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  #1  
Old December 9th 04, 01:12 AM
Suja
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Default Dog Whisperer


Just wondering if anyone else here has watched this show. It comes on
NGC (National Geographic Channel). The one I just watched featured a
female PitBull who is dog aggressive (surprise!) and gets rehabilitated.
Heck, he brings this dog into his 'Dog Psychology Center', and lets
her be with dozens of other dogs almost right away. Eventually, he
manages to get lots of submissive behavior out of her around other dogs.
If the rollerblading bit is true, he has at least half a dozen
Pits/AmStaffs living together in harmony.

Suja
  #2  
Old December 9th 04, 03:30 AM
FurPaw
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Suja wrote:


Just wondering if anyone else here has watched this show. It comes on
NGC (National Geographic Channel). The one I just watched featured a
female PitBull who is dog aggressive (surprise!) and gets rehabilitated.
Heck, he brings this dog into his 'Dog Psychology Center', and lets her
be with dozens of other dogs almost right away. Eventually, he manages
to get lots of submissive behavior out of her around other dogs. If the
rollerblading bit is true, he has at least half a dozen Pits/AmStaffs
living together in harmony.


Kewl! I see that it comes on 3x daily. Thanks! Here's the link to the
schedule:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ch.../20041208.html

FurPaw


--

I don't mind coming to work, but that eight hour wait to go home is a bitch.

To reply, unleash the dog
  #3  
Old December 9th 04, 08:29 AM
Christy
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"Suja" wrote in message
news:sGMtd.151$0r.25@lakeread03...

Just wondering if anyone else here has watched this show. It comes on
NGC (National Geographic Channel). The one I just watched featured a
female PitBull who is dog aggressive (surprise!) and gets rehabilitated.
Heck, he brings this dog into his 'Dog Psychology Center', and lets
her be with dozens of other dogs almost right away. Eventually, he
manages to get lots of submissive behavior out of her around other dogs.
If the rollerblading bit is true, he has at least half a dozen
Pits/AmStaffs living together in harmony.


A friend told me about this show, and I just caught a few episodes on Tivo.
I'm not sure what to think. Some of his techniques seemed OK, others I
didn't care for, and his philosophies are a bit odd.
The pit bull episode was a bit disconcerting. He had the dog around other
dogs, but clearly there were issues that he didn't want the camera to
catch - the springer which was attacked when the family came to visit, for
example. That springer seemed to have a habit of butting in when he
interacted with the pit bull, and I saw him push it away at one point. My
guess is that he knew the pit would attack the springer when the family
arrived (he "warned" them that their presence might cause an attack) because
it had happened in the past.
If he can work with people and teach them things that help them keep their
dogs, then I suppose it is better than the alternative. I'm not convinced
that he's 100% successful, though.

Christy


  #4  
Old December 9th 04, 03:54 PM
Suja
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Christy wrote:

A friend told me about this show, and I just caught a few episodes on Tivo.
I'm not sure what to think. Some of his techniques seemed OK, others I
didn't care for, and his philosophies are a bit odd.


Well, it's all dominance based, as far as I could tell. He seems to
believe in all the alpha roll nonsense too.

The pit bull episode was a bit disconcerting. He had the dog around other
dogs, but clearly there were issues that he didn't want the camera to
catch


Did you catch the part where his dog pack was milling around to get
their food, and picked out a dog to be fed first because he was the
"most patient"? As it was starting to eat, a GSD poked his nose near
him, and got a raised lip out of the dog that was eating. Didn't he say
something about how any level of aggression is absolutely not tolerated?


If he can work with people and teach them things that help them keep their
dogs, then I suppose it is better than the alternative. I'm not convinced
that he's 100% successful, though.


I am worried that some moron is going to try this with their dog. That
was the most disconcerting thing. This guy said that what a dog
aggressive dog needs is intense socialization, so let me take it to the
dog park, 'cause he'll get socialized. I was surprised that the dog did
absolutely nothing when first introduced to the other dogs. I have
known several who would've completely lost it at that point.

Suja
  #5  
Old December 9th 04, 06:44 PM
Tracy Doyle
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Hi, everyone...

