"Leah" wrote:

My idea. I kept weighing the safety factor against the socialization
factor.... maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I
don't like the odds.

Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.
If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.


My puppy play classes are also broken down by size. Under 20 lbs. and
over 20
lbs. But I normally recommend that Jacks and Boston terriers attend the
large
puppy sessions. It's not a matter of size as much as it is play style.

Yup. As mentioned, I hedged my bets by keeping Rocsi out of puppy class
until she was over 4 months, but even when she was REALLY teeny - barely
over 4 lbs at 3 months - her favorite playmate among my clients was a very
rowdy adolescent Labrador. We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Absolutely. Though usually if a larger puppy isn't downing because of
fear, he
appears shy. Some of the little guys seem completely confident, until you
tell
them to lie down. :}

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

"Leah" wrote:

My idea. I kept weighing the safety factor against the socialization
factor.... maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I
don't like the odds.

Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.
If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.


My puppy play classes are also broken down by size. Under 20 lbs. and
over 20
lbs. But I normally recommend that Jacks and Boston terriers attend the
large
puppy sessions. It's not a matter of size as much as it is play style.

Yup. As mentioned, I hedged my bets by keeping Rocsi out of puppy class
until she was over 4 months, but even when she was REALLY teeny - barely
over 4 lbs at 3 months - her favorite playmate among my clients was a very
rowdy adolescent Labrador. We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Absolutely. Though usually if a larger puppy isn't downing because of
fear, he
appears shy. Some of the little guys seem completely confident, until you
tell
them to lie down. :}

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

"Leah" wrote:

My idea. I kept weighing the safety factor against the socialization
factor.... maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I
don't like the odds.

Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.
If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.


My puppy play classes are also broken down by size. Under 20 lbs. and
over 20
lbs. But I normally recommend that Jacks and Boston terriers attend the
large
puppy sessions. It's not a matter of size as much as it is play style.

Yup. As mentioned, I hedged my bets by keeping Rocsi out of puppy class
until she was over 4 months, but even when she was REALLY teeny - barely
over 4 lbs at 3 months - her favorite playmate among my clients was a very
rowdy adolescent Labrador. We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Absolutely. Though usually if a larger puppy isn't downing because of
fear, he
appears shy. Some of the little guys seem completely confident, until you
tell
them to lie down. :}

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

"Leah" wrote:

My idea. I kept weighing the safety factor against the socialization
factor.... maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I
don't like the odds.

Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.
If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.


My puppy play classes are also broken down by size. Under 20 lbs. and
over 20
lbs. But I normally recommend that Jacks and Boston terriers attend the
large
puppy sessions. It's not a matter of size as much as it is play style.

Yup. As mentioned, I hedged my bets by keeping Rocsi out of puppy class
until she was over 4 months, but even when she was REALLY teeny - barely
over 4 lbs at 3 months - her favorite playmate among my clients was a very
rowdy adolescent Labrador. We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Absolutely. Though usually if a larger puppy isn't downing because of
fear, he
appears shy. Some of the little guys seem completely confident, until you
tell
them to lie down. :}

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

"Leah" wrote:

My idea. I kept weighing the safety factor against the socialization
factor.... maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I
don't like the odds.

Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.
If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.


My puppy play classes are also broken down by size. Under 20 lbs. and
over 20
lbs. But I normally recommend that Jacks and Boston terriers attend the
large
puppy sessions. It's not a matter of size as much as it is play style.

Yup. As mentioned, I hedged my bets by keeping Rocsi out of puppy class
until she was over 4 months, but even when she was REALLY teeny - barely
over 4 lbs at 3 months - her favorite playmate among my clients was a very
rowdy adolescent Labrador. We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Absolutely. Though usually if a larger puppy isn't downing because of
fear, he
appears shy. Some of the little guys seem completely confident, until you
tell
them to lie down. :}

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

"Sionnach" wrote:
Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.

That's the kind of stuff I envisioned. I'm not glad to hear it's happened, but
I'm happy to know I'm not being overly paranoid.

