue and depress them.

I know, I have to admit I have given in a few times. In the backyard
he can heel, even off leash *sometimes*, and when we go for a walk
without his friend from next door, he's a bit better.

I'm not sure of your criteria. What I consider "Heeling" is what we do for
obedience competitions: dog on left side and we are both paying extremely
close attention to each other. I never ask my dogs to heel during walks (it
would be exhausting and rather pointless). What I ask of my collies is
polite loose leash behavior: my collies can walk on either side of me, in
front or in back but they must go willingly with me and not pull. IHMO, I
expect pups, even pups who are on the way to becoming well trained dogs, to
pull and act like idiots at the beginning of a walk, especially if they
haven't had any exercise. I, of course, would continue to teach my collie
pup self-control but puppies in general just don't have much and I know
it'll come with gentle guidance on my part and a good dose of maturity &
time.

Also he has this habit when he's impatient, of snapping the air. It
does look kind of cute, but is he trying to be dominant?

Probably not. As long as he's not snapping *at* you, it's probably an
idiosyncrasy. If he's snapping *at* you, you need to address it.

He's snapping *at* us, but it's not a "snap" as in an aggressive snap,
he usually does it when playing or as I said, being impatient. I
*think* but can't recall properly that other collies do it...so could
be just an idiosyncrasy of the breed..


Many of my collies do the "air-snap." IMO, it's not a dominating or
aggressive action, collies often do it when they are very excited. As well
many do it as a way to sass you in a playful way and get you to lighten up
(your collie might be telling you something). My dear old Zeffie
air-snapped when I was putting on my shoes for our walks - she was eager to
go and wanted me to hurry up! We even turned Zeffie's air-snapping behavior
into a trick. First thing you need to know about Zeffie was that she was a
serious workaholic. Anyway, I would put my hands on my hips (a visual cue)
and say: "Zeffie do you want to do some work?" She'd leap to attention,
air-snap and whine (translation: "Alright! Yes I would!"). Me: "Are you
sure?" Zeffie: air-snapping and muttering up a storm (translation: Yes Yes,
Lets get a move on you slowpoke!"). Me: 'Cause we don't have to . . . "
Zeffie: Big WOOF! (translation: "I said Yes, dammit!").

Good luck with your collie boy, give his fuzzy butt a scratch for me.

Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo & Lucy

"Tess" wrote in message
...
On 03 Aug 2004 04:28:17 GMT, URK-OFF (Leah) wrote:


Hi Nat,
I remember you from rpdbreeds and from Collie-L. I have had collies since
1988 and currently have two, Pablo & Lucy. I think you've gotten some
excellent advice from the other posters. My impression from your posting is
that you are perhaps training too long without rewards, being stingy with
rewards or perhaps working too long at a stretch. Stubborn is not a word I
associate with collies, in general they really want to please you. For
Pablo, it's on the very top of his daily to-do list. However if one corrects
them too often or drill them (repeatedly, and actually kind of pointlessly
just because you can, command a sit, over and over) they'll become reluctant
to work and if they do obey will do it at glacial speed.

I work my adult collies for about 15 minutes sessions and they LOVE to work.
I use hot dogs or some other highly desired treat, cut into tiny bits: about
50-ish (don't really know since I've never counted). My sessions are
up-beat, playful and I'm constantly rewarding. For a puppy such as your,
where you do need to firmly establish the basics, I wouldn't drill but I
would play a proofing game. First I should mention that dogs don't
generalized very well. You teach them to sit in the kitchen but you have to
also teach them and reinforce that sit also means sit out in the backyard,
the driveway, during a walk and so on. As well, he may think that sit means
sit only when you are standing in front of him. So if my puppy is looking at
me like he's never heard "sit" before I help him out. We play silly
proofing games. Me to pup: "Bet you can't sit." Puppy: "Watch this!"
(quickly sits) Me: "Here's a treat! WHAT an amazing puppy!" . We do this in
all sorts of ways, gradually, very gradually, changing and upping the
criteria. If the pup does it wrong (say I ask him to sit in a whispered tone
and he looks at me in total puzzlement), I say: "Whoops, you silly goose!"
and gently show him the right way. If he still doesn't do it, it means that
I've upped the criteria too fast, too soon and I need to go back to some
baby steps.