I've been watching this show very carefully from the beginning. I think
Cesar is an amazing handler, and he's exceptionally talented at working
with people, and believe me, he sees some real dumb-asses. He's always
pleasant and calm with them, never loses his temper. I don't know how he
does it.

Before I comment on this particular episode, I'll share some of my
observations. First of all, most episodes cover two cases in a half-hour
show. With about 7 minutes of commercial time, that's 23 minutes to
cover many hours of work and consultation. You're only seeing a very
tiny snippet of what he does. You really have to watch many episodes to
start to get an idea of his whole rehabilitation program.

Where I find him inaccurate is in some of the things he says about
particular breeds, like saying that "pit bulls are the only breed of dog
that can pull 30 times their body weight." Well, some have pulled 58
times their body weight in competitions. Other breeds have pulled god
knows how much. So, that remark isn't exactly factual, but the point is
there - these are really, really strong dogs, and pound for pound, they
have more raw strength than most other breeds, which is exactly why they
excel at weight pulling.

Now, for my comments on some of your (collective) comments:

Well, it's all dominance based, as far as I could tell.


If you watch his show, he has several mantras that he keeps repeating.
One is "calm, assertive leadership" on the part of the owner, "rules,
boundaries and limitations" for the dog. He stresses that leadership and
dominance have nothing to do with cruelty, anger or aggression toward
the dog. Almost universally, his clients have never set limitations on
their dogs' behavior. One lady had a dog that flipped out every time she
made toast and the toaster popped up. He asked, "So what do you do when
she does this?" Silly grin from owner... then, "We don't make toast."
Another one has a neurotically fearful dog. He asks "What do you do when
she shows fear?" Answer: "We pet her and tell her it's okay."

Which leads to another one of his mantras: whatever state of mind the
dog is in when you give affection, you nurture that state of mind. Give
affection only when the dog is being calm and submissive (not fearful,
aggressive, excited, etc.).

Most of the cases he deals with aren't nearly as extreme as Emily, the
dog-aggressive pit bull. Most are easily controled with a leash and a
few voice corrections, and sometimes a little desensitizing toward
objects, people or things that set them off. This seems simplistic to
those of us who know dogs or train them, but these principles DO allude
most owners, unfortunately. He has a nice way of working with the dogs
and the owners, getting the owners to understand that it is not kind to
a dog to fail to set limits on its behavior, and showing them how to do
that in a calm, assertive and humane manner.

He seems to
believe in all the alpha roll nonsense too.


I have seen every episode and have never EVER seen him alpha roll a dog!
Putting a dog in a down is not an alpha roll, and anyone mistaking that
for an alpha roll may want to do a bit more reading on that subject. A
true alpha roll is not something that you do for two minutes - with a
dominant aggressive dog, it may take hours and involves much more than
just making the dog lay down. It is designed to make the dog fear for
his life, and I've never seen him do that to a dog.

The pit bull episode was a bit disconcerting. He had the dog around other
dogs, but clearly there were issues that he didn't want the camera to
catch


If you read the credits of the show, you'll see that he's neither the
director, producer or editor. He probably has very little control over
what the camera points at. Emily was at his facility for 6 weeks. The
show only had about 6 minutes to dedicate to this entire period. So,
they focused on him and how he handled the dog rather than much of what
was going on around him. Maybe things would be different if it were a 1-
or 2-hour documentary.

FWIW, I didn't find that episode disconcerting at all. I found it
fascinating. Anyone who's dealt with dog-aggressive pit bulls knows that
once dog-aggression rears its ugly head, most all hope of that dog ever
being social with other dogs is supposed to be lost. What he was able to
accomplish with that dog flies in the face of everything I've been told
about the breed, and to me, is nothing short of a miracle. And he did
this all without the usual arsenal of the "hard dog" trainer - prong
collars, e-collars, extreme obedience training, etc.

Did you catch the part where his dog pack was milling around to get
their food, and picked out a dog to be fed first because he was the
"most patient"? As it was starting to eat, a GSD poked his nose near
him, and got a raised lip out of the dog that was eating. Didn't he say
something about how any level of aggression is absolutely not tolerated?