The last time I spoke to the owner of the local clicker training center, a very
knowledgeable woman with 30 years of experience, she told me it was a mistake
to separate the puppies by size. She doesn't do it, and has never had an
injury. Of course, when somebody with 28 more years of experience than I have
says something like that, I pay attention. :} So this one has kind of been
gnawing at me.

What do other experienced trainers here think about puppy classes divided by
size? Pros and cons?

If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.

Sure. I'd suggest promoting it somehow - flyers, mail outs, etc. There may be
a lot of people out there with tiny tots who want to take them to class, but
are afraid of the bigger pups. I can't remember right now because it's too
early and I haven't had enough coffee, but I believe the first class we offered
had 5 sign-ups. That's great for a new class. There's definitely a market for
it.

We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

Oh, that's a riot. :}

When Madigan was in puppy class, she liked to drag a golden retriever around by
the ear. We'd separate them, and the golden would run right back to Maddie and
plop herself on the floor. She *liked* it!

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Hmm. I'm not sure I would do this. By size for safety reasons, yes... but
IMHO this is a bit too much like coddling. There are a lot of valuable
dynamics in a mixed setting.

From what I've observed, rowdy pups don't bother much with timid pups once they
realize they're not going to play with them. And if they do, it's usually a
lot of "ah, come on, let's play!" without being physical. There is the
occasional knot-head I've had to separate from a timid pup because he was too
in the pup's face, but usually if the pup doesn't want to play, they go find
someone who does.

If timid pups are only in with timid pups, then nobody's playing. Which means
the timid pups don't have a chance to see the rowdy guys having fun. A lot of
times, the desire to join in is what finally gets them out from under their
chairs. Chairs come in handy - it's a way to watch and feel somewhat
protected. Sometimes I'll also sit on the floor with a timid guy in my lap,
which often makes him braver (and meanwhile, I can be blocking the other pups
to ensure they don't all converge on him at once).

A scared pup who is continually approached but not harmed is learning that
these guys aren't as dangerous as he thought they were. Some of them learn
that if they say, "Get out of my face!" to the scary dog, he will. And that's
an instant confidence-builder.

Meanwhile, the party animals are learning that not every other dog in the world
wants to be their best friend, and to approach strange dogs more politely.

The more puppies of different temperaments interact, the better communication
skills they're gaining. I've seen some pups develop into what I call
"socializers" and "hall monitors."

Socializers seek out the timid pups and do everything they possibly can to say,
"I'm no threat!" They crawl on their bellies, keep a respectful distance,
offer toys, yip, wave their paws. They know to move slowly around the other
pup, and they know when to back off and lay down. Socializers are the key to
bringing some frightened puppies out of their shells.

Hall monitors don't hang around the shy pups, but they seem to keep an eye on
them. If any bigger or rowdier pup interacts with the shy pup, they're right
there. They have different styles of monitoring. Some will immediately start
playing with the "bully." I had one boxer pup who would calmly stand over the
yorkie every time he thought another dog was playing too rough with her. As
soon as the other dog's attention was elsewhere, Griffin would go back to
playing. Hall monitors are usually very good natured dogs, and I've never seen
one interfere in an aggressive way.

Yes, I'm also looking for a less anthropomorphic explanation as to why these
pups are acting this way. :} Baffling, because I keep seeing these patterns
over and over. I have a Boston terrier in one of my classes who has appointed
himself Hall Monitor.

Boy, did I ramble... but you hit upon my favorite area of dog training. :}
This is precisely why I want to take the course in conducting behavioral
research at the upcoming clicker expo.

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

There are other reasons besides fear to not want to show vulnerability. But
for a jack, the reason is probably because the position is too motionless. :}

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html

"Sionnach" wrote:
Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.

That's the kind of stuff I envisioned. I'm not glad to hear it's happened, but
I'm happy to know I'm not being overly paranoid.

The last time I spoke to the owner of the local clicker training center, a very
knowledgeable woman with 30 years of experience, she told me it was a mistake
to separate the puppies by size. She doesn't do it, and has never had an
injury. Of course, when somebody with 28 more years of experience than I have
says something like that, I pay attention. :} So this one has kind of been
gnawing at me.

