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training a dog not to bite at play



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 9th 04, 08:17 AM
panda
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Default training a dog not to bite at play

My friend (not on the net) has a Hungarian Vischla, 1yr old, the loveliest
friendliest girl. Lately though she's developed an alarming trait. When
she's romping with a dog, if the dog so much as nips her, even in play, she
becomes raged and turns into a snarling aggressive beast. I've actually
seen this happen, though didn't at first believe it when my friend told me.
Where would one start with training this out of her? I'm quite experienced
with dogs, but this time haven't a clue. And why would she suddenly start
doing this?
Any pos feedback most welcome,
thanks,

Kate


  #2  
Old November 9th 04, 01:29 PM
J1Boss
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Default

she
becomes raged and turns into a snarling aggressive beast. I've actually
seen this happen, though didn't at first believe it when my friend told me.
Where would one start with training this out of her? I'm quite experienced
with dogs, but this time haven't a clue. And why would she suddenly start
doing this?
Any pos feedback most welcome,
thanks,

Kate


She needs to stop romping with this dog and give the dog a job. A Viszla is a
hunting dog, meant to WORK, and just being a pet isn't enough. I've seen this
type of thing from a lot of sporting dogs, when they aren't actually given a
task. Owner throw ball, dog ignores it or picks it up and drops it again,
owner does the fetching and soon, the dog is bored and starts lunging, jumping,
biting.

When she is out with the dog, the dog should be wearing a long line (not held)
so she has a way to control the dog if the dog goes over the top.



Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/
http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience



  #6  
Old November 10th 04, 01:26 PM
Chris Jung
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"Katie" wrote in message
...

"Leah" wrote in message
...
"panda" wrote:


snip

That's something that needs to be seen and dealt with in person, by a
behaviorist who can read subtle doggie language.


Yes, I'd agree with that.

However, out of curiousity... how many times has it happened? Is there

ever
any blood drawn? How many other dogs has it happened with - i.e., is it

always
the same dog or two, or is it random? Does it happen with dogs of both

sexes?

I think it's happening quite a lot now, according to this friend
(acquaintance really, I see her at the dog park sometimes). No, it can be
any dog, of any sex I believe. The Vischla plays with a lot of dogs, but
suddenly can become raged with one. Blood hasn't been drawn - yet -
because
of the quick intervention of the owners.

Has she ever been bitten by another dog?


Not that I'm aware of. But just as her owner was telling me about it the
other day, and I thought she was exaggerating as we've met this dog many
times and always found her be the happiest, sociable girl, it happened.
She was playing with this harmless little fluff ball, which my own 2 dogs
had romped with, and suddenly there was a dreadful fight, with the Vischla
baring her fangs and monstering it.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing how this can be corrected, as I'm a
dog
walker, and though by no means an expert, like to learn as much as I can.


In some ways, this sounds like my smooth collie, Lucy. She's an adorable
sweet girl but when pissed off at a dog can make an impressive display. From
watching her and the dogs that she gets mad at, I think Lucy has a low
tolerance for social ineptness on the other dogs part, has possessive issues
and frankly she's a bully.

One thing to keep in mind for Lucy and I bet for this Vizsla too is that
even though it looks terrible, the dog IS showing bite inhibition. If Lucy
or this Viszla really wanted to do damage, they could've and would've with
the first flash of fangs. Yes it looks bad but it's sound and fury but no
physical damage. That doesn't excuse it but it's something to keep in mind.

Lucy had 5 or 6 impressive snark attacks to my smooth male Pablo when she
first joined our household this past spring when she was 2. Pablo is not
about to be pushed around by a snotty bitch so he fought back. It sounded
and looked like they were going to kill each other (twirling ball of fur,
teeth and eyeballs) and since smooth collies have thin mobile lips on that
long muzzle, they can pulled them back for a very ferocious show of teeth,
however they never bit even if one had the other down and his/her mouth over
his/her foe's throat. In this situation, I believe Lucy's snarkyness was
based on anxiety over living in a new house and possessiveness (of me and of
choice chewies/toys). I made it clear that there was going to be only one
Alpha Bitch in this house and it's me. When they got into it, I roared,
jumped in the middle and yanked them apart. I scolded both (mildly to Pablo
and a big reaming out to Lucy: "You DO NOT do this **** in MY HOUSE!") and
hustled her into time-out (either in her bedroom crate or on a tether) with
a show of great disgust. Time-out was partly to be punishment and mostly to
be a chance for tempers to cool down (I was majorly pissed at Lucy).