In other shows I've seen him say that he *does* allow warnings. And he
did correct the dog in his usual way.. he says "Shhh!", snaps his
fingers and points at the dog. You have to watch that clip very
carefully to notice it. As I recall, he's just off-camera for this, but
I did hear the SHHH and the finger snap just before the cut.

I don't see anything wrong with feeding the dog that is "most patient."
What he watches for is the dog that shows the most consistent "calm and
submissive" posture and he rewards that with food. I do something
similar with my four. They all have their own places to sit or down and
stay while I put their food down. If they all hold the stay, they all
get released to eat at the same time. If one breaks or whines or creeps
forward, I send them back farther and release them later than the
others. Big deal. The ones that finish first are not allowed to harass
the others that are still eating. This discipline routine establishes me
as the leader and sets limits on their interactions to avoid fights.
With 2 ACDs, a pit bull and a basset hound, I consider it critical to
establish this sort of dominance over them because a fight between any
two could become lethal in a big hurry.

the springer which was attacked when the family came to visit, for
example. That springer seemed to have a habit of butting in when he
interacted with the pit bull, and I saw him push it away at one point. My
guess is that he knew the pit would attack the springer when the family
arrived (he "warned" them that their presence might cause an attack) because
it had happened in the past.


This is common. Any time a trainer takes over a dog and schools him
successfully, the dog will behave for the trainer. Hand the dog back to
the owner and chances are that the dog will revert to their old behavior
because that is how they behaved in the past with that owner. Sometimes
something the owner does triggers the behavior, or inadvertantly rewards
the behavior, or sometimes the owner simply lets their dog get away with
the behavior. Cesar is especially good at reading the owners' behavior
to see what's triggering the dog - an inappropriate leash correction,
leash tension, body posture, etc. In the case of aggressive dogs, the
owners usually tense up in anticipation of an aggressive display, which
can trigger the dog to act aggressively. Those owners in that episode
were all tied up in knots, and Emily had a history of being aggressive
in their presence, so it was easy for him to predict that Emily would
have an outburst.

If he can work with people and teach them things that help them keep their
dogs, then I suppose it is better than the alternative. I'm not convinced
that he's 100% successful, though.


Like any trainer or behaviorist, he's only going to be as successful as
his clients are determined to follow through. When he works with a dog,
he does the initial intervention. In most cases, I've seen him tell the
clients that it will take x-number of months to truly extinguish
such-and-such behavior. His program always includes daily walks of 30
minutes to an hour. I suspect many of them lose their enthusiasm for
that before the time period is up. The cornerstones of his program for
dogs a Exercise, leadership and affection. "You can't expect a dog to
be calm/submissive unless you get rid of some of his excess energy
first." "The walk establishes your relationship with your dog." His
walks aren't just a walk, where the dog is allowed to sniff around and
do what he wants - they're what he calls "power walks" where you control
the dog's behavior. Collar high up on the neck to control the nose
("control the nose and you control the dog."). No sniffing, eliminating
or exploring allowed in the first 5 to 15 minutes of the walk, then you
allow that on your terms. The dog is not allowed to walk in front of the
owner. If the dog is high-energy and/or the owner's time is limited, the
dog wears a weighted backpack to consume more energy. Some dogs get a
treadmill to work off even more.

I am worried that some moron is going to try this with their dog.


Hence the warnings at the beginning of the show and after every single
commercial break.

This guy said that what a dog
aggressive dog needs is intense socialization, so let me take it to the
dog park, 'cause he'll get socialized.


You missed his dissertation on dog parks then. He is adamantly against
taking a dog, especially an "unbalanced" one (his word), to a dog park,
because most of the dogs there are "unbalanced" as well. That's why he
took Emily to his own pack for socialization.

I was surprised that the dog did
absolutely nothing when first introduced to the other dogs. I have
known several who would've completely lost it at that point.


I guess he knows what he's doing. But he did do quite a bit of
desensitization with the dog before he introduced her to the pack, and
he has a certain way of directing his dogs and entering the pen that
controls their behavior toward the newcomer. He had already established
his dominance over Emily, as well, but we don't know how many hours or
even days he worked with her prior to the introduction.