What do other experienced trainers here think about puppy classes divided by
size? Pros and cons?

If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.

Sure. I'd suggest promoting it somehow - flyers, mail outs, etc. There may be
a lot of people out there with tiny tots who want to take them to class, but
are afraid of the bigger pups. I can't remember right now because it's too
early and I haven't had enough coffee, but I believe the first class we offered
had 5 sign-ups. That's great for a new class. There's definitely a market for
it.

We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

Oh, that's a riot. :}

When Madigan was in puppy class, she liked to drag a golden retriever around by
the ear. We'd separate them, and the golden would run right back to Maddie and
plop herself on the floor. She *liked* it!

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Hmm. I'm not sure I would do this. By size for safety reasons, yes... but
IMHO this is a bit too much like coddling. There are a lot of valuable
dynamics in a mixed setting.

From what I've observed, rowdy pups don't bother much with timid pups once they
realize they're not going to play with them. And if they do, it's usually a
lot of "ah, come on, let's play!" without being physical. There is the
occasional knot-head I've had to separate from a timid pup because he was too
in the pup's face, but usually if the pup doesn't want to play, they go find
someone who does.

If timid pups are only in with timid pups, then nobody's playing. Which means
the timid pups don't have a chance to see the rowdy guys having fun. A lot of
times, the desire to join in is what finally gets them out from under their
chairs. Chairs come in handy - it's a way to watch and feel somewhat
protected. Sometimes I'll also sit on the floor with a timid guy in my lap,
which often makes him braver (and meanwhile, I can be blocking the other pups
to ensure they don't all converge on him at once).

A scared pup who is continually approached but not harmed is learning that
these guys aren't as dangerous as he thought they were. Some of them learn
that if they say, "Get out of my face!" to the scary dog, he will. And that's
an instant confidence-builder.

Meanwhile, the party animals are learning that not every other dog in the world
wants to be their best friend, and to approach strange dogs more politely.

The more puppies of different temperaments interact, the better communication
skills they're gaining. I've seen some pups develop into what I call
"socializers" and "hall monitors."

Socializers seek out the timid pups and do everything they possibly can to say,
"I'm no threat!" They crawl on their bellies, keep a respectful distance,
offer toys, yip, wave their paws. They know to move slowly around the other
pup, and they know when to back off and lay down. Socializers are the key to
bringing some frightened puppies out of their shells.

Hall monitors don't hang around the shy pups, but they seem to keep an eye on
them. If any bigger or rowdier pup interacts with the shy pup, they're right
there. They have different styles of monitoring. Some will immediately start
playing with the "bully." I had one boxer pup who would calmly stand over the
yorkie every time he thought another dog was playing too rough with her. As
soon as the other dog's attention was elsewhere, Griffin would go back to
playing. Hall monitors are usually very good natured dogs, and I've never seen
one interfere in an aggressive way.

Yes, I'm also looking for a less anthropomorphic explanation as to why these
pups are acting this way. :} Baffling, because I keep seeing these patterns
over and over. I have a Boston terrier in one of my classes who has appointed
himself Hall Monitor.

Boy, did I ramble... but you hit upon my favorite area of dog training. :}
This is precisely why I want to take the course in conducting behavioral
research at the upcoming clicker expo.

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

There are other reasons besides fear to not want to show vulnerability. But
for a jack, the reason is probably because the position is too motionless. :}

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html

"Sionnach" wrote:
Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.

That's the kind of stuff I envisioned. I'm not glad to hear it's happened, but
I'm happy to know I'm not being overly paranoid.

The last time I spoke to the owner of the local clicker training center, a very
knowledgeable woman with 30 years of experience, she told me it was a mistake
to separate the puppies by size. She doesn't do it, and has never had an
injury. Of course, when somebody with 28 more years of experience than I have
says something like that, I pay attention. :} So this one has kind of been
gnawing at me.