Another idea I hold firmly to, is that you should give a reward (and it
should be a great reward: treat, play, toy, not just a lame, blah "good
dog") within 20 seconds of the desired action. To be honest I try to give
rewards within 5 seconds. I believe that the quicker the dog gets the reward
the better the association and the keener the dog.



I'm trying to be good, but it's harder than I thought. At the moment
we are doing about 15 mins a day, and the regular 45 minutes at
obedience school. Today in the backyard he pretty much showed that if
he doesn't do it, it's not because he doesn't know it. He sat,
dropped, stayed, and recalled perfectly, but the minute 10 minutes
hit, boredom set in and he became stubborn.

If he did it perfectly why did you keep asking him? If someone says their
collie is bored and stubborn (given the collie nature, highly unlikely) it
often means the owner was drilling the collie and being downright boring.
One thing I've found is if you constantly ask a collie to do something over
and over, they assume they did it wrong (Collie thought: If I did it right
the first time, why is she asking me to do the same thing again?) Collies
really hate to be wrong, their feelings get hurt. Now that doesn't mean you
can't work on all those basics in a 10-15 minute session but it should be
upbeat, silly (like my proofing game) with lots of rewards (be generous!)
and a lot of breaks for silly play and chasing games.



When we go for a walk he pulls most of the time
and won't really heel - though admittedly he has only just been
learning to heel at school.

This is not one most dogs get overnight. :} Takes a lot of practice and
consistency. If you ever give in and let him pull, he won't stop trying.
You
might want to consider fitting him for a Gentle Leader so he will be
unable to
pull while you're training him.

I would not put a gentle leader on a collie. It's overkill for those
sensitive, weenie souls and tends to subdue and depress them.

I know, I have to admit I have given in a few times. In the backyard
he can heel, even off leash *sometimes*, and when we go for a walk
without his friend from next door, he's a bit better.

I'm not sure of your criteria. What I consider "Heeling" is what we do for
obedience competitions: dog on left side and we are both paying extremely
close attention to each other. I never ask my dogs to heel during walks (it
would be exhausting and rather pointless). What I ask of my collies is
polite loose leash behavior: my collies can walk on either side of me, in
front or in back but they must go willingly with me and not pull. IHMO, I
expect pups, even pups who are on the way to becoming well trained dogs, to
pull and act like idiots at the beginning of a walk, especially if they
haven't had any exercise. I, of course, would continue to teach my collie
pup self-control but puppies in general just don't have much and I know
it'll come with gentle guidance on my part and a good dose of maturity &
time.

Also he has this habit when he's impatient, of snapping the air. It
does look kind of cute, but is he trying to be dominant?

Probably not. As long as he's not snapping *at* you, it's probably an
idiosyncrasy. If he's snapping *at* you, you need to address it.

He's snapping *at* us, but it's not a "snap" as in an aggressive snap,
he usually does it when playing or as I said, being impatient. I
*think* but can't recall properly that other collies do it...so could
be just an idiosyncrasy of the breed..


Many of my collies do the "air-snap." IMO, it's not a dominating or
aggressive action, collies often do it when they are very excited. As well
many do it as a way to sass you in a playful way and get you to lighten up
(your collie might be telling you something). My dear old Zeffie
air-snapped when I was putting on my shoes for our walks - she was eager to
go and wanted me to hurry up! We even turned Zeffie's air-snapping behavior
into a trick. First thing you need to know about Zeffie was that she was a
serious workaholic. Anyway, I would put my hands on my hips (a visual cue)
and say: "Zeffie do you want to do some work?" She'd leap to attention,
air-snap and whine (translation: "Alright! Yes I would!"). Me: "Are you
sure?" Zeffie: air-snapping and muttering up a storm (translation: Yes Yes,
Lets get a move on you slowpoke!"). Me: 'Cause we don't have to . . . "
Zeffie: Big WOOF! (translation: "I said Yes, dammit!").

Good luck with your collie boy, give his fuzzy butt a scratch for me.

Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo & Lucy

"Tess" wrote in message
...
On 03 Aug 2004 04:28:17 GMT, URK-OFF (Leah) wrote:


Hi Nat,
I remember you from rpdbreeds and from Collie-L. I have had collies since
1988 and currently have two, Pablo & Lucy. I think you've gotten some
excellent advice from the other posters. My impression from your posting is
that you are perhaps training too long without rewards, being stingy with
rewards or perhaps working too long at a stretch. Stubborn is not a word I
associate with collies, in general they really want to please you. For
Pablo, it's on the very top of his daily to-do list. However if one corrects
them too often or drill them (repeatedly, and actually kind of pointlessly
just because you can, command a sit, over and over) they'll become reluctant
to work and if they do obey will do it at glacial speed.