That show is not one that you can judge based on a single episode. I've
also found that in watching the repeats, I always pick up on something I
missed before, even on the third or fourth viewing. I'd just love to do
an apprenticeship under that guy to really see what his entire program
is. There are a lot of little subtleties that are almost totally lost in
the show, such as how to give a proper collar correction. From what I
can gather, it's always upward or up and inward, toward the owner -
never back, which he says is a cue for the dog to pull. But I'm not sure
of that because I've only seen tiny snippets of that.

Before making a judgment on the show, watch a number of episodes. Some
people see him working with a dog with a particular collar and say, "oh,
he puts pinch collars on the dogs." Someone else will see him working
with a 25-cent nylon slip lead and say "Oh, he works with those cheapie
shelter leads." From what I've seen, he usually works with whatever the
dog and owner are accustomed to, unless the dog has negative
connotations associated with the walk, and he'll switch equipment. He
will not walk a dog on a harness. I haven't seen him work with a head
halter, either. If the owner doesn't have an appropriate collar and
lead, he'll take any old lead, run the clip end through the handle to
make a slip collar and walk the dog on that. Bottom line - he doesn't
make a big deal about this collar or that or this lead or that. I kinda
like that.

Phew... I'll shut up now.

Tracy
  #6  
Old December 9th 04, 08:11 PM
ceb
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Tracy Doyle wrote in news:41B88F05.BEB5B818
@unspam.rag-time.com:

Give
affection only when the dog is being calm and submissive (not fearful,
aggressive, excited, etc.).


I like to give affection when the dog is being ridiculously silly.

--Catherine
& Zozo the clown
  #7  
Old December 9th 04, 09:15 PM
Christy
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"Tracy Doyle" wrote in message
...
Hi, everyone...

I've been watching this show very carefully from the beginnin g.Ithink
Cesar is an amazing handler, and he's exceptionally talented at working
with people, and believe me, he sees some real dumb-asses. He's always
pleasant and calm with them, never loses his temper. I don't know how he
does it.


I agree he does well with people. Though I don't agree with most of his
mumbo-jumbo on the way dogs think, he does communicate well with people and
many of his thoughts on THEIR behavior and thinking are spot-on.

.. You're only seeing a very
tiny snippet of what he does. You really have to watch many episodes to
start to get an idea of his whole rehabilitation program.


I've seen half a dozen episodes, and most of them were basically the same
thing - take your dog on walks, put weights on its back, hold its head up,
magic solution to your dog spinning/barking/aggression problems. I did see
one where he dealt with a shih tzu that wouldn't walk, and thought he
handled that one very well.

If you watch his show, he has several mantras that he keeps repeating.
One is "calm, assertive leadership" on the part of the owner, "rules,
boundaries and limitations" for the dog. He stresses that leadership and
dominance have nothing to do with cruelty, anger or aggression toward
the dog. Almost universally, his clients have never set limitations on
their dogs' behavior.


That part works for me.

Which leads to another one of his mantras: whatever state of mind the
dog is in when you give affection, you nurture that state of mind. Give
affection only when the dog is being calm and submissive (not fearful,
aggressive, excited, etc.).


That's where it starts to go wonky for me. But I don't support the "all dogs
must be submissive to me" philosophy.


FWIW, I didn't find that episode disconcerting at all. I found it
fascinating. Anyone who's dealt with dog-aggressive pit bulls knows that
once dog-aggression rears its ugly head, most all hope of that dog ever
being social with other dogs is supposed to be lost. What he was able to
accomplish with that dog flies in the face of everything I've been told
about the breed, and to me, is nothing short of a miracle. And he did
this all without the usual arsenal of the "hard dog" trainer - prong
collars, e-collars, extreme obedience training, etc.


I just have a very hard time accepting that that dog will be safe around
other dogs when Cesar is not actively working it. It nailed that springer
pretty quick when the visitors arrived, and was just as eager to go after
the dobie when it got home after 6 weeks of "rehabilitation."