What do other experienced trainers here think about puppy classes divided by
size? Pros and cons?

If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.

Sure. I'd suggest promoting it somehow - flyers, mail outs, etc. There may be
a lot of people out there with tiny tots who want to take them to class, but
are afraid of the bigger pups. I can't remember right now because it's too
early and I haven't had enough coffee, but I believe the first class we offered
had 5 sign-ups. That's great for a new class. There's definitely a market for
it.

We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

Oh, that's a riot. :}

When Madigan was in puppy class, she liked to drag a golden retriever around by
the ear. We'd separate them, and the golden would run right back to Maddie and
plop herself on the floor. She *liked* it!

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Hmm. I'm not sure I would do this. By size for safety reasons, yes... but
IMHO this is a bit too much like coddling. There are a lot of valuable
dynamics in a mixed setting.

From what I've observed, rowdy pups don't bother much with timid pups once they
realize they're not going to play with them. And if they do, it's usually a
lot of "ah, come on, let's play!" without being physical. There is the
occasional knot-head I've had to separate from a timid pup because he was too
in the pup's face, but usually if the pup doesn't want to play, they go find
someone who does.

If timid pups are only in with timid pups, then nobody's playing. Which means
the timid pups don't have a chance to see the rowdy guys having fun. A lot of
times, the desire to join in is what finally gets them out from under their
chairs. Chairs come in handy - it's a way to watch and feel somewhat
protected. Sometimes I'll also sit on the floor with a timid guy in my lap,
which often makes him braver (and meanwhile, I can be blocking the other pups
to ensure they don't all converge on him at once).

A scared pup who is continually approached but not harmed is learning that
these guys aren't as dangerous as he thought they were. Some of them learn
that if they say, "Get out of my face!" to the scary dog, he will. And that's
an instant confidence-builder.

Meanwhile, the party animals are learning that not every other dog in the world
wants to be their best friend, and to approach strange dogs more politely.

The more puppies of different temperaments interact, the better communication
skills they're gaining. I've seen some pups develop into what I call
"socializers" and "hall monitors."

Socializers seek out the timid pups and do everything they possibly can to say,
"I'm no threat!" They crawl on their bellies, keep a respectful distance,
offer toys, yip, wave their paws. They know to move slowly around the other
pup, and they know when to back off and lay down. Socializers are the key to
bringing some frightened puppies out of their shells.

Hall monitors don't hang around the shy pups, but they seem to keep an eye on
them. If any bigger or rowdier pup interacts with the shy pup, they're right
there. They have different styles of monitoring. Some will immediately start
playing with the "bully." I had one boxer pup who would calmly stand over the
yorkie every time he thought another dog was playing too rough with her. As
soon as the other dog's attention was elsewhere, Griffin would go back to
playing. Hall monitors are usually very good natured dogs, and I've never seen
one interfere in an aggressive way.

Yes, I'm also looking for a less anthropomorphic explanation as to why these
pups are acting this way. :} Baffling, because I keep seeing these patterns
over and over. I have a Boston terrier in one of my classes who has appointed
himself Hall Monitor.

Boy, did I ramble... but you hit upon my favorite area of dog training. :}
This is precisely why I want to take the course in conducting behavioral
research at the upcoming clicker expo.

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

There are other reasons besides fear to not want to show vulnerability. But
for a jack, the reason is probably because the position is too motionless. :}

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html

"Sionnach" wrote:
Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.

That's the kind of stuff I envisioned. I'm not glad to hear it's happened, but
I'm happy to know I'm not being overly paranoid.

The last time I spoke to the owner of the local clicker training center, a very
knowledgeable woman with 30 years of experience, she told me it was a mistake
to separate the puppies by size. She doesn't do it, and has never had an
injury. Of course, when somebody with 28 more years of experience than I have
says something like that, I pay attention. :} So this one has kind of been
gnawing at me.

What do other experienced trainers here think about puppy classes divided by
size? Pros and cons?

If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.