I work my adult collies for about 15 minutes sessions and they LOVE to work.
I use hot dogs or some other highly desired treat, cut into tiny bits: about
50-ish (don't really know since I've never counted). My sessions are
up-beat, playful and I'm constantly rewarding. For a puppy such as your,
where you do need to firmly establish the basics, I wouldn't drill but I
would play a proofing game. First I should mention that dogs don't
generalized very well. You teach them to sit in the kitchen but you have to
also teach them and reinforce that sit also means sit out in the backyard,
the driveway, during a walk and so on. As well, he may think that sit means
sit only when you are standing in front of him. So if my puppy is looking at
me like he's never heard "sit" before I help him out. We play silly
proofing games. Me to pup: "Bet you can't sit." Puppy: "Watch this!"
(quickly sits) Me: "Here's a treat! WHAT an amazing puppy!" . We do this in
all sorts of ways, gradually, very gradually, changing and upping the
criteria. If the pup does it wrong (say I ask him to sit in a whispered tone
and he looks at me in total puzzlement), I say: "Whoops, you silly goose!"
and gently show him the right way. If he still doesn't do it, it means that
I've upped the criteria too fast, too soon and I need to go back to some
baby steps.

Another idea I hold firmly to, is that you should give a reward (and it
should be a great reward: treat, play, toy, not just a lame, blah "good
dog") within 20 seconds of the desired action. To be honest I try to give
rewards within 5 seconds. I believe that the quicker the dog gets the reward
the better the association and the keener the dog.



I'm trying to be good, but it's harder than I thought. At the moment
we are doing about 15 mins a day, and the regular 45 minutes at
obedience school. Today in the backyard he pretty much showed that if
he doesn't do it, it's not because he doesn't know it. He sat,
dropped, stayed, and recalled perfectly, but the minute 10 minutes
hit, boredom set in and he became stubborn.

If he did it perfectly why did you keep asking him? If someone says their
collie is bored and stubborn (given the collie nature, highly unlikely) it
often means the owner was drilling the collie and being downright boring.
One thing I've found is if you constantly ask a collie to do something over
and over, they assume they did it wrong (Collie thought: If I did it right
the first time, why is she asking me to do the same thing again?) Collies
really hate to be wrong, their feelings get hurt. Now that doesn't mean you
can't work on all those basics in a 10-15 minute session but it should be
upbeat, silly (like my proofing game) with lots of rewards (be generous!)
and a lot of breaks for silly play and chasing games.



When we go for a walk he pulls most of the time
and won't really heel - though admittedly he has only just been
learning to heel at school.

This is not one most dogs get overnight. :} Takes a lot of practice and
consistency. If you ever give in and let him pull, he won't stop trying.
You
might want to consider fitting him for a Gentle Leader so he will be
unable to
pull while you're training him.

I would not put a gentle leader on a collie. It's overkill for those
sensitive, weenie souls and tends to subdue and depress them.

I know, I have to admit I have given in a few times. In the backyard
he can heel, even off leash *sometimes*, and when we go for a walk
without his friend from next door, he's a bit better.

I'm not sure of your criteria. What I consider "Heeling" is what we do for
obedience competitions: dog on left side and we are both paying extremely
close attention to each other. I never ask my dogs to heel during walks (it
would be exhausting and rather pointless). What I ask of my collies is
polite loose leash behavior: my collies can walk on either side of me, in
front or in back but they must go willingly with me and not pull. IHMO, I
expect pups, even pups who are on the way to becoming well trained dogs, to
pull and act like idiots at the beginning of a walk, especially if they
haven't had any exercise. I, of course, would continue to teach my collie
pup self-control but puppies in general just don't have much and I know
it'll come with gentle guidance on my part and a good dose of maturity &
time.

Also he has this habit when he's impatient, of snapping the air. It
does look kind of cute, but is he trying to be dominant?

Probably not. As long as he's not snapping *at* you, it's probably an
idiosyncrasy. If he's snapping *at* you, you need to address it.

He's snapping *at* us, but it's not a "snap" as in an aggressive snap,
he usually does it when playing or as I said, being impatient. I
*think* but can't recall properly that other collies do it...so could
be just an idiosyncrasy of the breed..