I believed in this situation, appropriate behavior could be learned. So I
devised some charm school lessons for Lucy. I would tether Lucy and let
Pablo do the things that triggered her snark attacks (petted, fetching a
toy, etc). I heavily rewarded good behavior (praise, petting, tasty food,
play sessions) and gave negative reinforcement to bad behavior (being that
she's a collie, my displeasure - frowny face and disgusted tone of voice -
was a big negative). Now this technique if done wrong could've greatly
escalated Lucy's aggressiveness by adding barrier frustration on top of it
so I was damn careful. These sessions were short and sweet (I pet Pablo and
heavily rewarded Lucy for laying calmly on the floor and that was the entire
session). We did dozens of five second sessions. IMHO, a long session
(minutes instead of seconds) would've just built tension and backfired big
time. I didn't separate them but I closely watched when they were close.
When Lucy would focus with her body tense, I would call her to me (we worked
a lot on her recalls) and have her focus her attention on me (heavily using
positive and negative reinforcement again). Their last fight was in the
first of June, then we had about two months of cool polite relations between
the two and then they slowly became friends. Now they are best buddies.
Major yippee on my part.

Lucy meets a lot of dogs and 99% of the time, she's fine. Except for Pablo,
I've seen her snarky behavior is only toward one small, submissive, very
timid bitch, a beagle named Sydney owned by my tenant. I've noticed that she
likes to bully Syd (stand over them with up body language) and when this
little beagle tells her to back off she goes into a big snark attack. Even
though there is no physical damage, I believe it's bad for little Syd's
psyche. Since I know Lucy and can read her body language, I make sure to put
a stop to it before she can get started. If she gets that stiff, upright,
cocky look and starts to posture over Syd, I call her to me. We work a lot
on her recall and on attention. When I ask, Lucy must look at me and not the
Syd. What's interesting is that recently I've noticed that she'll focus on
Syd but instead of escalating, she'll catch herself, hesitate, then run over
to me or Pablo and want - more like demand - some intense play. I guess it's
hard work to be a good girl and she needs big rewards and a release for her
tension. When inside, I keep them separated, I have a crate in the
livingroom next to the computer and gates for the kitchen If Syd is up here
for a visit, either she or Lucy are in the crate or gated in the kitchen. I
heavily reward relaxed behavior on Lucy's part when Syd is around. Lucy is
much better but poor Syd doesn't quite buy it and IMHO her fearful behavior
triggers the worst in Lucy. According to Syd's owner, Lucy isn't the only
dog who is easily annoyed by Syd, she's been the victim of a number of snark
attacks in the past. Maybe so, but in my house there's no bullying allowed.

Chris and her smoothies
Pablo and beta bitch, Lucy


  #7  
Old November 10th 04, 04:39 PM
ceb
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Default

"Chris Jung" wrote in
:

What's interesting is that recently I've noticed that she'll focus on
Syd but instead of escalating, she'll catch herself, hesitate, then
run over to me or Pablo and want - more like demand - some intense
play. I guess it's hard work to be a good girl and she needs big
rewards and a release for her tension.


Sublimation! It's great when dogs do this -- it's an impressive display of
maturity, I think. When I brought a new cat into the house, I also brought
Zoe a new stuffed toy, a squeaky penguin. I was always so pleased to see
her turn her attention from the cat to ripping the stuffing out of the
penguin.

--Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
  #8  
Old November 10th 04, 04:48 PM
KWBrown
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Default

"Chris Jung" wrote in news:8Onkd.201$zk7.52
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

In some ways, this sounds like my smooth collie, Lucy.


Chris, I just wanted to say "thanks" for this detailed discussion of how
you dealt with Lucy's snarkies. I don't have anyone in my dogworld with
snarky issues right now, but your writing is vivid and will stay with me
for future reference.

Are you a pro writer by any chance? I'm drafting what I hope could become
a series of dog columns for my local paper and could use a reality check
from someone who edits well.

--
Kate
and Storm the FCR
  #9  
Old November 10th 04, 05:32 PM
Leah
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Default

ceb wrote:

What's interesting is that recently I've noticed that she'll focus on
Syd but instead of escalating, she'll catch herself, hesitate, then
run over to me or Pablo and want - more like demand - some intense
play. I guess it's hard work to be a good girl and she needs big
rewards and a release for her tension.


Sublimation! It's great when dogs do this -- it's an impressive display of
maturity, I think. When I brought a new cat into the house, I also brought
Zoe a new stuffed toy, a squeaky penguin. I was always so pleased to see
her turn her attention from the cat to ripping the stuffing out of the
penguin.


MacKenzie occasionally loses her temper with Madigan, and at one time I was
afraid that I may have to permanently separate them. It was relatively easy to
work with, since the only thing they fought over was ME - i.e., it didn't
happen unless MacKenzie thought that Madigan was usurping her mom-time.