Christy


  #8  
Old December 9th 04, 09:37 PM
Suja
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Tracy Doyle wrote:
I've been watching this show very carefully from the beginning. I think
Cesar is an amazing handler, and he's exceptionally talented at working
with people, and believe me, he sees some real dumb-asses.


This much is true. There are times (lots of times) when I would've
responded with 'What the hell were you thinking?'

If you watch his show, he has several mantras that he keeps repeating.
One is "calm, assertive leadership" on the part of the owner, "rules,
boundaries and limitations" for the dog.


While I agree with what he says, I think that he has a strange
definition of leadership. I for one don't think that it is a good thing
for a dog to be on the ground, tail tucked between its legs, which I saw
*several* times with Emily. There is a difference between submissive
and scared, and I think that what I saw crossed that line. Perhaps I am
a little sensitive about that topic, having had to work like mad to get
my dog to get over being overly timid.

I have seen every episode and have never EVER seen him alpha roll a dog!
Putting a dog in a down is not an alpha roll, and anyone mistaking that
for an alpha roll may want to do a bit more reading on that subject.


The simplest definition of an alpha roll I have seen advises the person
to roll the dog onto its back, and pin it by the throat until it submits
(stops moving around and does not make eye contact). Just like NILIF
(the original version is *extreme* to say the least), there are variants
on this.

I don't see anything wrong with feeding the dog that is "most patient."
What he watches for is the dog that shows the most consistent "calm and
submissive" posture and he rewards that with food.


I have no problem with this, although I don't think there is anything
inherently wrong or bad about animals that get excited at the prospect
of food. As long as it stays that way, and don't extend to attempting
to take food without permission, what's the big deal? FWIW, you and I
follow similar routines during feeding time. For me, it's because it
affords me the opportunity to practice previously trained behaviors.

The dog is not allowed to walk in front of the
owner.


This bit, I don't get. Not everything a dog does is based on power
play, and IME, where it walks in relation to the owner has little or
nothing to do with anything. My extremely timid dog walks well ahead of
everyone else. A friend's extremely submissive dog (she submissive
pees) does exactly the same thing. I have no problems with that as long
as they're walking on a loose leash. My much less timid dog walks
behind me, and often right next to me, but that's because she associates
a lot more value with being next to me than being up ahead, exploring.

Hence the warnings at the beginning of the show and after every single
commercial break.


My point is that there needs to be more emphasis on 'we've been working
on this x many hours for y many days to get these results'. They seem
to make him out to be some sort of miracle worker who gets overnight
results.

because most of the dogs there are "unbalanced" as well.


Boy, if that's not stupid....

Before making a judgment on the show, watch a number of episodes.


I have, and my opinion is that he is sometimes much rougher on the dogs
than needs to be. He may be a wonderful trainer who can get farther
than most of us, but IMO, the emphasis of the show should be on how much
work it is to rehab the dog, and how such problems can be prevented in
the first place.

But then, they can't call it 'The Dog Whisperer', can they?

Suja


  #9  
Old December 9th 04, 09:50 PM
ceb
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"Christy" wrote in news:sn2ud.1517$Z%1.810
@trnddc03:

how the dog is anxious or nervous because he doesn't
have a leader


I thought that this was kind of commonly accepted these days -- that the
pack needs a leader, and if you don't take on that role, the dog will, and
that that can cause anxiety in the dog. Not to mention in the person that
the dog is trying to lead!

--Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
  #10  
Old December 9th 04, 10:33 PM
Christy
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"ceb" wrote in message
...

I thought that this was kind of commonly accepted these days -- that the
pack needs a leader, and if you don't take on that role, the dog will, and
that that can cause anxiety in the dog. Not to mention in the person that
the dog is trying to lead!


While I do believe dogs can be anxious, I don't believe that "anxiety" is a
cause of most dog problems, which seemed to be a running theme in the shows
I saw (and in jar-jar's posts, coincidentally...) I think lack of training
and socialization causes problems, and that can be a result of an owner not
taking the role of leader. I just don't believe that a dog is sitting around
all anxious and worried because they don't have a pack leader; I just don't
think dogs think that way. They are more likely to do as you said, and take
the role themselves.

Christy


 




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