Many of my collies do the "air-snap." IMO, it's not a dominating or
aggressive action, collies often do it when they are very excited. As well
many do it as a way to sass you in a playful way and get you to lighten up
(your collie might be telling you something). My dear old Zeffie
air-snapped when I was putting on my shoes for our walks - she was eager to
go and wanted me to hurry up! We even turned Zeffie's air-snapping behavior
into a trick. First thing you need to know about Zeffie was that she was a
serious workaholic. Anyway, I would put my hands on my hips (a visual cue)
and say: "Zeffie do you want to do some work?" She'd leap to attention,
air-snap and whine (translation: "Alright! Yes I would!"). Me: "Are you
sure?" Zeffie: air-snapping and muttering up a storm (translation: Yes Yes,
Lets get a move on you slowpoke!"). Me: 'Cause we don't have to . . . "
Zeffie: Big WOOF! (translation: "I said Yes, dammit!").

Good luck with your collie boy, give his fuzzy butt a scratch for me.

Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo & Lucy

"Tess" wrote in message
...
On 03 Aug 2004 04:28:17 GMT, URK-OFF (Leah) wrote:


Hi Nat,
I remember you from rpdbreeds and from Collie-L. I have had collies since
1988 and currently have two, Pablo & Lucy. I think you've gotten some
excellent advice from the other posters. My impression from your posting is
that you are perhaps training too long without rewards, being stingy with
rewards or perhaps working too long at a stretch. Stubborn is not a word I
associate with collies, in general they really want to please you. For
Pablo, it's on the very top of his daily to-do list. However if one corrects
them too often or drill them (repeatedly, and actually kind of pointlessly
just because you can, command a sit, over and over) they'll become reluctant
to work and if they do obey will do it at glacial speed.

I work my adult collies for about 15 minutes sessions and they LOVE to work.
I use hot dogs or some other highly desired treat, cut into tiny bits: about
50-ish (don't really know since I've never counted). My sessions are
up-beat, playful and I'm constantly rewarding. For a puppy such as your,
where you do need to firmly establish the basics, I wouldn't drill but I
would play a proofing game. First I should mention that dogs don't
generalized very well. You teach them to sit in the kitchen but you have to
also teach them and reinforce that sit also means sit out in the backyard,
the driveway, during a walk and so on. As well, he may think that sit means
sit only when you are standing in front of him. So if my puppy is looking at
me like he's never heard "sit" before I help him out. We play silly
proofing games. Me to pup: "Bet you can't sit." Puppy: "Watch this!"
(quickly sits) Me: "Here's a treat! WHAT an amazing puppy!" . We do this in
all sorts of ways, gradually, very gradually, changing and upping the
criteria. If the pup does it wrong (say I ask him to sit in a whispered tone
and he looks at me in total puzzlement), I say: "Whoops, you silly goose!"
and gently show him the right way. If he still doesn't do it, it means that
I've upped the criteria too fast, too soon and I need to go back to some
baby steps.

Another idea I hold firmly to, is that you should give a reward (and it
should be a great reward: treat, play, toy, not just a lame, blah "good
dog") within 20 seconds of the desired action. To be honest I try to give
rewards within 5 seconds. I believe that the quicker the dog gets the reward
the better the association and the keener the dog.



I'm trying to be good, but it's harder than I thought. At the moment
we are doing about 15 mins a day, and the regular 45 minutes at
obedience school. Today in the backyard he pretty much showed that if
he doesn't do it, it's not because he doesn't know it. He sat,
dropped, stayed, and recalled perfectly, but the minute 10 minutes
hit, boredom set in and he became stubborn.

If he did it perfectly why did you keep asking him? If someone says their
collie is bored and stubborn (given the collie nature, highly unlikely) it
often means the owner was drilling the collie and being downright boring.
One thing I've found is if you constantly ask a collie to do something over
and over, they assume they did it wrong (Collie thought: If I did it right
the first time, why is she asking me to do the same thing again?) Collies
really hate to be wrong, their feelings get hurt. Now that doesn't mean you
can't work on all those basics in a 10-15 minute session but it should be
upbeat, silly (like my proofing game) with lots of rewards (be generous!)
and a lot of breaks for silly play and chasing games.



When we go for a walk he pulls most of the time
and won't really heel - though admittedly he has only just been
learning to heel at school.