She only tried it with Murphy once, and I wonder if the behavior wasn't
repeated because DaMoof (my calm, cool alpha) didn't back down like Maddie
always does. She didn't attack, but she let Kenzie know plain and simple that
she was ready, willing and able.

Her snark-attacks are very rare now, though, and can normally be interrupted by
me casually saying her name. She switches her focus from Maddie to me, with an
"oops" look on her face. If she doesn't and continues to snark, she knows the
drill - mommy takes her collar and walks her into the bathroom for a 10 second
time out.

What's funny about it is that as soon as I grab her collar, she calmly walks
into the bathroom with me. No struggling, no resistance. Another "oops"
moment, I guess.

However, working with two spatting dogs who live in the same house is a
different issue than working with a dog who attacks other dogs in a park. Too
many variables. That's why I recommend a one-on-one behaviorist for this one
instead of trying to give advice online.

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://www.re-vita.net/dfrntdrums


  #10  
Old November 10th 04, 08:31 PM
Chris Jung
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Chris Jung" wrote in message
...

"Katie" wrote in message
...

"Leah" wrote in message
...
"panda" wrote:

snip

That's something that needs to be seen and dealt with in person, by a
behaviorist who can read subtle doggie language.


Yes, I'd agree with that.

However, out of curiousity... how many times has it happened? Is there

ever
any blood drawn? How many other dogs has it happened with - i.e., is it

always
the same dog or two, or is it random? Does it happen with dogs of both

sexes?

I think it's happening quite a lot now, according to this friend
(acquaintance really, I see her at the dog park sometimes). No, it can
be
any dog, of any sex I believe. The Vischla plays with a lot of dogs,
but
suddenly can become raged with one. Blood hasn't been drawn - yet -
because
of the quick intervention of the owners.

Has she ever been bitten by another dog?


Not that I'm aware of. But just as her owner was telling me about it the
other day, and I thought she was exaggerating as we've met this dog many
times and always found her be the happiest, sociable girl, it happened.
She was playing with this harmless little fluff ball, which my own 2 dogs
had romped with, and suddenly there was a dreadful fight, with the
Vischla
baring her fangs and monstering it.


This situation makes me think of Lucy's first snark attack on Syd. First
thing to know about Syd is that she's a very high strung, fearful dog. She's
not well socialized and tends to yelp if startled. Well, I was letting them
all out our back door foyer, a small space for the four of us (one smallish
human, one big collie, one little collie, and one wee beagle.). The opening
door bumped Syd's paw, she yelped and Lucy sprung into an attack.

Before this incident I had noticed that Syd's nervousness was affecting my
dogs. Pablo, because I like to think he's a good guy, put out all the
calming signals he could (he always kept his face adverted from Syd, moved
slowly and gave her wide berth). Or it could be that he decided that she was
a little weirdo and made an pointed effort to ignore her. Lucy OTOH was
really puzzled about Syd - she knew this little dog was highly agitated but
didn't understand why so decided to keep a really close eye on her. So when
Syd yelped, Lucy, being a reactive gal, jumped on her. It could've been a
predatory reaction or it could've been annoyance. Within a second, Lucy had
pinned Syd and Syd was screaming and frantically thrashing which just drove
Lucy on. I had the impression of something I saw in an old movie: a guy
slapping a screaming woman and yelling at her to calm down. In the movies
screaming at and slapping a panicked woman works wonders to help her regain
her composure but I don't think it works in real life. Or at least it
doesn't in my house. I roared onto Lucy and pretty much threw her outside
(at 42 lbs, she's quite toss-able) and checked on Syd who was unhurt.

Unfortunately now Syd was really scared which frankly made Lucy even more
tense and focused on her. Scared dogs get even more frightened when they are
being shadowed and stared at. Which meant that the threshold for the next
snark attack (a week later) was lowered. What I really kick myself about is
that about the time I figured out the downward spiral going on between Lucy
and Syd, poor quaking Syd had been attacked by Lucy a total of three times.
Since Syd's owner works incredible long hours (sometimes as long as 16
hours!), I do think it's good for her to come up for visits but I've put in
safeguards to prevent any more snarky behavior from Lucy. In the house,
either Lucy or Syd are in the wire crate next to my computer. Outside, they
get along fine and even go on sniffing expeditions together in the hunt for
the somewhat evil ground squirrels.

Back to the OP's post. I suspect that this Vizsla was, like Lucy, in a
highly excited state and it's quite possible that the smaller dog
yelped/squeaked which brought on the attack. If I owned this Viszla, I would
keep this her out of crowded situations and keep a watch her body language.
If she starts to get overly excited and tense, I would teach her a recall
and to focus her attention me.

Anyway, I gotta get back to work.
Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo & Lucy


 




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