I have two two year old cross bred bitches (they are sisters) and I have had
them since they were 16 weeks old. They attended puppy classes and both have
been pretty good at being obediant. Every day I take them for an hours walk
across country and let them off the lead when we cross a number of fields. We
meet other people and other dogs and they have always been friendly with both.
We occasionally comes across deer and they have previously shown a curiosity
about them followed by a token chase of which they have no hope of getting
anywhere near them and quickly return when I call them back. However the other
day they saw a lone deer (this is unusual I have only seen them previously in
small herds) and they gave chase, as the deer accelerated away and they turned
to come back to me, the deer suddenly turned at 90 degrees and ran into a fence
( normally the deer jump the fences with ease). This seemed to spur the dogs on
and they started to chase the deer again and just as I expected the deer to
leave them behind it turned and ran into the fence again. This time the dogs
caught it and brought it down. By this time they were three hundred yards away
and it took me some time to get to them. They refused to leave the deer alone
ignoring commands they had previously obeyed (Leave and bad dog) it was just
like I was not there at all. I eventually managed to get them off of the deer
and back on their leads. The deer although traumatised and there was some blood
eventually ran off and I have seen it since as I am still walking the dogs but
they are staying on the lead.

I have a number of questions that I hope can be answered by any of you dog
lovers who use this newsgroup.

Do I own what could be described as dangerous dogs?
If so what can be done or is it too late now?
Were they just being dogs?
Did they sense that there was something wrong with the deer?

Thanks in advance for any replies.




Mike B

In article ,
MBeale3426 wrote:
Do I own what could be described as dangerous dogs?
If so what can be done or is it too late now?
Were they just being dogs?
Did they sense that there was something wrong with the deer?

What you described is pretty normal behavior for some dogs.
I doubt very much that they perceived anything wrong with
the deer (other than it was alive and uneaten). The problem
you face is that they've learned that attacking deer is fun
and rewarding. I'd spend some serious time drilling recalls
and make sure that they get a HUGE reward when they come
back to you, but frankly I've got extremely predatory dogs,
myself, and they stay on-lead when we're outside the fence.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"MBeale3426" wrote in message
...
I have two two year old cross bred bitches (they are sisters) and I have
had
them since they were 16 weeks old. They attended puppy classes and both
have
been pretty good at being obediant. Every day I take them for an hours
walk
across country and let them off the lead when we cross a number of fields.
We
meet other people and other dogs and they have always been friendly with
both.
We occasionally comes across deer and they have previously shown a
curiosity
about them followed by a token chase of which they have no hope of getting
anywhere near them and quickly return when I call them back. However the
other
day they saw a lone deer (this is unusual I have only seen them previously
in
small herds) and they gave chase, as the deer accelerated away and they
turned
to come back to me, the deer suddenly turned at 90 degrees and ran into a
fence
( normally the deer jump the fences with ease). This seemed to spur the
dogs on
and they started to chase the deer again and just as I expected the deer
to
leave them behind it turned and ran into the fence again. This time the
dogs
caught it and brought it down. By this time they were three hundred yards
away
and it took me some time to get to them. They refused to leave the deer
alone
ignoring commands they had previously obeyed (Leave and bad dog) it was
just
like I was not there at all. I eventually managed to get them off of the
deer
and back on their leads. The deer although traumatised and there was some
blood
eventually ran off and I have seen it since as I am still walking the dogs
but
they are staying on the lead.

I have a number of questions that I hope can be answered by any of you dog
lovers who use this newsgroup.

Do I own what could be described as dangerous dogs?

No, but depending on where you live it may be illegal to allow your dogs to
chase deer (by "allow" they mean no matter how your dog escapes you, you
"let" it) and it may be legal for others to shoot your dog. For example,
here in Michigan it is legal for anyone to shoot a dog that is harassing
livestock or wildlife so long as the dog is off it's owners' property and
it's legal where you are to shoot a gun.

If so what can be done or is it too late now?

As Melinda said--proof your recalls.

Were they just being dogs?

Yes.

Did they sense that there was something wrong with the deer?

Probably not, besides that it was a pretty dumb deer, though from my
experience deer aren't really all that bright in the first place.



--
Emily Carroll
http://www.fluttervale.com/kennel - Fluttervale Labradors
http://www.fluttervale.com/biography - Canine Biography

(MBeale3426) wrote:
Do I own what could be described as dangerous dogs?

LOL! Sorry for laughing, but this is cute. :} No, what you own are... dogs.
Animals with prey drive. Yours have shown admirable restraint. For many dogs,
the sight of a lone deer that close - especially one so cooperative as to help
bring itself down - would trigger a kill-fest. Your two barely winged it.

Now that they've had the excitement of the chase, they may not call off deers
as easily as they once did.

If so what can be done or is it too late now?

You could retrain them on recalls using progressively more tempting
distractions. Post back if you want suggestions for exercises.

Were they just being dogs?

Yep. :}

Did they sense that there was something wrong with the deer?

Probably. I think it's what put them over the top, but I'm not that
experienced with prey drivey behaviors. Perhaps someone here with huntin'
dawgs can confirm.

---
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
It's A Dog's Life
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Get Healthy, Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://www.re-vita.net/dfrntdrums

"MBeale3426" wrote in message
...
However the other
day they saw a lone deer (this is unusual I have only seen them previously
in
small herds) and they gave chase

I don't know where you are but odds are extremely good that the deer in your
area are in the rut. If so, the scent is stronger than usual. DH had a
beagle (30!) years ago who they finally broke of running deer EXCEPT during
the breeding season. Then he just could not pass up a buck in the rut.
They just smelled too good.

And it's possible that if it were a doe that your dogs chased and cornered
(which I'm guessing since you didn't mention antlers) that she was separated
from her usual group because she's in heat. And if she had just been
recently bred - or even recently chased by a buck whether or not he was
successful at breeding her - she was tired and somewhat disoriented. Maybe
in an unfamiliar area.

But as everyone else has said, the answer is to keep them on leash anytime
they may run into deer. You might even have some success - after a period
of retraining - keeping just one on a leash while the other is freer.
Having had such success with their first deer attack - which was probably
pretty exciting for you also - they are going to be eager to repeat it.

No, it doesn't mean that you have dangerous dogs - except to deer. Sounds
like they had a lot of fun being dogs. But as you know, it's just not
acceptable behavior for them to repeat. So they may have lost their
off-leash privileges. You could get long leads for them - not as much fun
for the dogs and trickier for you but it reinforces control. And I know
some people (Sionnach?) who have used electronic collars to train a recall
in spite of temptations.

~~Judy

Emily Carroll/Fluttervale wrote:
No, but depending on where you live it may be illegal to allow your dogs to
chase deer (by "allow" they mean no matter how your dog escapes you, you
"let" it) and it may be legal for others to shoot your dog.

Yep. Even if the deer escapes, it may die later from shock and
exhaustion. Chasing deer is normal dog behavior but in this
day & age it's a BIG no-no.

If so what can be done or is it too late now?

As Melinda said--proof your recalls.

Or keep them on leash.

Probably not, besides that it was a pretty dumb deer

I do disagree with the "dumb deer" assessment. I know that
the deer in my neighborhood are quite tame. There's a regular
deer path through my yard that passes not ten feet from where
I sit now. The does and fawns tend to stick together, but
the bucks often come through by themselves.

And all the deer are quite tolerant of my dog Patience. But
she's a fairly special case - she's a highly trained and
experienced herding dog who knows quite well that she's not
to go after any hoofed things unless she's instructed to do
so. It did take a couple of years of regular training in the
presence of livestock before she became this trustworthy.
Even so, I would NOT trust her alone with the deer; I'm
always close by. Yet since these deer have spent a lot of
time around a non-threatening dog I would expect that they
have lost some of their innate fear of canines. That's not
dumb; it's simple classical conditioning.

As another poster (Leah?) already pointed out, since the OP's
dogs have now gotten away with chasing deer it's much more
likely to occur again - a highly rewarding behavior is very
often repeated even if negative consequences are added later.

Also, pack behaviors arise when more than one dog is present;
I'm sure that the fact that there were two dogs involved
contributed to this incident. Because of that, I liked the
suggestion of keeping one dog on leash - the other is far
less likely to break away and go have fun on her own. I'd
still do a lot of proofing on recalls before letting even
one of them off-lead, and also use verbal commands to keep
the loose dog close - the closer a dog is to you than to
the deer, the more likely it is that her attraction to you
will overcome the lure of the deer.

Good luck,

Dianne

(Melinda Shore) wrote in message ...
In article ,
MBeale3426 wrote:
Do I own what could be described as dangerous dogs?
If so what can be done or is it too late now?
Were they just being dogs?
Did they sense that there was something wrong with the deer?

What you described is pretty normal behavior for some dogs.
I doubt very much that they perceived anything wrong with
the deer (other than it was alive and uneaten). The problem
you face is that they've learned that attacking deer is fun
and rewarding. I'd spend some serious time drilling recalls
and make sure that they get a HUGE reward when they come
back to you, but frankly I've got extremely predatory dogs,
myself, and they stay on-lead when we're outside the fence.


In many/most states, dogs that chase game animals such as deer may be
killed by game wardens. Please be very very careful about this.

EmilyS

"diannes" wrote in message
...
Emily Carroll/Fluttervale wrote:

Probably not, besides that it was a pretty dumb deer

I do disagree with the "dumb deer" assessment. I know that
the deer in my neighborhood are quite tame. There's a regular
deer path through my yard that passes not ten feet from where
I sit now. The does and fawns tend to stick together, but
the bucks often come through by themselves.

I was referring to the part where it ran into the same fence twice

--
Emily Carroll
http://www.fluttervale.com/kennel - Fluttervale Labradors
http://www.fluttervale.com/biography - Canine Biography

I have a 60lb 1.5 year old German Shepherd mix and she is freakishly fast. She killed a deer while hiking off leash last month. I bought an e-collar and attempted to use it to discourage chasing by giving her stim when she begins to run. Albeit I am not experienced with e-collars the highest stim did not deter her and she ran down and killed another deer. I highly recommend never alowing your dogs off leash around deer. Once they are rewarded with a chase and kill it becomes increasing difficult to prevent. In my oppinion chasing and killing is the ultimate reward and anything we can do is less desireable. Needless to say my dog will never go off leash again unless within a fenced area. I don't want her gorged to death by a buck or shot by a hunter.