This is not one most dogs get overnight. :} Takes a lot of practice and
consistency. If you ever give in and let him pull, he won't stop trying.
You
might want to consider fitting him for a Gentle Leader so he will be
unable to
pull while you're training him.

I would not put a gentle leader on a collie. It's overkill for those
sensitive, weenie souls and tends to subdue and depress them.

I know, I have to admit I have given in a few times. In the backyard
he can heel, even off leash *sometimes*, and when we go for a walk
without his friend from next door, he's a bit better.

I'm not sure of your criteria. What I consider "Heeling" is what we do for
obedience competitions: dog on left side and we are both paying extremely
close attention to each other. I never ask my dogs to heel during walks (it
would be exhausting and rather pointless). What I ask of my collies is
polite loose leash behavior: my collies can walk on either side of me, in
front or in back but they must go willingly with me and not pull. IHMO, I
expect pups, even pups who are on the way to becoming well trained dogs, to
pull and act like idiots at the beginning of a walk, especially if they
haven't had any exercise. I, of course, would continue to teach my collie
pup self-control but puppies in general just don't have much and I know
it'll come with gentle guidance on my part and a good dose of maturity &
time.

Also he has this habit when he's impatient, of snapping the air. It
does look kind of cute, but is he trying to be dominant?

Probably not. As long as he's not snapping *at* you, it's probably an
idiosyncrasy. If he's snapping *at* you, you need to address it.

He's snapping *at* us, but it's not a "snap" as in an aggressive snap,
he usually does it when playing or as I said, being impatient. I
*think* but can't recall properly that other collies do it...so could
be just an idiosyncrasy of the breed..


Many of my collies do the "air-snap." IMO, it's not a dominating or
aggressive action, collies often do it when they are very excited. As well
many do it as a way to sass you in a playful way and get you to lighten up
(your collie might be telling you something). My dear old Zeffie
air-snapped when I was putting on my shoes for our walks - she was eager to
go and wanted me to hurry up! We even turned Zeffie's air-snapping behavior
into a trick. First thing you need to know about Zeffie was that she was a
serious workaholic. Anyway, I would put my hands on my hips (a visual cue)
and say: "Zeffie do you want to do some work?" She'd leap to attention,
air-snap and whine (translation: "Alright! Yes I would!"). Me: "Are you
sure?" Zeffie: air-snapping and muttering up a storm (translation: Yes Yes,
Lets get a move on you slowpoke!"). Me: 'Cause we don't have to . . . "
Zeffie: Big WOOF! (translation: "I said Yes, dammit!").

Good luck with your collie boy, give his fuzzy butt a scratch for me.

Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo & Lucy

I just want to add that the real purpose of class is to train YOU how to
teach the dog. A pup this age is not going to stay fresh and eager for
the entire hour (or whatever time).

If you go to class with the idea that YOU are going to learn, it will
take some of the pressure off the pup, and you just might get a happy
surprise of a longer period of cooperation.

The real training of the dog/puppy takes place at home. Training
sessions can be as short as one lovely sit. Train in the house, in the
yard, on your walks, in the park... but keep it short. You'll find that
progress will speed up.

I agree with Comp2 (?) that walk-aways are wonderful to teach a dog Not
to pull on the leash. I call them sneak aways, because very soon, you
will be looking for ways to sneak away before the pup notices that you
are moving and takes action to make sure the lead doesn't get tight.
This can be a fun game, in fact. Eventually, the dog can be out at the
end of the lead, and there will still be no pulling....

When pup is able to walk right beside you, reliably, for a fair
distance, with distraction, then and only then is it ready to begin to
heel... which is that perfect position beside you, watching you all of
the time. I use "let's go" as my loose lead command, and "heel" is for
perfection in teamwork.... crossing the street, getting past the child
with an ice cream or hot dog... or those two people arguing.... or for
obedience competition.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

I just want to add that the real purpose of class is to train YOU how to
teach the dog. A pup this age is not going to stay fresh and eager for
the entire hour (or whatever time).

If you go to class with the idea that YOU are going to learn, it will
take some of the pressure off the pup, and you just might get a happy
surprise of a longer period of cooperation.

The real training of the dog/puppy takes place at home. Training
sessions can be as short as one lovely sit. Train in the house, in the
yard, on your walks, in the park... but keep it short. You'll find that
progress will speed up.