Sure. I'd suggest promoting it somehow - flyers, mail outs, etc. There may be
a lot of people out there with tiny tots who want to take them to class, but
are afraid of the bigger pups. I can't remember right now because it's too
early and I haven't had enough coffee, but I believe the first class we offered
had 5 sign-ups. That's great for a new class. There's definitely a market for
it.

We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

Oh, that's a riot. :}

When Madigan was in puppy class, she liked to drag a golden retriever around by
the ear. We'd separate them, and the golden would run right back to Maddie and
plop herself on the floor. She *liked* it!

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Hmm. I'm not sure I would do this. By size for safety reasons, yes... but
IMHO this is a bit too much like coddling. There are a lot of valuable
dynamics in a mixed setting.

From what I've observed, rowdy pups don't bother much with timid pups once they
realize they're not going to play with them. And if they do, it's usually a
lot of "ah, come on, let's play!" without being physical. There is the
occasional knot-head I've had to separate from a timid pup because he was too
in the pup's face, but usually if the pup doesn't want to play, they go find
someone who does.

If timid pups are only in with timid pups, then nobody's playing. Which means
the timid pups don't have a chance to see the rowdy guys having fun. A lot of
times, the desire to join in is what finally gets them out from under their
chairs. Chairs come in handy - it's a way to watch and feel somewhat
protected. Sometimes I'll also sit on the floor with a timid guy in my lap,
which often makes him braver (and meanwhile, I can be blocking the other pups
to ensure they don't all converge on him at once).

A scared pup who is continually approached but not harmed is learning that
these guys aren't as dangerous as he thought they were. Some of them learn
that if they say, "Get out of my face!" to the scary dog, he will. And that's
an instant confidence-builder.

Meanwhile, the party animals are learning that not every other dog in the world
wants to be their best friend, and to approach strange dogs more politely.

The more puppies of different temperaments interact, the better communication
skills they're gaining. I've seen some pups develop into what I call
"socializers" and "hall monitors."

Socializers seek out the timid pups and do everything they possibly can to say,
"I'm no threat!" They crawl on their bellies, keep a respectful distance,
offer toys, yip, wave their paws. They know to move slowly around the other
pup, and they know when to back off and lay down. Socializers are the key to
bringing some frightened puppies out of their shells.

Hall monitors don't hang around the shy pups, but they seem to keep an eye on
them. If any bigger or rowdier pup interacts with the shy pup, they're right
there. They have different styles of monitoring. Some will immediately start
playing with the "bully." I had one boxer pup who would calmly stand over the
yorkie every time he thought another dog was playing too rough with her. As
soon as the other dog's attention was elsewhere, Griffin would go back to
playing. Hall monitors are usually very good natured dogs, and I've never seen
one interfere in an aggressive way.

Yes, I'm also looking for a less anthropomorphic explanation as to why these
pups are acting this way. :} Baffling, because I keep seeing these patterns
over and over. I have a Boston terrier in one of my classes who has appointed
himself Hall Monitor.

Boy, did I ramble... but you hit upon my favorite area of dog training. :}
This is precisely why I want to take the course in conducting behavioral
research at the upcoming clicker expo.

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

There are other reasons besides fear to not want to show vulnerability. But
for a jack, the reason is probably because the position is too motionless. :}

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html

"Sionnach" wrote:
Well, I know first-hand of several cases of small dogs being
inadvertently injured by big dogs stepping on or colliding with them during
play - including Rocsi once getting a nasty haematoma because an half-grown
Lab literally ran over her in an attempt to snatch her ball.

That's the kind of stuff I envisioned. I'm not glad to hear it's happened, but
I'm happy to know I'm not being overly paranoid.

The last time I spoke to the owner of the local clicker training center, a very
knowledgeable woman with 30 years of experience, she told me it was a mistake
to separate the puppies by size. She doesn't do it, and has never had an
injury. Of course, when somebody with 28 more years of experience than I have
says something like that, I pay attention. :} So this one has kind of been
gnawing at me.

What do other experienced trainers here think about puppy classes divided by
size? Pros and cons?

If you don't mind, I think I'll mention your idea to our obed. instructor;
most of our Puppy Class clients are large-breed, but it might be a good idea
to keep on the back burner in case several extra-small pups were to show up
at one time.

Sure. I'd suggest promoting it somehow - flyers, mail outs, etc. There may be
a lot of people out there with tiny tots who want to take them to class, but
are afraid of the bigger pups. I can't remember right now because it's too
early and I haven't had enough coffee, but I believe the first class we offered
had 5 sign-ups. That's great for a new class. There's definitely a market for
it.

We did put a stop to puppy-tossing, though -
didn't bother Rocsi to be picked up by her harness and tossed like a tennis
ball, but it unnerved us hoomins.

Oh, that's a riot. :}

When Madigan was in puppy class, she liked to drag a golden retriever around by
the ear. We'd separate them, and the golden would run right back to Maddie and
plop herself on the floor. She *liked* it!

BTW, Terry breaks our classes into three groups by play style/temperament,
not by size - the rowdy, the timid, and the average. She does it on the
first night by having the handlers walk around with the pups on leash,
greeting each other one on one, and watching how the pups react.
The timid pups almost always move into the average group within a couple
of weeks, and by the middle of the 10 weeks the pups can usually be turned
loose & will group on their own.

Hmm. I'm not sure I would do this. By size for safety reasons, yes... but
IMHO this is a bit too much like coddling. There are a lot of valuable
dynamics in a mixed setting.

From what I've observed, rowdy pups don't bother much with timid pups once they
realize they're not going to play with them. And if they do, it's usually a
lot of "ah, come on, let's play!" without being physical. There is the
occasional knot-head I've had to separate from a timid pup because he was too
in the pup's face, but usually if the pup doesn't want to play, they go find
someone who does.

If timid pups are only in with timid pups, then nobody's playing. Which means
the timid pups don't have a chance to see the rowdy guys having fun. A lot of
times, the desire to join in is what finally gets them out from under their
chairs. Chairs come in handy - it's a way to watch and feel somewhat
protected. Sometimes I'll also sit on the floor with a timid guy in my lap,
which often makes him braver (and meanwhile, I can be blocking the other pups
to ensure they don't all converge on him at once).

A scared pup who is continually approached but not harmed is learning that
these guys aren't as dangerous as he thought they were. Some of them learn
that if they say, "Get out of my face!" to the scary dog, he will. And that's
an instant confidence-builder.

Meanwhile, the party animals are learning that not every other dog in the world
wants to be their best friend, and to approach strange dogs more politely.

The more puppies of different temperaments interact, the better communication
skills they're gaining. I've seen some pups develop into what I call
"socializers" and "hall monitors."

Socializers seek out the timid pups and do everything they possibly can to say,
"I'm no threat!" They crawl on their bellies, keep a respectful distance,
offer toys, yip, wave their paws. They know to move slowly around the other
pup, and they know when to back off and lay down. Socializers are the key to
bringing some frightened puppies out of their shells.

Hall monitors don't hang around the shy pups, but they seem to keep an eye on
them. If any bigger or rowdier pup interacts with the shy pup, they're right
there. They have different styles of monitoring. Some will immediately start
playing with the "bully." I had one boxer pup who would calmly stand over the
yorkie every time he thought another dog was playing too rough with her. As
soon as the other dog's attention was elsewhere, Griffin would go back to
playing. Hall monitors are usually very good natured dogs, and I've never seen
one interfere in an aggressive way.

Yes, I'm also looking for a less anthropomorphic explanation as to why these
pups are acting this way. :} Baffling, because I keep seeing these patterns
over and over. I have a Boston terrier in one of my classes who has appointed
himself Hall Monitor.

Boy, did I ramble... but you hit upon my favorite area of dog training. :}
This is precisely why I want to take the course in conducting behavioral
research at the upcoming clicker expo.

Heh. Rocsi was confident even when being asked to lie down, but as you
probably recall, she initially refused to do it.

There are other reasons besides fear to not want to show vulnerability. But
for a jack, the reason is probably because the position is too motionless. :}

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html