Okay, Tara, I found it. I can't find a way to respond to it without copying
and pasting (unless I want to get a google account, which is overkill to
respond to one post). :} So I'll have to use the LCK method of attribution:

Tara: I think you might be missing a good opportunity here Leah. While I agree
that fundamentally it IS o.c., it might be worth your while to mentally
suss out *why* the type that I described (and what Lee went on to
discuss) only takes a minimal amount of reps....sometimes just one.

If you keep getting stuck in explaining that it *is* o.c. (and, like I
said, I think it counts as such as well) you're missing how you can
*use* that information to (possibly) lessen the need for reps. You've
said that it takes reps or the dog will lose a piece of information.
Fair enough. But here you have the opportunity (as do I) to examine how
to incorporate drive techniques into pet training to minimize that need.

Leah: And that's what I'd like more information on - how to incorporate drive
techniques into pet training. I don't often come across a dog who doesn't
respond to either food, praise, or toys, but when I do, I'd certainly like to
have another trick up my sleeve. I don't disagree that using a dog's natural
drives could be powerful tool. But I'd need a whole lot more convincing that
all other reinforcement is inadequate (which I know isn't what you're saying),
or that it's a technique that could be easily translatable to JQP students who
can't even use reward markers correctly.

Tara: Working dog people have been using drive to each for years, so most of
them have not too much need to learn this stuff, but pet obedience has
been stuck in two categories for years- "motivational" (which really
means discomfort based), or the new food based o.c.

Leah: Which is motivational in itself.

Tara: The thing is that many of us tend to give lip service to the fact that
*many* things can be a motivator, but we rarely *use* those things. Food makes
us look
good as trainers, instantly. I can teach a lesson and have a puppy doing
multiple backwards chained events within minutes....but that level of
compliance rarely lasts past the lesson.

Leah: True. I do have some students whose dogs will fairly reliably offer
behaviors on the third trial, but that's not the norm.

Hey, if I jump on this wood pile, I can get out of
the fence! In other words, my behavior (jumping on the wood pile) will bring
a
reward (getting free to run and explore). It's powerful o.c., too, because
the
behavior brings exactly what the dog is focused on getting at the time.

Tara: Sort of. Though again, I think you're spending so much time trying to
prove that it *is* o.c. that you might be missing *why* it only takes
one or two times. Isn't that more important as a trainer to find out?

Leah: Yes. Which is why at one point I mentioned I may like to look at the
Natural Dog Training book. Do you think there's any merit in it? Or are there
better ways to learn?

LCK: If something is important to a dog,
he'll learn how to do it. Once he learns it, he learns it. The trick to
getting him to "unlearn" it, is to give him a more emotionally satisfying
replacement behavior.

Leah: I don't disagree with this. However, I don't see how praise can be
more
emotionally satisfying than chasing the neighbor's cat.

Tara: Well, I have some real problems with his argument. But I will respond to
this one comment of yours. How is bringing the duck back to the hunter
in exchange for some praise more emotionally satisfying than *eating*
the duck?

Leah: I don't know how retrievers are trained, but I'd say that somehow that
praise has to be conditioned to be a primary reinforcer.

Tara: I disagree with Lee saying he hadn't conditioned the praise. When asked
about how he did that (I believe that chicken story as well as how to
teach a dog to do that were in the discussion with suja about Pan) there
was *plenty* of conditioning to the praise as bonding and a reinforcer
and as a distractor. So I disagree with his premise that it alone had a
major impact.

Leah: What about the explanation of classical conditioning? In this case if
the praise is used primarily as a distractor, and the timing is just right, you
could change the dog's pattern of thinking from "dropped food on the floor, eat
it" to "dropped food on the floor, go see daddy." Though I don't see how that
could work in just one or two reps. Or for every dog.

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