I agree with Comp2 (?) that walk-aways are wonderful to teach a dog Not
to pull on the leash. I call them sneak aways, because very soon, you
will be looking for ways to sneak away before the pup notices that you
are moving and takes action to make sure the lead doesn't get tight.
This can be a fun game, in fact. Eventually, the dog can be out at the
end of the lead, and there will still be no pulling....

When pup is able to walk right beside you, reliably, for a fair
distance, with distraction, then and only then is it ready to begin to
heel... which is that perfect position beside you, watching you all of
the time. I use "let's go" as my loose lead command, and "heel" is for
perfection in teamwork.... crossing the street, getting past the child
with an ice cream or hot dog... or those two people arguing.... or for
obedience competition.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

I just want to add that the real purpose of class is to train YOU how to
teach the dog. A pup this age is not going to stay fresh and eager for
the entire hour (or whatever time).

If you go to class with the idea that YOU are going to learn, it will
take some of the pressure off the pup, and you just might get a happy
surprise of a longer period of cooperation.

The real training of the dog/puppy takes place at home. Training
sessions can be as short as one lovely sit. Train in the house, in the
yard, on your walks, in the park... but keep it short. You'll find that
progress will speed up.

I agree with Comp2 (?) that walk-aways are wonderful to teach a dog Not
to pull on the leash. I call them sneak aways, because very soon, you
will be looking for ways to sneak away before the pup notices that you
are moving and takes action to make sure the lead doesn't get tight.
This can be a fun game, in fact. Eventually, the dog can be out at the
end of the lead, and there will still be no pulling....

When pup is able to walk right beside you, reliably, for a fair
distance, with distraction, then and only then is it ready to begin to
heel... which is that perfect position beside you, watching you all of
the time. I use "let's go" as my loose lead command, and "heel" is for
perfection in teamwork.... crossing the street, getting past the child
with an ice cream or hot dog... or those two people arguing.... or for
obedience competition.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

I just want to add that the real purpose of class is to train YOU how to
teach the dog. A pup this age is not going to stay fresh and eager for
the entire hour (or whatever time).

If you go to class with the idea that YOU are going to learn, it will
take some of the pressure off the pup, and you just might get a happy
surprise of a longer period of cooperation.

The real training of the dog/puppy takes place at home. Training
sessions can be as short as one lovely sit. Train in the house, in the
yard, on your walks, in the park... but keep it short. You'll find that
progress will speed up.

I agree with Comp2 (?) that walk-aways are wonderful to teach a dog Not
to pull on the leash. I call them sneak aways, because very soon, you
will be looking for ways to sneak away before the pup notices that you
are moving and takes action to make sure the lead doesn't get tight.
This can be a fun game, in fact. Eventually, the dog can be out at the
end of the lead, and there will still be no pulling....

When pup is able to walk right beside you, reliably, for a fair
distance, with distraction, then and only then is it ready to begin to
heel... which is that perfect position beside you, watching you all of
the time. I use "let's go" as my loose lead command, and "heel" is for
perfection in teamwork.... crossing the street, getting past the child
with an ice cream or hot dog... or those two people arguing.... or for
obedience competition.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

I just want to add that the real purpose of class is to train YOU how to
teach the dog. A pup this age is not going to stay fresh and eager for
the entire hour (or whatever time).

If you go to class with the idea that YOU are going to learn, it will
take some of the pressure off the pup, and you just might get a happy
surprise of a longer period of cooperation.

The real training of the dog/puppy takes place at home. Training
sessions can be as short as one lovely sit. Train in the house, in the
yard, on your walks, in the park... but keep it short. You'll find that
progress will speed up.

I agree with Comp2 (?) that walk-aways are wonderful to teach a dog Not
to pull on the leash. I call them sneak aways, because very soon, you
will be looking for ways to sneak away before the pup notices that you
are moving and takes action to make sure the lead doesn't get tight.
This can be a fun game, in fact. Eventually, the dog can be out at the
end of the lead, and there will still be no pulling....

When pup is able to walk right beside you, reliably, for a fair
distance, with distraction, then and only then is it ready to begin to
heel... which is that perfect position beside you, watching you all of
the time. I use "let's go" as my loose lead command, and "heel" is for
perfection in teamwork.... crossing the street, getting past the child
with an ice cream or hot dog... or those two people arguing.... or for
obedience competition.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia