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#1
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Dog Whisperer
Just wondering if anyone else here has watched this show. It comes on NGC (National Geographic Channel). The one I just watched featured a female PitBull who is dog aggressive (surprise!) and gets rehabilitated. Heck, he brings this dog into his 'Dog Psychology Center', and lets her be with dozens of other dogs almost right away. Eventually, he manages to get lots of submissive behavior out of her around other dogs. If the rollerblading bit is true, he has at least half a dozen Pits/AmStaffs living together in harmony. Suja |
#2
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Suja wrote:
Just wondering if anyone else here has watched this show. It comes on NGC (National Geographic Channel). The one I just watched featured a female PitBull who is dog aggressive (surprise!) and gets rehabilitated. Heck, he brings this dog into his 'Dog Psychology Center', and lets her be with dozens of other dogs almost right away. Eventually, he manages to get lots of submissive behavior out of her around other dogs. If the rollerblading bit is true, he has at least half a dozen Pits/AmStaffs living together in harmony. Kewl! I see that it comes on 3x daily. Thanks! Here's the link to the schedule: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ch.../20041208.html FurPaw -- I don't mind coming to work, but that eight hour wait to go home is a bitch. To reply, unleash the dog |
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"Suja" wrote in message news:sGMtd.151$0r.25@lakeread03... Just wondering if anyone else here has watched this show. It comes on NGC (National Geographic Channel). The one I just watched featured a female PitBull who is dog aggressive (surprise!) and gets rehabilitated. Heck, he brings this dog into his 'Dog Psychology Center', and lets her be with dozens of other dogs almost right away. Eventually, he manages to get lots of submissive behavior out of her around other dogs. If the rollerblading bit is true, he has at least half a dozen Pits/AmStaffs living together in harmony. A friend told me about this show, and I just caught a few episodes on Tivo. I'm not sure what to think. Some of his techniques seemed OK, others I didn't care for, and his philosophies are a bit odd. The pit bull episode was a bit disconcerting. He had the dog around other dogs, but clearly there were issues that he didn't want the camera to catch - the springer which was attacked when the family came to visit, for example. That springer seemed to have a habit of butting in when he interacted with the pit bull, and I saw him push it away at one point. My guess is that he knew the pit would attack the springer when the family arrived (he "warned" them that their presence might cause an attack) because it had happened in the past. If he can work with people and teach them things that help them keep their dogs, then I suppose it is better than the alternative. I'm not convinced that he's 100% successful, though. Christy |
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Christy wrote:
A friend told me about this show, and I just caught a few episodes on Tivo. I'm not sure what to think. Some of his techniques seemed OK, others I didn't care for, and his philosophies are a bit odd. Well, it's all dominance based, as far as I could tell. He seems to believe in all the alpha roll nonsense too. The pit bull episode was a bit disconcerting. He had the dog around other dogs, but clearly there were issues that he didn't want the camera to catch Did you catch the part where his dog pack was milling around to get their food, and picked out a dog to be fed first because he was the "most patient"? As it was starting to eat, a GSD poked his nose near him, and got a raised lip out of the dog that was eating. Didn't he say something about how any level of aggression is absolutely not tolerated? If he can work with people and teach them things that help them keep their dogs, then I suppose it is better than the alternative. I'm not convinced that he's 100% successful, though. I am worried that some moron is going to try this with their dog. That was the most disconcerting thing. This guy said that what a dog aggressive dog needs is intense socialization, so let me take it to the dog park, 'cause he'll get socialized. I was surprised that the dog did absolutely nothing when first introduced to the other dogs. I have known several who would've completely lost it at that point. Suja |
#5
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Hi, everyone...
I've been watching this show very carefully from the beginning. I think Cesar is an amazing handler, and he's exceptionally talented at working with people, and believe me, he sees some real dumb-asses. He's always pleasant and calm with them, never loses his temper. I don't know how he does it. Before I comment on this particular episode, I'll share some of my observations. First of all, most episodes cover two cases in a half-hour show. With about 7 minutes of commercial time, that's 23 minutes to cover many hours of work and consultation. You're only seeing a very tiny snippet of what he does. You really have to watch many episodes to start to get an idea of his whole rehabilitation program. Where I find him inaccurate is in some of the things he says about particular breeds, like saying that "pit bulls are the only breed of dog that can pull 30 times their body weight." Well, some have pulled 58 times their body weight in competitions. Other breeds have pulled god knows how much. So, that remark isn't exactly factual, but the point is there - these are really, really strong dogs, and pound for pound, they have more raw strength than most other breeds, which is exactly why they excel at weight pulling. Now, for my comments on some of your (collective) comments: Well, it's all dominance based, as far as I could tell. If you watch his show, he has several mantras that he keeps repeating. One is "calm, assertive leadership" on the part of the owner, "rules, boundaries and limitations" for the dog. He stresses that leadership and dominance have nothing to do with cruelty, anger or aggression toward the dog. Almost universally, his clients have never set limitations on their dogs' behavior. One lady had a dog that flipped out every time she made toast and the toaster popped up. He asked, "So what do you do when she does this?" Silly grin from owner... then, "We don't make toast." Another one has a neurotically fearful dog. He asks "What do you do when she shows fear?" Answer: "We pet her and tell her it's okay." Which leads to another one of his mantras: whatever state of mind the dog is in when you give affection, you nurture that state of mind. Give affection only when the dog is being calm and submissive (not fearful, aggressive, excited, etc.). Most of the cases he deals with aren't nearly as extreme as Emily, the dog-aggressive pit bull. Most are easily controled with a leash and a few voice corrections, and sometimes a little desensitizing toward objects, people or things that set them off. This seems simplistic to those of us who know dogs or train them, but these principles DO allude most owners, unfortunately. He has a nice way of working with the dogs and the owners, getting the owners to understand that it is not kind to a dog to fail to set limits on its behavior, and showing them how to do that in a calm, assertive and humane manner. He seems to believe in all the alpha roll nonsense too. I have seen every episode and have never EVER seen him alpha roll a dog! Putting a dog in a down is not an alpha roll, and anyone mistaking that for an alpha roll may want to do a bit more reading on that subject. A true alpha roll is not something that you do for two minutes - with a dominant aggressive dog, it may take hours and involves much more than just making the dog lay down. It is designed to make the dog fear for his life, and I've never seen him do that to a dog. The pit bull episode was a bit disconcerting. He had the dog around other dogs, but clearly there were issues that he didn't want the camera to catch If you read the credits of the show, you'll see that he's neither the director, producer or editor. He probably has very little control over what the camera points at. Emily was at his facility for 6 weeks. The show only had about 6 minutes to dedicate to this entire period. So, they focused on him and how he handled the dog rather than much of what was going on around him. Maybe things would be different if it were a 1- or 2-hour documentary. FWIW, I didn't find that episode disconcerting at all. I found it fascinating. Anyone who's dealt with dog-aggressive pit bulls knows that once dog-aggression rears its ugly head, most all hope of that dog ever being social with other dogs is supposed to be lost. What he was able to accomplish with that dog flies in the face of everything I've been told about the breed, and to me, is nothing short of a miracle. And he did this all without the usual arsenal of the "hard dog" trainer - prong collars, e-collars, extreme obedience training, etc. Did you catch the part where his dog pack was milling around to get their food, and picked out a dog to be fed first because he was the "most patient"? As it was starting to eat, a GSD poked his nose near him, and got a raised lip out of the dog that was eating. Didn't he say something about how any level of aggression is absolutely not tolerated? In other shows I've seen him say that he *does* allow warnings. And he did correct the dog in his usual way.. he says "Shhh!", snaps his fingers and points at the dog. You have to watch that clip very carefully to notice it. As I recall, he's just off-camera for this, but I did hear the SHHH and the finger snap just before the cut. I don't see anything wrong with feeding the dog that is "most patient." What he watches for is the dog that shows the most consistent "calm and submissive" posture and he rewards that with food. I do something similar with my four. They all have their own places to sit or down and stay while I put their food down. If they all hold the stay, they all get released to eat at the same time. If one breaks or whines or creeps forward, I send them back farther and release them later than the others. Big deal. The ones that finish first are not allowed to harass the others that are still eating. This discipline routine establishes me as the leader and sets limits on their interactions to avoid fights. With 2 ACDs, a pit bull and a basset hound, I consider it critical to establish this sort of dominance over them because a fight between any two could become lethal in a big hurry. the springer which was attacked when the family came to visit, for example. That springer seemed to have a habit of butting in when he interacted with the pit bull, and I saw him push it away at one point. My guess is that he knew the pit would attack the springer when the family arrived (he "warned" them that their presence might cause an attack) because it had happened in the past. This is common. Any time a trainer takes over a dog and schools him successfully, the dog will behave for the trainer. Hand the dog back to the owner and chances are that the dog will revert to their old behavior because that is how they behaved in the past with that owner. Sometimes something the owner does triggers the behavior, or inadvertantly rewards the behavior, or sometimes the owner simply lets their dog get away with the behavior. Cesar is especially good at reading the owners' behavior to see what's triggering the dog - an inappropriate leash correction, leash tension, body posture, etc. In the case of aggressive dogs, the owners usually tense up in anticipation of an aggressive display, which can trigger the dog to act aggressively. Those owners in that episode were all tied up in knots, and Emily had a history of being aggressive in their presence, so it was easy for him to predict that Emily would have an outburst. If he can work with people and teach them things that help them keep their dogs, then I suppose it is better than the alternative. I'm not convinced that he's 100% successful, though. Like any trainer or behaviorist, he's only going to be as successful as his clients are determined to follow through. When he works with a dog, he does the initial intervention. In most cases, I've seen him tell the clients that it will take x-number of months to truly extinguish such-and-such behavior. His program always includes daily walks of 30 minutes to an hour. I suspect many of them lose their enthusiasm for that before the time period is up. The cornerstones of his program for dogs a Exercise, leadership and affection. "You can't expect a dog to be calm/submissive unless you get rid of some of his excess energy first." "The walk establishes your relationship with your dog." His walks aren't just a walk, where the dog is allowed to sniff around and do what he wants - they're what he calls "power walks" where you control the dog's behavior. Collar high up on the neck to control the nose ("control the nose and you control the dog."). No sniffing, eliminating or exploring allowed in the first 5 to 15 minutes of the walk, then you allow that on your terms. The dog is not allowed to walk in front of the owner. If the dog is high-energy and/or the owner's time is limited, the dog wears a weighted backpack to consume more energy. Some dogs get a treadmill to work off even more. I am worried that some moron is going to try this with their dog. Hence the warnings at the beginning of the show and after every single commercial break. This guy said that what a dog aggressive dog needs is intense socialization, so let me take it to the dog park, 'cause he'll get socialized. You missed his dissertation on dog parks then. He is adamantly against taking a dog, especially an "unbalanced" one (his word), to a dog park, because most of the dogs there are "unbalanced" as well. That's why he took Emily to his own pack for socialization. I was surprised that the dog did absolutely nothing when first introduced to the other dogs. I have known several who would've completely lost it at that point. I guess he knows what he's doing. But he did do quite a bit of desensitization with the dog before he introduced her to the pack, and he has a certain way of directing his dogs and entering the pen that controls their behavior toward the newcomer. He had already established his dominance over Emily, as well, but we don't know how many hours or even days he worked with her prior to the introduction. That show is not one that you can judge based on a single episode. I've also found that in watching the repeats, I always pick up on something I missed before, even on the third or fourth viewing. I'd just love to do an apprenticeship under that guy to really see what his entire program is. There are a lot of little subtleties that are almost totally lost in the show, such as how to give a proper collar correction. From what I can gather, it's always upward or up and inward, toward the owner - never back, which he says is a cue for the dog to pull. But I'm not sure of that because I've only seen tiny snippets of that. Before making a judgment on the show, watch a number of episodes. Some people see him working with a dog with a particular collar and say, "oh, he puts pinch collars on the dogs." Someone else will see him working with a 25-cent nylon slip lead and say "Oh, he works with those cheapie shelter leads." From what I've seen, he usually works with whatever the dog and owner are accustomed to, unless the dog has negative connotations associated with the walk, and he'll switch equipment. He will not walk a dog on a harness. I haven't seen him work with a head halter, either. If the owner doesn't have an appropriate collar and lead, he'll take any old lead, run the clip end through the handle to make a slip collar and walk the dog on that. Bottom line - he doesn't make a big deal about this collar or that or this lead or that. I kinda like that. Phew... I'll shut up now. Tracy |
#6
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Tracy Doyle wrote in news:41B88F05.BEB5B818
@unspam.rag-time.com: Give affection only when the dog is being calm and submissive (not fearful, aggressive, excited, etc.). I like to give affection when the dog is being ridiculously silly. --Catherine & Zozo the clown |
#7
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"Tracy Doyle" wrote in message ... Hi, everyone... I've been watching this show very carefully from the beginnin g.Ithink Cesar is an amazing handler, and he's exceptionally talented at working with people, and believe me, he sees some real dumb-asses. He's always pleasant and calm with them, never loses his temper. I don't know how he does it. I agree he does well with people. Though I don't agree with most of his mumbo-jumbo on the way dogs think, he does communicate well with people and many of his thoughts on THEIR behavior and thinking are spot-on. .. You're only seeing a very tiny snippet of what he does. You really have to watch many episodes to start to get an idea of his whole rehabilitation program. I've seen half a dozen episodes, and most of them were basically the same thing - take your dog on walks, put weights on its back, hold its head up, magic solution to your dog spinning/barking/aggression problems. I did see one where he dealt with a shih tzu that wouldn't walk, and thought he handled that one very well. If you watch his show, he has several mantras that he keeps repeating. One is "calm, assertive leadership" on the part of the owner, "rules, boundaries and limitations" for the dog. He stresses that leadership and dominance have nothing to do with cruelty, anger or aggression toward the dog. Almost universally, his clients have never set limitations on their dogs' behavior. That part works for me. Which leads to another one of his mantras: whatever state of mind the dog is in when you give affection, you nurture that state of mind. Give affection only when the dog is being calm and submissive (not fearful, aggressive, excited, etc.). That's where it starts to go wonky for me. But I don't support the "all dogs must be submissive to me" philosophy. FWIW, I didn't find that episode disconcerting at all. I found it fascinating. Anyone who's dealt with dog-aggressive pit bulls knows that once dog-aggression rears its ugly head, most all hope of that dog ever being social with other dogs is supposed to be lost. What he was able to accomplish with that dog flies in the face of everything I've been told about the breed, and to me, is nothing short of a miracle. And he did this all without the usual arsenal of the "hard dog" trainer - prong collars, e-collars, extreme obedience training, etc. I just have a very hard time accepting that that dog will be safe around other dogs when Cesar is not actively working it. It nailed that springer pretty quick when the visitors arrived, and was just as eager to go after the dobie when it got home after 6 weeks of "rehabilitation." Christy |
#8
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Tracy Doyle wrote:
I've been watching this show very carefully from the beginning. I think Cesar is an amazing handler, and he's exceptionally talented at working with people, and believe me, he sees some real dumb-asses. This much is true. There are times (lots of times) when I would've responded with 'What the hell were you thinking?' If you watch his show, he has several mantras that he keeps repeating. One is "calm, assertive leadership" on the part of the owner, "rules, boundaries and limitations" for the dog. While I agree with what he says, I think that he has a strange definition of leadership. I for one don't think that it is a good thing for a dog to be on the ground, tail tucked between its legs, which I saw *several* times with Emily. There is a difference between submissive and scared, and I think that what I saw crossed that line. Perhaps I am a little sensitive about that topic, having had to work like mad to get my dog to get over being overly timid. I have seen every episode and have never EVER seen him alpha roll a dog! Putting a dog in a down is not an alpha roll, and anyone mistaking that for an alpha roll may want to do a bit more reading on that subject. The simplest definition of an alpha roll I have seen advises the person to roll the dog onto its back, and pin it by the throat until it submits (stops moving around and does not make eye contact). Just like NILIF (the original version is *extreme* to say the least), there are variants on this. I don't see anything wrong with feeding the dog that is "most patient." What he watches for is the dog that shows the most consistent "calm and submissive" posture and he rewards that with food. I have no problem with this, although I don't think there is anything inherently wrong or bad about animals that get excited at the prospect of food. As long as it stays that way, and don't extend to attempting to take food without permission, what's the big deal? FWIW, you and I follow similar routines during feeding time. For me, it's because it affords me the opportunity to practice previously trained behaviors. The dog is not allowed to walk in front of the owner. This bit, I don't get. Not everything a dog does is based on power play, and IME, where it walks in relation to the owner has little or nothing to do with anything. My extremely timid dog walks well ahead of everyone else. A friend's extremely submissive dog (she submissive pees) does exactly the same thing. I have no problems with that as long as they're walking on a loose leash. My much less timid dog walks behind me, and often right next to me, but that's because she associates a lot more value with being next to me than being up ahead, exploring. Hence the warnings at the beginning of the show and after every single commercial break. My point is that there needs to be more emphasis on 'we've been working on this x many hours for y many days to get these results'. They seem to make him out to be some sort of miracle worker who gets overnight results. because most of the dogs there are "unbalanced" as well. Boy, if that's not stupid.... Before making a judgment on the show, watch a number of episodes. I have, and my opinion is that he is sometimes much rougher on the dogs than needs to be. He may be a wonderful trainer who can get farther than most of us, but IMO, the emphasis of the show should be on how much work it is to rehab the dog, and how such problems can be prevented in the first place. But then, they can't call it 'The Dog Whisperer', can they? Suja |
#9
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"Christy" wrote in news:sn2ud.1517$Z%1.810
@trnddc03: how the dog is anxious or nervous because he doesn't have a leader I thought that this was kind of commonly accepted these days -- that the pack needs a leader, and if you don't take on that role, the dog will, and that that can cause anxiety in the dog. Not to mention in the person that the dog is trying to lead! --Catherine & Zoe the cockerchow |
#10
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"ceb" wrote in message ... I thought that this was kind of commonly accepted these days -- that the pack needs a leader, and if you don't take on that role, the dog will, and that that can cause anxiety in the dog. Not to mention in the person that the dog is trying to lead! While I do believe dogs can be anxious, I don't believe that "anxiety" is a cause of most dog problems, which seemed to be a running theme in the shows I saw (and in jar-jar's posts, coincidentally...) I think lack of training and socialization causes problems, and that can be a result of an owner not taking the role of leader. I just don't believe that a dog is sitting around all anxious and worried because they don't have a pack leader; I just don't think dogs think that way. They are more likely to do as you said, and take the role themselves. Christy |
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